Bought a Denon X3700H and need a few suggestions.

sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
You do have some gigantic speakers for a mere 6 foot distance from your mlp. The Pioneer mains and the surrounds could definitely justify a 200/300 W 8/4 Ohm rated power amp if the distances were doubled.

Still, I highly suggest a $10-$20 fan to help protect the very nice AVR-X3700H. If you have a multimeter, I would be curious about the "DC" resistance of the Pioneer S-T500. I am concerned with their "nominal impedance", that I think mostly would have been rated 4 Ohms but I couldn't find their owner's manual.

The multimeter can only measure DC resistance though if you tell us what it is, we could at least estimate the nominal impedacne.
As far as I could find out these speakers are a bit of a pair of freaks that were almost like the high end prototypes for the pioneer TZ-9/7s I think but they are kind of a underground collectors item for warm lush and big sound due in part to its bipoled 8" papercone woofers for the lows and a 4" mid polymer driver for mids and a largish 2" tweeter in-between with a waveguide over the tweeter.
(if I can compare them to the DCMs they are about 90% of the DCMs accuracy for instrument placement while having a 2X bigger sounding soundstage as far as I can tell at least)

The speakers have a max power rating of 130W If I remember right they weigh a whopping 85lbs each and the spec plate is on the back of one of them. When I install this new AVR ill post what the spec plate reads exact so you can find out more from there. :)

look for a post on audio karma for "Rare Pioneer S-T500's and TZ-7's" and that's where I found some of the info for these, and also on audio karma I found another post about these titled "Picked up a pair of Pioneer S-T500?????"
that has some more info if your interested. ;)
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The speakers have a max power rating of 130W If I remember right they weigh a whopping 85lbs each and the spec plate is on the back of one of them. When I install this new AVR ill post what the spec plate reads exact so you can find out more from there. :)
I found something that said it's "power handling" was 200 W but not sure about it came from a reliable source.

Regardless, my comments on their potentially low impedance such as 4 Ohms nominal is based on the crossover network schematic that show two woofers connected in parallel, no resistors, so their DC resistance would be very closed to their nominal impedance. So again, a simple multi-meter can tell us a lot.

If they are in fact 4 Ohms speakers, then the only thing that save your AVR is the 6 ft distance, that make it possible to give you enough spl without turn the volume up too much.

I am not saying your avr cannot do the job, but a fan on top is a cheap insurance. Again, this is just cautionary, not that you have to be too concerned about.
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
I found something that said it's "power handling" was 200 W but not sure about it came from a reliable source.

Regardless, my comments on their potentially low impedance such as 4 Ohms nominal is based on the crossover network schematic that show two woofers connected in parallel, no resistors, so their DC resistance would be very closed to their nominal impedance. So again, a simple multi-meter can tell us a lot.

If they are in fact 4 Ohms speakers, then the only thing that save your AVR is the 6 ft distance, that make it possible to give you enough spl without turn the volume up too much.

I am not saying your avr cannot do the job, but a fan on top is a cheap insurance. Again, this is just cautionary, not that you have to be too concerned about.
Thank you for the advice I do have a fan the AC Infinity T9 cooler was a 150$ AVR cooler with 3 140mm fans with a temp sensing auto power on that have around 200ish CFM max. :cool:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you for the advice I do have a fan the AC Infinity T9 cooler was a 150$ AVR cooler with 3 140mm fans with a temp sensing auto power on that have around 200ish CFM max. :cool:
Oh sorry I missed that.. Sounds like you know what you are doing.
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
So I got the receiver in the mail yesterday and have had it setup for a day now and here are my early impressions, The AVR processing is great the sound is all around me and audible from each speaker clearly and crisp. The bass is tightly managed it sounds punchy and not slow the individual crossovers seems to help in that regard to get a bit more than 80hz out of my towers.

Now for the not so great, the volume has to be turned up about 10-20db more than my old receiver and it runs HOT even with the AC Infinity T9 cooler on it I'm seeing temps above 86F at moderate volumes whereas my old receiver didn't hit those temps even maxed out.

I think I'm still gonna splurge for a high quality aftermarket amp if for no other reason than it will make the temps more manageable and reduce the volume I have to turn the receiver up to to get a comfortable listening level. :cool:
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Now for the not so great, the volume has to be turned up about 10-20db more than my old receiver and it runs HOT even with the AC Infinity T9 cooler on it I'm seeing temps above 86F at moderate volumes whereas my old receiver didn't hit those temps even maxed out.
I think you are find, 86F, if aimed on the warmest spot of the enclosure is not warm at all.

It is also important to know that you cannot go by the volume setting for the spl when comparing two different amps of different brands.

The 3700h is definitely more powerful (not significant though) then the Pioneer 1130, based on actual lab measurements. You need to crank the volume up higher because if the different design, assuming you were listening to the same level, playing the same contents.

I am all for external amps, just know that you are buying not because of the volume you have to set to, and/or the temperature thing. You can use the Denon to drive a 1,000 W amp, if the gain is the same (about 29 dB), the volume will be the same, and will be even higher if you use an ext. amps of lower gain.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
So I got the receiver in the mail yesterday and have had it setup for a day now and here are my early impressions, The AVR processing is great the sound is all around me and audible from each speaker clearly and crisp. The bass is tightly managed it sounds punchy and not slow the individual crossovers seems to help in that regard to get a bit more than 80hz out of my towers.

Now for the not so great, the volume has to be turned up about 10-20db more than my old receiver and it runs HOT even with the AC Infinity T9 cooler on it I'm seeing temps above 86F at moderate volumes whereas my old receiver didn't hit those temps even maxed out.

I think I'm still gonna splurge for a high quality aftermarket amp if for no other reason than it will make the temps more manageable and reduce the volume I have to turn the receiver up to to get a comfortable listening level. :cool:
Makes no sense that you need to raise volume 10-20dB over another for the same volume unless one or both avr lacks calibration....and 86F isn't bad. 86C would be bad :)
Once calibrated, the reading on the volume scale should be the same with the power amp, altho you would perhaps get 3dB more headroom/volume if you double your amp power....if your speakers don't get in the way.
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
My local pawn shop has had this ATI-At2005 5 channel amp sitting for 600$ that I've had my eye on for a at least a month or 2, or if that does not work out he has a crown 1 amplifier for 200$ish dollars that I could grab either of which would help reduce the load on the internal amplification. My fronts are crossed over at 40hz, my center is crossed over at 80hz, my surrounds are crossed over at 60hz, and my surround backs are crossed over at 80hz.

It might be just because the differences between my old avr only accepting 16bit depth max so now that this new receiver can accept 24 bit, I need to turn it up for the new levels of dynamic range because it gets plenty loud during some things and not for others, so it makes sense that the dynamics might just be wider now.

One thing I like is the bass and volume is super contained to my listening area I cannot hear it through my walls even though its cranked up where I'm sitting, that's very impressive.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
My local pawn shop has had this ATI-At2005 5 channel amp sitting for 600$ that I've had my eye on for a at least a month or 2, or if that does not work out he has a crown 1 amplifier for 200$ish dollars that I could grab either of which would help reduce the load on the internal amplification. My fronts are crossed over at 40hz, my center is crossed over at 80hz, my surrounds are crossed over at 60hz, and my surround backs are crossed over at 80hz.

It might be just because the differences between my old avr only accepting 16bit depth max so now that this new receiver can accept 24 bit, I need to turn it up for the new levels of dynamic range because it gets plenty loud during some things and not for others, so it makes sense that the dynamics might just be wider now.

One thing I like is the bass and volume is super contained to my listening area I cannot hear it through my walls even though its cranked up where I'm sitting, that's very impressive.
Turn it up because you have a 24bit recording? Eh? You'd be doing well just getting full dynamic range from 16bit, which few recordings even take advantage of.
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
Turn it up because you have a 24bit recording? Eh? You'd be doing well just getting full dynamic range from 16bit, which few recordings even take advantage of.
during some things the volume is compressed in the audio stream so bit depth isn't an issue but during some shows there is a very large dynamic range between the quiet scenes and loud scenes so the bit depth is partially responsible for that, or am I misunderstanding what bit depth is?

also I didn't know that 16 bit was that uncommon still, I figure that CDs can do 16 bit depth so I thought it was pretty common.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
during some things the volume is compressed in the audio stream so bit depth isn't an issue but during some shows there is a very large dynamic range between the quiet scenes and loud scenes so the bit depth is partially responsible for that, or am I misunderstanding what bit depth is?
The dynamic range is just that, the difference between the quiet and loud scenes, but doubt your 24bit source has any more range involved than your 16bit. Maybe if you're in a recording studio and are manipulating the recording would the higher bit rate come into play, but in released content I wouldn't expect any particular difference....
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
The dynamic range is just that, the difference between the quiet and loud scenes, but doubt your 24bit source has any more range involved than your 16bit. Maybe if you're in a recording studio and are manipulating the recording would the higher bit rate come into play, but in released content I wouldn't expect any particular difference....
ah I see well than I think the only thing making the volume different is that the processing is better on this AVR than I'm used to so the rear channels are more audible as a result, I perceive the avr as being quieter when in actuality its just that I'm used to the rear channels being quieter so I perceive it to be quieter from the front channels not standing out quite as much, or something like that I don't know but it sounds better but the channel volume is different for sure.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
ah I see well than I think the only thing making the volume different is that the processing is better on this AVR than I'm used to so the rear channels are more audible as a result, I perceive the avr as being quieter when in actuality its just that I'm used to the rear channels being quieter so I perceive it to be quieter from the front channels not standing out quite as much, or something like that I don't know but it sounds better but the channel volume is different for sure.
Differences in mixing/mastering or the actual content more likely account for volume differences, possibly just the processing you're utilizing but not likely huge differences there among different avrs of relatively similar setup....
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
ah I see well than I think the only thing making the volume different is that the processing is better on this AVR than I'm used to so the rear channels are more audible as a result, I perceive the avr as being quieter when in actuality its just that I'm used to the rear channels being quieter so I perceive it to be quieter from the front channels not standing out quite as much, or something like that I don't know but it sounds better but the channel volume is different for sure.
HD is right, 16 bit of dynamic is pretty much all you need for real world use, though for other reasons I would go for the best available, ie.32 bit and DSD512 capable DACs currently. There are many reasons why the 24 bit DACs cannot get you more than 16 bit dynamic but it will take pages to explain. For a quick read on the basic ideas, try this:
The 24-Bit Delusion - Mojo Audio (mojo-audio.com)

You an quickly browse through some of the measurements on ASR and see for yourself that very few can really do more than 16 bit dynamic range, even if the source contents for recorded for the range.

Here's just an example, 18 bit for a $15,000 AV processor:
StormAudio ISP 16 MK2 Review (AV Processor) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Note that the reviewer called that nearly 18 bit "decent", 24 bit? I don't recall seeing any, not even the best dedicated two channel DACs measured. The current best among all those measured managed 21 bit and that is a two channel dedicated desktop DAC. There is no chance for any AVR or AVP to measure anywhere close to being that good.


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sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
HD is right, 16 bit of dynamic is pretty much all you need for real world use, though for other reasons I would go for the best available, ie.32 bit and DSD512 capable DACs currently. There are many reasons why the 24 bit DACs cannot get you more than 16 bit dynamic but it will take pages to explain. For a quick read on the basic ideas, try this:
The 24-Bit Delusion - Mojo Audio (mojo-audio.com)

You an quickly browse through some of the measurements on ASR and see for yourself that very few can really do more than 16 bit dynamic range, even if the source contents for recorded for the range.

Here's just an example, 18 bit for a $15,000 AV processor:
StormAudio ISP 16 MK2 Review (AV Processor) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Note that the reviewer called that nearly 18 bit "decent", 24 bit? I don't recall seeing any, not even the best dedicated two channel DACs measured. The current best among all those measured managed 21 bit and that is a two channel dedicated desktop DAC. There is no chance for any AVR or AVP to measure anywhere close to being that good.


View attachment 46762
Oh well this is interesting thank you ill read up on this, cheers ;)
 

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