Bose

[zumbo]

I don't see any similarity and don't understand why you even brought that up. Bose are just speakers. Harley's are a lifestyle.

Motorcycles are a lifestyle.

Harley's are for middle-aged people who all-of-a-sudden think they want to become bikers. Or, for people who are just too dumb to ride a motorcycle with some thoughtful engineering. A Harley loaded to the max like my bike cost twice what my bike did. My bike is faster, coreners better, stops faster, rides smoother, heavier, has more room, and on and on.

But, come to think of it, doesn't Bose have a "Lifestyle" too.

 

[johnu]

Some excerpts from the longest quote that brought a smile to me.

FREQUENCY RESPONSE specs are not ever offered by Bose because one of the founding principles was that they offer little or no value to the audiophile!

There is no substitute for controlled well defined bass and clear mids and highs. Good wire can accomplish that! It's been proven.

Hanging the 901's from ceilings more than ten feet from the ground is not recommended.

Forget about subwoofering the 901 as it is not necessary in the right room! Put your wallet away and be happy with the fact that you own a fantastic 40Hz gut puncher!

The fact that their current price is still within reason for such great performance at $1500 is a credit to Bose.

Compare the speakers to the best of the best like the B&W NAUTILUS 801's and 802's but also the biggest most expensive Tannoys, Martin Logans, Definitives, JBL's, Allisons, Bostons, Polks, Legacy's or any other brand you can think of as I have and see if you agree with my findings. Isn't it most interesting that some of these lovely sounding models cost up to ten times the price of the 901 or more! I did compare my Bose to these speakers! Now you're listening to music with all of its subtleties and nuances the way it was meant to be heard!

 

[Resident Loser]

Well...

...I tend to agree with parts of the review...or at least this part(and I paraphrase)...I wonder how many "critics" have actually heard a properly set up pair of 901s? Few, I'd reckon...

I wonder just how many audience members would respond to a statement like...Home Theater is a waste of time, it has drastically changed a form of entertainment, undone an entire segment of an industry and put people out of work...and the worst, IMO, it has diluted hi-fi products; much in the same manner the soccer-moms and outdoorsy wannabees have nearly ruined the 4WD market...Not only that, but it seems you need two systems...one for your music as a hi-fi medium(because it's the sacrosanct domain of audiophiles) and one for the mechanical lizards and Special FX(apparently it's OK to mangle FR and other parameters in THAT case)...seems like one should be enough...or is there something wrong with both?

jimHJJ(...ponder, ponder, ponder...)

 

[bobman1235]

Motorcycles are a lifestyle.

Harley's are for middle-aged people who all-of-a-sudden think they want to become bikers. Or, for people who are just too dumb to ride a motorcycle with some thoughtful engineering. A Harley loaded to the max like my bike cost twice what my bike did. My bike is faster, coreners better, stops faster, rides smoother, heavier, has more room, and on and on.

I agree 95% with that.... but Harleys do look and sound nice If that's what you care about, and hav ea lot of money to burn, go for it... Hmm, that's kind of another parallel to Bose -- they look nice and cost too much, so if that's what you want, there ya go!

Honestly, if I had the money, I'd get a Harley AND a sports bike... despite the fact that every ounce of logic in the world tells me Harleys aren't worth even half of what they cost, and I'll be fixin it more than riding it... Guess the marketing machine worked for me!

 

[zipper]

R&R ninja....................not sure why you would lump Rolex into the same conversation with Blows. It's essentially a nice piece of jewelry that keeps time superbly..............unless perhaps you bought a "white van" version.

 

[flyv65]

I don't see any similarity and don't understand why you even brought that up. Bose are just speakers. Harley's are a lifestyle.

But they both provide technologically "stunted" products at grossly inflated prices (albiet, prices the market continues to be willing to pay). I'm not sure you can say Bose *doesn't* sell a lifestyle product like HD: a lot of flashy marketing; the cachet of exclusivity through exorbitant pricing; and the total disregard of measured performance.

Bryan...as Barnum said, "no-one ever went broke underestimating the public"...

 

[zumbo]

I agree 95% with that.... but Harleys do look and sound nice If that's what you care about, and hav ea lot of money to burn, go for it... Hmm, that's kind of another parallel to Bose -- they look nice and cost too much, so if that's what you want, there ya go!

Honestly, if I had the money, I'd get a Harley AND a sports bike... despite the fact that every ounce of logic in the world tells me Harleys aren't worth even half of what they cost, and I'll be fixin it more than riding it... Guess the marketing machine worked for me!

You might want to look at a fully loaded Honda VTX 1800 or a Kawasaki Vulcan 2000. These bikes look cleaner and have smoother lines than Harleys. And the sound of the Kawasaki is awesome.

A Harley on the showroom don't look like one you see out. All that chrome doesn't come on the bike. That's extra.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

The comments about Harley's merely show no one understands. You can compare them to Bose as "stunted technologically" or as mere media hype, but as I said, that just shows no one understands the "Harley mystique."

I would never own a Japanese bike. Corner better? Faster? Probably. But what's the point? You can't use it. There are speed limits. To me owning one of those kid killer race bikes is like a soccer mom owning an SUV. It's never used as it was designed to be and becomes mere show. Harley's are built for cruising, not racing, and that's what they are used for.

Are Jap bikes better? Maybe. But when you own a Yamaha, do you belong to the Yamaha community? When you see another Yamaha do you wave and acknowledge that you are both part of a brotherhood?

Do you have a Yamaha tattoo? Or a Bose tattoo for that matter? What other corporation has people tattooing logos on their bodies?

Are there Yamaha reunions? Do Bose owners take all their equipment back to New England for a celebration? Are there Bose owners groups who go on tours with their Bose?

Japanese bikes may be technologically superior, but IMO they look like crap. I've never seen any rice burners and gone, "Wow, that looks cool" unless they are Harley imitations. And crotch rockets have never done a thing for me.

And are Harley's worth the price? Harley's are an investment. They have resale value. Your Japanese bike loses value as soon as you drive it off the lot. The Harley? The older it gets, the more valuable it becomes.

Sorry, but you hit a sore spot with me.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

OH...


Besides, Harley's have WAF. Even if I wanted a Japanese bike, my wife wouldn't allow it.

 

[JJMP50]

I agree 95% with that.... but Harleys do look and sound nice If that's what you care about, and hav ea lot of money to burn, go for it... Hmm, that's kind of another parallel to Bose -- they look nice and cost too much, so if that's what you want, there ya go!

Honestly, if I had the money, I'd get a Harley AND a sports bike... despite the fact that every ounce of logic in the world tells me Harleys aren't worth even half of what they cost, and I'll be fixin it more than riding it... Guess the marketing machine worked for me!

I'd suggest getting a Yamaha V-Max...oh, I mean Yamaha RX-V2500...Oh, this thread is so confusing!

 

[zumbo]

Shadow Ferret

http://www.hondahoot.com/index.aspx?bhcp=1

http://powersports.honda.com/motorcycles/cruiser_standard/model.asp?ModelName=VTX1800&ModelYear=2005&ModelId=VTX18C15

http://www.kawasaki.com/product_detail.asp?product=114&category=2&tag=motorcycle

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/products/unitinfo/2/mcy/4/17/0/yamaha_road_star_midnight.aspx

You are lost.

Go to NADA and check the resale value of a Harley versus the original Retail.

Now do the same for Honda.

You will be shocked to find that the Honda actually has a better resale value when based on the original cost. There are some Harleys, like Vettes, that have a high resale. But these are collector models. And, classic or antique.

This bike is $16400-$17040. No where near as good looking as the others I listed. It's dated. It's the same bike it was the day it was introduced. It is outperformed in every test by the other bikes I listed, and still cost 5k more. It's a sad day for Harley.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

The comments about Harley's merely show no one understands. You can compare them to Bose as "stunted technologically" or as mere media hype, but as I said, that just shows no one understands the "Harley mystique."

What mystique? All they do is openly flaunt the pseudo-"rebel" lifestyle that they spent several decades disowning. Remember when the dealer would refuse you service if you were in a MC?

Harley's are built for cruising, not racing, and that's what they are used for.

And the Japanese, Korean, German, and British companies don't build functional cruisers? And Harley doesn't own 100% of Buell (a sportbike company)? And Harley's highest production line isn't the "sportster", the bike that has the entire XL dirt-track racing sport all to itself? And Harley doesn't pump millions of dollars every year into its "Screaming Eagle" racing division yearly?

Are Jap bikes better? Maybe. But when you own a Yamaha, do you belong to the Yamaha community?

Yes

When you see another Yamaha do you wave and acknowledge that you are both part of a brotherhood?

Have you ever ridden a motorcycle? A rider waves at every other rider.

Do you have a Yamaha tattoo? Or a Bose tattoo for that matter?

Personally, No. Nor do I get a Harley tattoo when I had a Harley. But I have seen both company logos tattooed on people.

What other corporation has people tattooing logos on their bodies?

Apple, Nike, Nintendo, Sega, Ford, Chevrolet, Dodge, BMW, Glock, Heckler & Koch, Warner Brothers, Disney, Marvel Comics, DC, Janus Films, Honda, Ducati, Kawasaki, Indian, Hasbro, Infinity, Fender, Ferrarri, Polaris, Huck-Spaulding, Fiat, Mercedes, and hundreds of other companies. I can direct you to BME (Body Modification Ezine), they have tens of thousands of archived pictures of corporate tattoos.

Are there Yamaha reunions?

Yes. Some of the largest touring rallies and meets (Americade, HondaHoot) are sponsored by Japanese companies, and the paragon of biker rallies Daytona, is no longer Harley sponsored.

Japanese bikes may be technologically superior, but IMO they look like crap.

The Honda VTX, Honda Shadow A.C.E., Honda Sabre, Yamaha Road Star, Yamaha Royal Star, Yamaha V-Star, Suzuki Boulevard, Kawasaki Vulcan, BMW R1200c, And Moto-Guzzi California/Stone/Titanium are all traditonal V-twin cruisers of traditional styling. Most of them have fewer visable seams, machine work, more chrome, fewer plastic pieces, and smoother lines than Harleys.

And are Harley's worth the price? Harley's are an investment. They have resale value. Your Japanese bike loses value as soon as you drive it off the lot. The Harley? The older it gets, the more valuable it becomes.

Resale is the largest Harley myth. Just check your local paper, or browse Ebay for a little while. "Custom Harley, $40,000 invested, $20,000.OBO takes it" is a pretty common price. A Japanese cruiser only tends to lose 10% of its value in 10 years.

And that cherry '65 Panhead duo-glide you purchased new for $2550? Its worth about $8500. The same "investment" in a good stock portfolio could be worth $60,000. And also Harley has ramped-up production since 1984, there are few waiting lists (where costomers will pay for bikes they expect to be delivered next year), and most dealers now have stock "on the floor" year round.

Basically, everybody who wants one can buy one, and in 10/15/20/25 years, the used market is going to be flooded. Which bike is really the better future value: 2003 Harley-Davidson FXDWG Dyna Wide Glide 100th anniversay special editon (limited run of 20,000), or the 2004 Honda Rune (Limited run of 1000)?

 

[Takeereasy]

This is just my opinion but.... I can see an easy parallel between Bose and Harley. Both pass tradition and marketing flare off as quality. I have one friend who owns a Harley, and for him, yes it is a lifestyle choice. So are the 2 cars up on blocks in his lawn along with the car parts left everywhere. He can fix anything and his Harley that he's had since he was 18 is his pride and joy. His dad and granddad both rode Harleys. My friend has had his Harley since imports were still considered crap. To me that's a good reason to own a Harley. Now for the counterpoint, there was this girl I was seeing when I was younger. Her contractor father and his two doctor and one lawyer friends used to go out every Sunday if the weather was nice on their brand new $30,000 Harleys, wearing $2000 worth of Harley helmets, jeans, chaps, leathers, jackets, etc. That was done so that they could feel like bad boys. The Yamahas, Hondas, Kawasaki’s, are simply better built, better engineered, are possessed of higher quality, are made using superior production techniques, and yet still cheaper, bikes. I'm not talking sports bikes, I'm talking cruisers. Look up any competent review comparing cruisers and you'll see that Imports are preferred for their better ride and higher comfort level. If you want to talk sports bikes then all Harley can throw out is the Buell line. Try and find a more underachieving sports bike for the bucks and you won't. Oh sure some bikes cost more, but you'd really have to dig deep to find a bike with a lower cost/performance ratio. That old argument about speed limits doesn’t fly with me. Sure there are speed limits, and sure you’ll never be able to exceed them to the limits your average motorcycle can provide, but… If the imports have a higher top end speed and better construction, need less frequent repairs, are better on gas, provide a superior ride and handling, and cost less, why would you buy a Harley. There are tons of cruiser clubs for Asian bikes. Some are snobby enough to require that you have the same brand as the club, most are just guys who like to ride and want to hang out with others that share their passion.

Bose is a company that has created a mystique based on advertising and to some extent their heritage. They have been around long enough that they are recognized by at least a few generations of people. The products they sell don't have the best components, do not match up price wise to comparable offerings, and are inferior in every way to most similarly priced products on the market. Despite that there are still people who will swear up and down that Bose is the best out there.

Facts and logic aren’t going to change anyone’s opinions or preconceptions. As for myself I despise all motorcycles. Haven’t ridden one since my cr60 when I was a kid. I do however understand the value of most modern and classic autos (and a lot of heavy equipment) because I’m required to for my job.

The fact that Harley’s hold their value is incredibly true. That $30k Harley on the dealers lot is worth $40k in parts to a chop shop. My company has resold a Harley worth $18k that had been appraised as having $21k damage to it for $9k because of the usable parts. I think Resale value is important, but not at the cost of initial and continued value while a product is owned.

Oh well, that’s my opinion. I respect anyone who disagrees with me, even all you Bose owning Harley drivers.

 

[Shadow_Ferret]

I apologize if I offended anyone. That was my emotional response.

This is my logical one.

Logic. Does it even apply to things like this? Speakers, motorcycles, cars, guitars, movies, books... we all have our own opinions, our own likes and dislikes and more often than not it's based on visceral responses. Emotions.

I happen to love Gibson guitars. I don't think any guitar is as beautiful as a Les Paul. It has a classic shape. And the SG still has the cool factor it did when it was introduced. Is there anything to compare to the sound of an SG in the hands of Tony Iommi?

I want my speakers to look like speakers, little wooden boxes. Classic. Tradition. Heck, I wish they made receivers that still had the wood veneer wrap!

And in my case I've liked Harleys as long as I can remember. As with Gibsons, Harleys LOOK like a motorcycle should. They still have that classic look. They have history, if not the first, one of the first motorcycle companies. The Company. An American company. Yes, there is jingoism involved here, too. Heck, if I could find an American-made receiver I'd buy that without even thinking about it. My speaker choices, for example, have been narrowed down to American companies.

In retrospect there are probably many similarities to Bose. Marketing. Name recognition. Wow factor. In my case, WAF.

I still argue with the contention that they are both "technologically stunted." Harley improves year to year. Subtle in some cases, yes, but improvements. They especially aren't putting out the same crap they were when owned by AMF. And they do add technological advancements, the V-Rod as an example.

I don't think you can compare that to a company like Bose that hasn't made any real advancements to say the 901 since it was invented. They still use paper cones. Their Acoustimass stuff has huge gaps in the frequence response between the satellites and the subwoofer.

And yet people love them. As they love Harleys. Logical? No. It makes no sense. We shouldn't like these products. We probably should feel ripped off and be angry at the company. And yet we don't. And in the case of Harleys, the consumers actually contribute to "deception." They feel a part of the company, they share in it's history and tradition. They do get tattoos. They join owner's groups and feel a sense of community, of belonging, of exclusivity.

As was pointed out, it makes no sense. We're suckers If I really analyzed it, as I have analyzed Bose speakers, I probably would feel the same about Harleys.

And yet, I never would stand along the side of the road for hours waiting for a Kawasaki parade to start.

It's a Harley thing, you wouldn't understand.

 

[zumbo]

I can agree with the "parts resale value". Parts are in demand for a Harley.

 

[Takeereasy]

What they really wanted was the VIN number of the harley I'm sure. The company buying the salvage was in Quebec, and they have very different, shall we say "looser" laws when it comes to salvage disposition than Ontario. A shop with no morals can put the Vin numbers of vehicles too damaged to be put safely back on the road on another similar unit obtained by less than legal means. In Ontario we would brand it irrepairable and the VIN is recorded so that noone can ever use it again.

 

[zumbo]

The V-Rod engine was co-developed by Porsche. Harley couldn't get it to work.

The reason Harleys are more reliable than in the past, is because they use tons of Japanese parts. Tear one down and see for yourself.

 

[flyv65]

The comments about Harley's merely show no one understands. You can compare them to Bose as "stunted technologically" or as mere media hype, but as I said, that just shows no one understands the "Harley mystique."

I suppose I'd complain less if the "mystique and lifestyle" people would just admit upfront that what they're into is adult role-playing and that the motorcycle itself is merely costume jewelery, a prop that simply completes their ensemble. I went to see the Daytona 200 this year for the first time, and as a dubious "extra" got to see Daytona Bike Week. My impressions? Bike week (or Sturgis, or the Red River Rally, etc.) is kinda like the Renaissance Festival-people dressing up in costumes, pretending to be some one they're not...only the RenRats are on the whole much friendlier...and you don't go deaf from the "loud pipes save lives" idiocy.

You've said sooo many things that aren't based in fact, Shadowferret: like import owner community, or HD value retention, or possibly my favorite, HD not having a racing heritage (HDs are cruisers not racers): that one is simply stunning. A quick perusal of the AMA rulebook and race records will show how hard that organization has tried to keep an American manufacturer at least *racing* if not winning. In the 30's, 40's and 50's HD prided themselves on having the hottest racers and teams-then came the British invasion, and the regs were re-written so that even a 500 cc BSA wasn't allowed to compete with the HD twins at Daytona. And while HD was still reeling from the Anglophile pummeling it got in the sixties, the Japanese began kicking their butt in the seventies- a trend that continued untill Milwaukee finally folded up their AMA Superbike tent and buried the VR1000 in an unmarked grave. Of course, they had to: Superbike is a production class race, and HD never produced the bike for sale-it was just such a bad bike that no-one else cared if they were on the track or not. A few notable exceptions: Buells still compete in AMA racing, both in their own exclusive class, and as entrants into 600 supersport (they are permitted engine displacements up to 1370 cc to compensate for the poor dyno performance); and of course, there is flat track which is dominated by HD (I suspect due to the fact that the Big 4 have never felt the need to build a 400 cc motor that would beat the HD 750cc engine).

It was research that drove me to ignore Bose speakers, much like it was research that brought me to purchase a Honda motorcycle in lieu of the Milwaukee offerings. Perhaps I never felt the need to join the Harley lifestyle because I was quite satisfied with my life already.

Bryan...weren't we talking about speakers? ...

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Well the V-Rod was primarily engineered by Porsche, and the motor is made in Mexico, and the design borrows heavily from yamaha's V-Max (The faux-gas tanks are interchangable!). And that the company only crawled back from its bankruptcy and corporate restructuring after an ongoing multi-billion dollar advertising blitz started by the Office of Stockwelle & Howe.

And ultimate "Biker" guy Sonny Barger (leader of the Hells Angels for Christs sakes!)said in his memoir (Availabe HERE ) in which he says that Harley's "heritage" largely amounted to bunk, and would have started the HAMC start riding the larger displacement Jap bikes, but started his prison career about that time, and had to retire as president of the HAMC

But I won't say anything else about Harley in this thread (theres been enough hijacking). I just used it as an example of the kind of consumer conditioning (actually pre-consumer specifically) that Bose uses to make its products more desirable on the market.

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Flyv65, Love that comparing of Sturgis to a Renaissance Festival and RUBs to RPG'ers, made my day