Bought a Denon X3700H and need a few suggestions.

sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
Current setup: Pioneer VSX1130-K (Upgrading with Aforementioned Denon X3700H) Receiver with AC Infinity T9 cooler; Vizio OLED55-H1 TV; Center Channel Boston Acoustics VR12; Mains Pioneer S-T500; Surround DCM TP-260; Surround Back Dayton Audio T652-AIR; Subwoofers 2X Dayton Audio SUB-1200; Turntable Audio Technica AT-LP60 with an external (Dynasty ProAudio DA-UA2D) preamp and a LP GEAR CFN3600LE stylus (In the process of rebuilding a recently acquired Technics SL-1200).

Things im looking for are as follows;

- Good value Atmos speakers, either wall/corner or directly to ceiling mounting.
- Suggestions on a good 5 or 7 channel amp under 1000$ (was looking at the new emotiva bassx or the outlaw model 5000).
- Suggestions on any settings I should set/not set.
- Lastly a good tv stand to mount my tv (preferably around 3'4" to 5' in height with a solid base and at least 3 sturdy shelves for a center channel and my avr and for the amp of choice) My tv weighs a hefty 45 lbs on its own and is a VESA of 300x200 Mount Pattern.

 
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Benni777

Benni777

Junior Audioholic
To answer a few of your question

1. Value atmos speakers: Look into Emotiva Vaulta, RSL C34E, SVS Elevation
2. Amp under $1000 is tough: Look at Emotiva BasX, Outlaw, OSD Black
3. Setting, I used Direct almost 100% of the time.
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Full Audioholic
Hi,

If you are just mounting on wall or ceilling and not in ceiling, how do you like those B652 Air's? They're about as high value per cost as you can find since they're a fair speaker for $25 each which is really nuts when you think about it. Plus they're sealed so no port stuff to worry about and they are competent with 6.5" drivers and the updated tweeter. If you just want value, these sound good and are as cheap as you can get likely, new at least.

Do you need an amp or do you just want an amp? Looks like your listening position is very close to your speakers, they probably don't need 5~15 watts tops at loud levels near you like that. Your upcoming AVR can drive all your speakers. Instead of a costly amp, I would argue for better subs. Or I would argue just for better, more efficient speakers rather than pay $2200 total (AVR + amp) to drive value speakers and stuff. I'd suggest opposite, spend a bunch on good speakers and then just have enough to drive them with headroom/transients/dynamics and you're set. Just an opinion.

Settings depends on the content. You may want to upmix legacy content. You may want direct on some content. If you want to use your surround on everything you send to your source, well, you'll be using an upmixer which is a big part of having the AVR too. So just go through all them with different content and see what you enjoy the most. There's no default, it's preference.

I see room treatment! :cool:

Very best,
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
Hi,

If you are just mounting on wall or ceilling and not in ceiling, how do you like those B652 Air's? They're about as high value per cost as you can find since they're a fair speaker for $25 each which is really nuts when you think about it. Plus they're sealed so no port stuff to worry about and they are competent with 6.5" drivers and the updated tweeter. If you just want value, these sound good and are as cheap as you can get likely, new at least.

Do you need an amp or do you just want an amp? Looks like your listening position is very close to your speakers, they probably don't need 5~15 watts tops at loud levels near you like that. Your upcoming AVR can drive all your speakers. Instead of a costly amp, I would argue for better subs. Or I would argue just for better, more efficient speakers rather than pay $2200 total (AVR + amp) to drive value speakers and stuff. I'd suggest opposite, spend a bunch on good speakers and then just have enough to drive them with headroom/transients/dynamics and you're set. Just an opinion.

Settings depends on the content. You may want to upmix legacy content. You may want direct on some content. If you want to use your surround on everything you send to your source, well, you'll be using an upmixer which is a big part of having the AVR too. So just go through all them with different content and see what you enjoy the most. There's no default, it's preference.

I see room treatment! :cool:

Very best,
I cant do in ceiling unfortunately I live in an apartment (they said no holes that cannot be patched) so those B652 Airs sound perfect for what I need. (can you recommend a good mounting setup?)

I would like an amp because I can hear my current avr (pioneer vsx 1130k) struggle with my setup, it makes the highs too sharp and I can hear the amp clip at reference volume during films. I got a used Denon X3700H for a great deal (790$) so a good 600-700$ amp wouldn't be too crazy for plenty of extra headroom (for future upgrades).

Also cheers for the advice. :cool:
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Full Audioholic
Hi,

What are the distances from all potential speaker locations (approximately within ~1 foot) to your listening position?

These are pretty hefty and will hold bookshelves wherever you want and can aim:


When you say your treble is fatiguing, that's a function of (1) your room and (2) your speakers (specifically the tweeter type). You can tame treble with acoustic treatment. Are you sure the amp is clipping at reference in films? What is happening?

The Outlaw and BasX3 line will handle this for under $1k to offload your more important speakers. Your surrounds are not important, they do little, your LCR does almost all of it. So if you're going to use an amp, off load your LCR to your new power amp.

Very best,
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Rather than get something like the Outlaw 5000, which is fairly similar to what your avr already has for amp section, maybe go significantly (3dB or better) more power just on the mains with three channels of amp....maybe three Outlaw 2220s.
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
Hi,

What are the distances from all potential speaker locations (approximately within ~1 foot) to your listening position?

These are pretty hefty and will hold bookshelves wherever you want and can aim:


When you say your treble is fatiguing, that's a function of (1) your room and (2) your speakers (specifically the tweeter type). You can tame treble with acoustic treatment. Are you sure the amp is clipping at reference in films? What is happening?

The Outlaw and BasX3 line will handle this for under $1k to offload your more important speakers. Your surrounds are not important, they do little, your LCR does almost all of it. So if you're going to use an amp, off load your LCR to your new power amp.

Very best,
My speakers are as follows roughly; 6 ft for fronts; the surrounds are around 3-4 ft away; the subs and surround backs are 6.5 ft give or take a ft; and lastly the center is around 5 ft away. (assuming I get atmos speakers they will be roughly 6.8-7.8 ft away)

the tweeter compositions are as follows; Center silk dome 1"; Fronts (not sure if aluminum or something else) wave guided 1"; Surrounds are another silk dome 1" and lastly my Surround backs are AMT 1"x1"

I'm not 100% certain that my amp is clipping at reference but some things don't sound right during intense high dynamic scenes, also I can hear electrical hum or hiss at high volume that an external amp with proper ground and spare power will help with or eliminate entirely.

I was looking at the emotiva BasX A7 mainly because not one of my speakers is poor quality so I want to give them a healthy power supply to bring the best out of them in extended stereo mode or during music sessions with upmixing.

Cheers :)

P.S. I like the mount you sent me, I found one for ceiling mount if you have an opinion on this
https://www.amazon.com/SPS-506B-Horizontal-Adjustment-Stainless-Surrounding/dp/B08CC317QL/ref=sr_1_20
 
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sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
Rather than get something like the Outlaw 5000, which is fairly similar to what your avr already has for amp section, maybe go significantly (3dB or better) more power just on the mains with three channels of amp....maybe three Outlaw 2220s.
Well originally I was going to go for broke and get the emotiva XPA-7 Gen 3 for a whopping 2000$ but I decided to spend the money elsewhere so I'm looking for a healthy clean alternative to the internal amp on this avr which albeit is not lacking is not exactly clean (noise floor and quality).

I'll look into the outlaw 2220s as an option aswell, cheers. ;)
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
I found a potential TV stand, but I have not heard of this company so if anyone has any input feel free. ;)

TV Stand
 
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K

Kleinst

Full Audioholic
I used this

Amazon.com: FITUEYES Universal TV Stand/Base Swivel Tabletop TV Stand with Mount for 50 to 80 inch Flat Screen TV 100 Degree Swivel, 4 Level Height Adjustable,Tempered Glass Base,Holds up to 143lbs Screens: Electronics

Allowed me to fit my larger Infinity RC263 center under the TV just fine

I think the 3 2220's are a nice option to look at. If you get a used hell of a deal on Outlaw 5000, etc. then snag it. But I kind of agree go 2000WPC or just stay with the Denon if paying full price for the AMP. If a deal, great, try it and you can flip it if you don't like it
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Well originally I was going to go for broke and get the emotiva XPA-7 Gen 3 for a whopping 2000$ but I decided to spend the money elsewhere so I'm looking for a healthy clean alternative to the internal amp on this avr which albeit is not lacking is not exactly clean (noise floor and quality).

I'll look into the outlaw 2220s as an option aswell, cheers. ;)
Doubt the avr has issues you mention with the amp sectionbut using the different avr won't have issues your Pioneer has...none of my avrs has that issue
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Full Audioholic
My speakers are as follows roughly; 6 ft for fronts; the surrounds are around 3-4 ft away; the subs and surround backs are 6.5 ft give or take a ft; and lastly the center is around 5 ft away. (assuming I get atmos speakers they will be roughly 6.8-7.8 ft away)
The sensivity of your speakers, each one individually without reinforcement is the value in dB at 1 meter (3 feet). You lose around -6db each time you double the distance. You get +3db each time you double the wattage (power). So all your speakers at 3 feet are already hitting over 80+ db on just 1 watt of power. Those speakers at 6 feet are losing -6db, but you get it right back going from 1 watt to 4 watts. So you're back to over 80db for just 4 watts. The subs don't count in this. The center is under 5 feet, so same as your mains, 4 watts or less and its over reference. Your atmos even at 10 feet are over 80db at 16 watts or less. Easy. Proximity matters a ton. You're so close to them that even the inefficient ones will be powered very well with room to spare. Anything 10 watts or less (which is literally ALL your speakers except potentially your farthest atmos speakers, maybe, hard maybe) will have +10db of headroom/dynamics/transient peaks from the AVR alone.

You'd be far, far better off getting big, better subs, and simply spending more on room treatment than getting power amps for listening distances like this; or spending it on higher quality speakers with efficiency. You're really not getting much by getting power amps in this setup based on your listening distance.

Very best,
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
The sensivity of your speakers, each one individually without reinforcement is the value in dB at 1 meter (3 feet). You lose around -6db each time you double the distance. You get +3db each time you double the wattage (power). So all your speakers at 3 feet are already hitting over 80+ db on just 1 watt of power. Those speakers at 6 feet are losing -6db, but you get it right back going from 1 watt to 4 watts. So you're back to over 80db for just 4 watts. The subs don't count in this. The center is under 5 feet, so same as your mains, 4 watts or less and its over reference. Your atmos even at 10 feet are over 80db at 16 watts or less. Easy. Proximity matters a ton. You're so close to them that even the inefficient ones will be powered very well with room to spare. Anything 10 watts or less (which is literally ALL your speakers except potentially your farthest atmos speakers, maybe, hard maybe) will have +10db of headroom/dynamics/transient peaks from the AVR alone.

Very best,
Ah I see so that is the principle of "near field listening" I take it.
my lowest sensitivity speaker is 89db 1w1m If I recall correctly and my highest is 95+db 1w1m I think so I should be fine there, both of my subs are plenty loud in fact I turn them down quite a bit during movies they are at 120 db at 25hz (peak) if I remember right.

As far as treatment goes how's this, or do you have a better more cost effective alternative

Also as @lovinthehd pointed out maybe my pioneer is just a bad unit if I'm getting noise when turning up the volume. cheers for the explanation :cool:
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
huh then I'm looking forward to that :)
Well I omitted "perhaps"....but also it can be the external amp introduces ground hum/additional noise issues as well. I'd simply use the new avr alone initially before buying amps....
 
MalVeauX

MalVeauX

Full Audioholic
Heya,

Again, not trying to say "don't buy an amp, ever" I'm just sharing the info so that you know what you're actually spending your money on. If it's not a big purchase for you, then by all means, do it! Have fun! But if this is a significant purchase, and you put all that on an amplifier, you're really just not getting a lot of value back from that purchase with your current setup with your listening distance. This would be difference, if your listening distances were over 10~12 feet each. Big difference then. But that's not the case. So looking over your stuff, you could do better in a lot of those speakers and those subs. But, if you're happy with how it sounds and performs currently, then there's zero need to replace any of it! The beauty of a system is, if it sounds good, stick with it! Don't worry about "upgrading" anything if it sounds good as it is.

For treatment, a big part of treatment would be to instead invest in a calibrated microphone (example UMIK-1) and free REW software and start measuring your room response and speaker response. Identify nulls and modes and optimize placement for them. Identify first reflections and measure with and without treatment to get it optimized. You can build your own acoustic treatment, but the kind you do is based on what you need. If treble is hot, I'm guessing your mids are in a null or something is lower there, and so you turn it up to hear dialog and the result is the much higher peaking treble is sizzling hot. Measuring your room would reveal what's happening so you could deal with it. It may be boundary inference and you can start treating it with different options.

If you still want to spend everyone on one powerful amp; do it! Just make sure its one you can get service on in 10 years maybe. That way you're building a great source system that can power any speakers in the future. But that's not the case if you're not able to get service for it later on. This changes place to places, so its worth just looking into how warranty works and how post-warrant service works and if its even possible.

By the way, if you have any old/other AVR's laying around, you can use them as stereo amps in direct/pure mode. You can output pre-amp from your X3700H to any input of your choice on an AVR and set it to Direct/Pure and its basically a stereo amp with the power of that AVR in 2 channels driven. Great way to re-purpose things you may have laying around.

Very best,
 
sizzam

sizzam

Audioholic
Heya,

Again, not trying to say "don't buy an amp, ever" I'm just sharing the info so that you know what you're actually spending your money on. If it's not a big purchase for you, then by all means, do it! Have fun! But if this is a significant purchase, and you put all that on an amplifier, you're really just not getting a lot of value back from that purchase with your current setup with your listening distance. This would be difference, if your listening distances were over 10~12 feet each. Big difference then. But that's not the case. So looking over your stuff, you could do better in a lot of those speakers and those subs. But, if you're happy with how it sounds and performs currently, then there's zero need to replace any of it! The beauty of a system is, if it sounds good, stick with it! Don't worry about "upgrading" anything if it sounds good as it is.

For treatment, a big part of treatment would be to instead invest in a calibrated microphone (example UMIK-1) and free REW software and start measuring your room response and speaker response. Identify nulls and modes and optimize placement for them. Identify first reflections and measure with and without treatment to get it optimized. You can build your own acoustic treatment, but the kind you do is based on what you need. If treble is hot, I'm guessing your mids are in a null or something is lower there, and so you turn it up to hear dialog and the result is the much higher peaking treble is sizzling hot. Measuring your room would reveal what's happening so you could deal with it. It may be boundary inference and you can start treating it with different options.

If you still want to spend everyone on one powerful amp; do it! Just make sure its one you can get service on in 10 years maybe. That way you're building a great source system that can power any speakers in the future. But that's not the case if you're not able to get service for it later on. This changes place to places, so its worth just looking into how warranty works and how post-warrant service works and if its even possible.

By the way, if you have any old/other AVR's laying around, you can use them as stereo amps in direct/pure mode. You can output pre-amp from your X3700H to any input of your choice on an AVR and set it to Direct/Pure and its basically a stereo amp with the power of that AVR in 2 channels driven. Great way to re-purpose things you may have laying around.

Very best,
Thanks again for more great advice. :cool:

Well I wanted an amp for several reasons but one is the future upgradability as stated in the last paragraph I'll look into getting an amplifier with good support (I've heard emotivas are pretty nice in that regard). But the other reason I wanted to get this receiver in the first place is to play around with amps and see how they change the sound of my setup in different ways, and lastly I think aftermarket amps just look cooler. :cool:

I was looking at getting a calibration mic like the UMIK-2 or UMIK-1 and doing some testing but I was also considering an Anthem brand mic with their proprietary software.

Also I think I've solved the hissing and sharp high issue its not the amp being taxed but the internal DAC not being able to keep up with the DSP corrections (digital noise reduction, auto sound retriever and hi-bit 24 seem to be the culprit settings aswell as the MCACC EQ preferring to add more treble than necessary).

After all you and the other forum members have given me much food for thought and I thank you for it.
I'll still be on this thread for any more suggestions that I can use but I'm gonna go dink around with my current receivers settings and see if I can eek out any more sound quality.;):)
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks again for more great advice. :cool:

Well I wanted an amp for several reasons but one is the future upgradability as stated in the last paragraph I'll look into getting an amplifier with good support (I've heard emotivas are pretty nice in that regard). But the other reason I wanted to get this receiver in the first place is to play around with amps and see how they change the sound of my setup in different ways, and lastly I think aftermarket amps just look cooler. :cool:

I was looking at getting a calibration mic like the UMIK-2 or UMIK-1 and doing some testing but I was also considering an Anthem brand mic with their proprietary software.

Also I think I've solved the hissing and sharp high issue its not the amp being taxed but the internal DAC not being able to keep up with the DSP corrections (digital noise reduction, auto sound retriever and hi-bit 24 seem to be the culprit settings aswell as the MCACC EQ preferring to add more treble than necessary).

After all you and the other forum members have given me much food for thought and I thank you for it.
I'll still be on this thread for any more suggestions that I can use but I'm gonna go dink around with my current receivers settings and see if I can eek out any more sound quality.;):)
You do have some gigantic speakers for a mere 6 foot distance from your mlp. The Pioneer mains and the surrounds could definitely justify a 200/300 W 8/4 Ohm rated power amp if the distances were doubled.

Still, I highly suggest a $10-$20 fan to help protect the very nice AVR-X3700H. If you have a multimeter, I would be curious about the "DC" resistance of the Pioneer S-T500. I am concerned with their "nominal impedance", that I think mostly would have been rated 4 Ohms but I couldn't find their owner's manual.

The multimeter can only measure DC resistance though if you tell us what it is, we could at least estimate the nominal impedacne.
 

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