highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
I think the real issues are much more deep seated at a fundamental psychological and social level than that.

Profound changes occurred in England from the 12 th century on. Under Henry Plantagenet the Great Council was established. Under his rule the foundations of British Common law were established, for both criminal and civil proceedings. The Jury system dates from about that time. This was the foundation of British common Law, the basis of jurisprudence though out the English speaking world including the US. The continental European justice systems are based on Roman Law. The two do not coexist well. So the EU insistence on the supremacy of the European Court of Justice does not fit well in the UK and is a serious point of conflict.

In fact under UK law, civil and especially financial cases can be heard in any jurisdiction. In financial cases in particular there is heavy preference for financial cases to be tried in the UK. So actually the UK legal profession probably stand to loose the most in a post Brexit world.

During the thirteenth century Parliaments become more organized and by 1295 Parliament met at Westminster and was called the 'Commons" for the first time.

Of course there were stresses and strains, with the Oxford provisions having to wrung out of King John and later Magna Carta.

By 1668 the supremacy of Parliament was established.

By contrast the rule on continental Europe was in large degree despotic. So it is no wonder that the UK populace are restive as what they see as a very inferior system of governance and jurisprudence the other side of the channel.

The EU have been relentingly successful at keeping senior leadership positions out of the hands of anyone from the UK. I suspect they fear the light of more democratic voices.

I think it is fair to say that a lot of the UK populace feel highly disenfranchised by the EU systems of governance. In my view with good reason. This is a major point of conflict not well covered in the US press.

I spoke with my brother a couple or so hours ago. He has been leader of the Kent County Council now for many years. I don't think he will run next time. Anyhow he is a senior conservative politician with easy access to the leavers of power, as the KCC has the largest budget behind the central government in the UK.

He feels there is now the feeling of major change and that the UK will leave the EU without agreement on October 31 with or without an election. He feels that Boris is now barnstorming the country in full election mode, prepared for one at any time

The clock may run out, as Parliament will be in recess until September. Under current rules an election would likely be called with the passing of a no confidence motion, or the agreement of two thirds of the house of commons. That being the case it is hard to see election being held before October 31 and so the clock would run out and the UK exit October 31 with no agreement.

After that an election would very likely follow, that Boris Johnson would most likely win. In any event it would be years before the UK could rejoin the EU.

As far as the union is concerned, Wales is pro leave as is most of England, especially the old industrial heart land of the North and Midlands.

Scotland is strongly remain. However Boris has said he will not allow another independence referendum. In any case Scotland would have to float a new currency as it would take some time to not only get admitted to the EU but more especially the Euro. A UK government would not share Sterling currency, although they could not stop them using it. However they would have to buy sterling reserves and could not run a deficit.

Northern Ireland voted remain. However I don't think the locals on either side will go back to a hard border. So the border will be "run" and illegal profits made shipping goods across the border. Anyone who knows the Irish, can foretell exactly what will happen. Any attempt to impose a foreign army will be strongly resisted on both sides.

The EU will have the choice of tolerating it, or imposing border controls on goods and people entering mainland Europe from and EU country! Interesting times indeed.
AFIAK and as you probably know (because they don't teach this in the US),juries, Parliament and other aspects of government that you're attributing to Henry II were brought to Britain by the Nordic people, earlier than the 10th Century and implemented during Danelaw. The council of locals was called 'thing', with 'Allthing' being more the basis of Parliament. Juries were part of the 'thing' and according to Wiki, Eathelred the Unready had issued an order requiring the use of groups that acted as juries before he died in 1013. The Magna Carta provided legal protections, access to faster trials and formed much of the basis of the law we enjoy now, as well the the US Constitution and as Popes had done before, it was annulled by a Pope (Innocent III)

WRT Parliament being made supreme, England had several wars with itself by that time, too.

Nobody said government is simple.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
AFIAK and as you probably know (because they don't teach this in the US),juries, Parliament and other aspects of government that you're attributing to Henry II were brought to Britain by the Nordic people, earlier than the 10th Century and implemented during Danelaw. The council of locals was called 'thing', with 'Allthing' being more the basis of Parliament. Juries were part of the 'thing' and according to Wiki, Eathelred the Unready had issued an order requiring the use of groups that acted as juries before he died in 1013. The Magna Carta provided legal protections, access to faster trials and formed much of the basis of the law we enjoy now, as well the the US Constitution and as Popes had done before, it was annulled by a Pope (Innocent III)

WRT Parliament being made supreme, England had several wars with itself by that time, too.

Nobody said government is simple.
Yes, the British Isles had two periods of civil war. The series of wars known as the Wars of the Roses between the houses of Lancaster and York between 1455 and 1487.

The other was the English Civil War of 1642 to 1651. This was the war of the Cavaliers and Round Heads. This later ended with Charles the first loosing his head and the establishment of a Republic under Oliver Cromwell. This rapidly descended into a brutal oppressive puritanical dictatorship in which the UK lost much art and almost all of its early organs. As far as I know the only church organ to survive this period of destruction is the organ at St Mary's Rotherhithe on the Thames from where the Mayflower sailed with the pilgrims after the end of the civil war.

It was the lessons of this civil war after the establishment of the Restoration colonies under Charles the second that in my view had the greatest influence on the framing of the US constitution, especially the prohibition of State religion, religious freedom and division of powers. It also is from where the US got its fervent religiosity especially in the early years.

As far as early Norse parliaments, I think you are referring to the Tynwalds.

One of the most fascinating places I have ever visited is the Isle of Mann, or Manx. An island right in the middle of the Irish Sea which is a self governing British protectorate. It still has a Tynwald.

The island's parliament, Tynwald, is claimed to have been in continuous existence since 979 or earlier, purportedly making it the oldest continuously governing body in the world, though evidence supports a much later date.[36] Tynwald is a bicameral or tricameral legislature, comprising the House of Keys (directly elected by universal suffrage with a voting age of 16 years) and the Legislative Council (consisting of indirectly elected and ex-officio members). These two bodies also meet together in joint session as Tynwald Court.

The executive branch of government is the Council of Ministers, which is composed of members of the House of Keys. It is headed by the Chief Minister,

Vice-regal functions of the head of state are performed by a lieutenant governor.

This is a actually a distinct entity from what developed in in England in the years following the Norman Conquest of 1066.

Interestingly my best friend from School became secretary of the House of Keys, for six years or so. He developed an unusual capacity to quickly master languages and among other things became an expert linguist. I went to medical School and he to law school, both associated with the University of London.

Anyhow because of his gift of languages, soon out of law school he was engaged to draw up a good deal of the EUs trading and contract law. Originally it was the European Common Market and transmuted into the EEC we know today. Anyhow because of this knowledge he was recruited to the powerful position in the Isle of Man, which is a well known tax haven to advise how to get round the regulations he had constructed! Subsequently he has become a judge and used to adjudicate complex financial cases especially those with international connections. Now retired he had had an interesting life. He is an official translator of legal documents, and interestingly that includes translating from American and English and vice versa. For instance the word compensation has a totally different legal meaning in American and English. It was during his time in the Isle of Mann that I visited the place, and he was able to show me close up the workings of the Tynwald and especially the House of Keys.

Surprisingly my friend has become an ardent leaver of the EU strongly favoring Brexit. In his younger years he was a great enthusiast and promoter for the EU.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Overlord
The EU has become not what the UK signed up for and they will now leave and be open to the world for business.
We will see. England's economy is shakey at best, doesnt have a wealth of natural resourcess, and their foolish pride will interfere with making the right choices economically. Brexit was a bag full of lies, nothing more.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
We will see. England's economy is shakey at best, doesnt have a wealth of natural resourcess, and their foolish pride will interfere with making the right choices economically. Brexit was a bag full of lies, nothing more.
You could not be more wrong.

Getting shot of the EU will allow the UK to thrive. It is unacceptable to have lost control of its ability to trade freely. Brexit is not a pack of lies. The EU has turned the SE into a total nightmare, as all the trade comes through Dover and Folkstone in Kent. That has caused grid lock and ruined the quality of life. The other ports, especially Liverpool are already being readied for trade. This is the "Free Ports" scheme. Hopefully Liverpool will once again become the port that faces the Americas and is no longer a museum, which is what EU membership has made it. Brexit is not a bag full of lies, that foot falls to Drunker, Busker and Barmier. A very nasty trio the lot of them.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
You could not be more wrong.
I understand the sentiment. I've always thought the EU would end up as a mess, like a recipe including chocolate and snails. I just hope GB makes it through the Brexit process prosperous enough to justify the pain it will endure for a while.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Yes, the British Isles had two periods of civil war. The series of wars known as the Wars of the Roses between the houses of Lancaster and York between 1455 and 1487.

The other was the English Civil War of 1642 to 1651. This was the war of the Cavaliers and Round Heads. This later ended with Charles the first loosing his head and the establishment of a Republic under Oliver Cromwell. This rapidly descended into a brutal oppressive puritanical dictatorship in which the UK lost much art and almost all of its early organs. As far as I know the only church organ to survive this period of destruction is the organ at St Mary's Rotherhithe on the Thames from where the Mayflower sailed with the pilgrims after the end of the civil war.

It was the lessons of this civil war after the establishment of the Restoration colonies under Charles the second that in my view had the greatest influence on the framing of the US constitution, especially the prohibition of State religion, religious freedom and division of powers. It also is from where the US got its fervent religiosity especially in the early years.

As far as early Norse parliaments, I think you are referring to the Tynwalds.

One of the most fascinating places I have ever visited is the Isle of Mann, or Manx. An island right in the middle of the Irish Sea which is a self governing British protectorate. It still has a Tynwald.

The island's parliament, Tynwald, is claimed to have been in continuous existence since 979 or earlier, purportedly making it the oldest continuously governing body in the world, though evidence supports a much later date.[36] Tynwald is a bicameral or tricameral legislature, comprising the House of Keys (directly elected by universal suffrage with a voting age of 16 years) and the Legislative Council (consisting of indirectly elected and ex-officio members). These two bodies also meet together in joint session as Tynwald Court.

The executive branch of government is the Council of Ministers, which is composed of members of the House of Keys. It is headed by the Chief Minister,

Vice-regal functions of the head of state are performed by a lieutenant governor.

This is a actually a distinct entity from what developed in in England in the years following the Norman Conquest of 1066.

Interestingly my best friend from School became secretary of the House of Keys, for six years or so. He developed an unusual capacity to quickly master languages and among other things became an expert linguist. I went to medical School and he to law school, both associated with the University of London.

Anyhow because of his gift of languages, soon out of law school he was engaged to draw up a good deal of the EUs trading and contract law. Originally it was the European Common Market and transmuted into the EEC we know today. Anyhow because of this knowledge he was recruited to the powerful position in the Isle of Man, which is a well known tax haven to advise how to get round the regulations he had constructed! Subsequently he has become a judge and used to adjudicate complex financial cases especially those with international connections. Now retired he had had an interesting life. He is an official translator of legal documents, and interestingly that includes translating from American and English and vice versa. For instance the word compensation has a totally different legal meaning in American and English. It was during his time in the Isle of Mann that I visited the place, and he was able to show me close up the workings of the Tynwald and especially the House of Keys.

Surprisingly my friend has become an ardent leaver of the EU strongly favoring Brexit. In his younger years he was a great enthusiast and promoter for the EU.
Two of my ancestors came to America in 1654- I assume it was due to what was happening at the time. Turned out that he was a loyalist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Althing
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
You could not be more wrong.

Getting shot of the EU will allow the UK to thrive. It is unacceptable to have lost control of its ability to trade freely. Brexit is not a pack of lies. The EU has turned the SE into a total nightmare, as all the trade comes through Dover and Folkstone in Kent. That has caused grid lock and ruined the quality of life. The other ports, especially Liverpool are already being readied for trade. This is the "Free Ports" scheme. Hopefully Liverpool will once again become the port that faces the Americas and is no longer a museum, which is what EU membership has made it. Brexit is not a bag full of lies, that foot falls to Drunker, Busker and Barmier. A very nasty trio the lot of them.
What do you expect to get from this supposed ability to trade freely? Roughly half of UK trade is with EU and with a hard Brexit UK will loose it's free access to that market as well as having to renegotiate the many trade agreements that EU has. EU is never going to accept that UK have free access to EU market and not have a say in the trade agreements UK make.

I do not think that UK will sink into the sea come November, but a Brexit will cost in the form of reduced future growth.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
What do you expect to get from this supposed ability to trade freely? Roughly half of UK trade is with EU and with a hard Brexit UK will loose it's free access to that market as well as having to renegotiate the many trade agreements that EU has. EU is never going to accept that UK have free access to EU market and not have a say in the trade agreements UK make.

I do not think that UK will sink into the sea come November, but a Brexit will cost in the form of reduced future growth.
You have put your finger on one of the huge problems of EU membership. The UK do not want to be tied to a restrictive trade organization. One at that that feather beds French farmers in particular. The UK is, and has been for generations, much more open market and outward looking than the EU.

And by the way half the trade is not correct. The EU have goods for distribution to elsewhere included in goods transferred at Rotterdam which is a huge number. This exacerbates the problems in the South East corner of England. The open free ports scheme will really help solve that problem.

Brexit is the right move for the UK on many counts.
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
And by the way half the trade is not correct. The EU have goods for distribution to elsewhere included in goods transferred at Rotterdam which is a huge number. [my emphasis]This exacerbates the problems in the South East corner of England. The open free ports scheme will really help solve that problem.
It appears that the 'Rotterdam effect' is estimated to 2%, according https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/, which appears to be a legit site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Fact) that do cite https://www.ons.gov.uk/

In any case, EU is by far the UK's largest trading partner, and erecting trade barriers will cost.

"About 44% of UK exports in goods and services went to other countries in the EU in 2017—£274 billion out of £616 billion total exports.​
...​
53% of our imports into the UK came from other countries in the EU in 2017.​
It’s sometimes arguedthat these statistics overstate the proportion of UK exports that go to the EU, because a lot of goods pass through ports like Rotterdam before being shipped to a final destination outside the EU.​
Both the Office for National Statisticsand the government's review of our EU membershiphave concluded that it's hard to quantify the extent of this ‘Rotterdam effect’ or establish whether it's a serious problem for the statistics.​
The ONS has estimated that it may account for around 2% of all exported goods and services to the EU."​
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
It appears that the 'Rotterdam effect' is estimated to 2%, according https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/, which appears to be a legit site (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_Fact) that do cite https://www.ons.gov.uk/

In any case, EU is by far the UK's largest trading partner, and erecting trade barriers will cost.

"About 44% of UK exports in goods and services went to other countries in the EU in 2017—£274 billion out of £616 billion total exports.​
...​
53% of our imports into the UK came from other countries in the EU in 2017.​
It’s sometimes arguedthat these statistics overstate the proportion of UK exports that go to the EU, because a lot of goods pass through ports like Rotterdam before being shipped to a final destination outside the EU.​
Both the Office for National Statisticsand the government's review of our EU membershiphave concluded that it's hard to quantify the extent of this ‘Rotterdam effect’ or establish whether it's a serious problem for the statistics.​
The ONS has estimated that it may account for around 2% of all exported goods and services to the EU."​
Whatever the situation it is not worth putting up with their rules regulation and there absurd powerless parliament that is peripatetic between Brussels and Strasbourg on a monthly basis, known as the "Travelling Circus!"

It really is an absurd construct and organization now.
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
Whatever the situation it is not worth putting up with their rules regulation and there absurd powerless parliament that is peripatetic between Brussels and Strasbourg on a monthly basis, known as the "Travelling Circus!"

It really is an absurd construct and organization now.
I find that the monthly moving an offensive waste of money, time and other resources.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
What do you expect to get from this supposed ability to trade freely? Roughly half of UK trade is with EU and with a hard Brexit UK will loose it's free access to that market as well as having to renegotiate the many trade agreements that EU has. EU is never going to accept that UK have free access to EU market and not have a say in the trade agreements UK make.

I do not think that UK will sink into the sea come November, but a Brexit will cost in the form of reduced future growth.
Do you not see the part in bold italics as a problem? Why should EU be so restrictive? It would appear to be similar to one country nationalizing their trade and excluding a country, eh? I don't see the EU as wanting to allow outsiders to trade freely.

Why should be it be so hard for the EU and GB to hammer out some new trade deals without hard feelings? If they can't avoid the hard feelings, should those people even be in those positions?
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
Do you not see the part in bold italics as a problem? Why should EU be so restrictive? It would appear to be similar to one country nationalizing their trade and excluding a country, eh? I don't see the EU as wanting to allow outsiders to trade freely.

Why should be it be so hard for the EU and GB to hammer out some new trade deals without hard feelings? If they can't avoid the hard feelings, should those people even be in those positions?
The UK and EU have negotiated a Brexit deal that the former prime minister May failed three (I think) times to pass in the Parliament, and that deal also regulates UK access to the EU inner market after Brexit. So a hard Brexit is quite simply that UK rejects the negotiated deal, and that will have consequences if UK now just leaves end of October.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Why should be it be so hard for the EU and GB to hammer out some new trade deals without hard feelings? If they can't avoid the hard feelings, should those people even be in those positions?
The fundamental problems in trade economics are differing currencies and fiscal policies. By being a member of the EU the UK agreed to adherence to various policies that gave them significant deference in trade agreements despite its independent currency. And I think they got special deference due to the relative size of their economy as compared to most other EU nations. The UK is now seen as going rogue by withdrawing from the EU, so it seems like the trust level on trade agreements from the EU side is too low for giving the UK the benefit of any doubt.
 
T

Trell

Senior Audioholic
From https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-lose-commons-majority-as-phillip-lee-defects/

"LONDON — The governing Conservative Party lost its majority on Tuesday as one of its MPs defected to join the anti-Brexit Liberal Democrats.
Phillip Lee sat on the opposition benches on Tuesday as Prime Minister Boris Johnson stood to deliver a statement in the House of Commons. The move increases pressure on Johnson, whose majority was already looking shaky, but does not automatically trigger an election because that would require a separate vote."
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Ninja
From https://www.politico.eu/article/tories-lose-commons-majority-as-phillip-lee-defects/

"LONDON — The governing Conservative Party lost its majority on Tuesday as one of its MPs defected to join the anti-Brexit Liberal Democrats.
Phillip Lee sat on the opposition benches on Tuesday as Prime Minister Boris Johnson stood to deliver a statement in the House of Commons. The move increases pressure on Johnson, whose majority was already looking shaky, but does not automatically trigger an election because that would require a separate vote."
The clown car continues to go in circles...
 

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