Bose: Why Audiophiles Should Stop the Hate

[mtrycrafts]

The thing that gets me is the refusal to post specs.

....

Good reason for that No smoking gun Hide all evidence although doing measurements by others is not impossible.

 

[zhimbo]

...

My point was your argument of "deceptive tactics can't work for long" isn't valid. I'm not really a Bose hater at all, but let's not pretend that deceptive tactics don't work.

 

[krzywica]

My point was your argument of "deceptive tactics can't work for long" isn't valid. I'm not really a Bose hater at all, but let's not pretend that deceptive tactics don't work.

Enter the United States Political Process.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I think you've missed most of my point.... It wasn't one of price comparisons.

You can't compare Bose in a vacuum. It makes the point meaningless.

If Bose cost $200 then it would be a quality product for the money. Maybe even exceptional.

Cost + quality = value.

If all those soft drinks/beers cost four time as much as their non-advertising competition, then it is a great correlation. But, the mulit-million dollar marketing campaign hasn't made my Pepsi cost four times as much as the micro-brew root beer. In fact, just the opposite is true. They've managed to maintain excellent pricing in spite of the high advertising budgets they have available.

Pretty much opposite of Bose.

 

[BMXTRIX]

When was the last time you saw an Onkyo commercial? Bose has to pay those marketing costs somehow- they raise their price. Thats business101 Just because nobody else in the industry has decided to market their products this way isn't Bose's fault. They want maximum exposure to their products, they spend to accomplish and their pricing reflects it.. Whats the problem here?

Their product, for the money, sucks. That's the problem. That's the ENTIRE problem.

To think it isn't Bose's fault that they charge far to much for the quality of their product because of their advertising budget is like saying that what happens to a bullet after a pull the trigger isn't my fault.

It isn't Bose's fault that others don't advertise on TV (most do in magazines!) but it is their fault that they let advertising severely impact the price of their product.

Still, as I said originally - if they can sell it, it certainly isn't their fault. I just don't have to sit by quietly and nod my head in approval.

 

[Rickster71]

You can't compare Bose in a vacuum. It makes the point meaningless.

If Bose cost $200 then it would be a quality product for the money. Maybe even exceptional.

Cost + quality = value.

If all those soft drinks/beers cost four time as much as their non-advertising competition, then it is a great correlation. But, the mulit-million dollar marketing campaign hasn't made my Pepsi cost four times as much as the micro-brew root beer. In fact, just the opposite is true. They've managed to maintain excellent pricing in spite of the high advertising budgets they have available.

Pretty much opposite of Bose.

I think you're taking my beer analogy in too much of a literal sense.

My point is all about how a product is marketed.
There is little (if any) 'real' value to a soda can filled with $0.01 worth of sugar water.
It's value comes later, from convincing people the sugar water somehow defines them:
For example:
1961: Realizing the importance of the post-war generation, it changes it's theme to "Now It's Pepsi, For Those Who Think Young."

1963: "Come Alive! You're in the Pepsi Generation", becomes it's new theme.

1984: Michael Jackson stars in the first two commercials of the new
"Pepsi, The Choice of a New Generation" campaign.

1985: Lionel Ritchie appears in "New Generation" advertising followed by Tina Turner, Gloria Estefan, Joe Montana and Dan Marino.

I could go on, but you get the drift.

They have spent millions to market sugar water.... and made millions, and it's all from pennies worth of sugar water.
(what's the % mark up of that $0.01 can of soda? Then compare it to the % mark up of Bose and their cheap drivers, etc.) Pretty much the same as Bose

 

[Rickster71]

To think it isn't Bose's fault that they charge far to much for the quality of their product because of their advertising budget is like saying that what happens to a bullet after a pull the trigger isn't my fault.

Fault?
They do it because they can. It isn't Pepsi's fault because people will buy sugar water for $1.00 a can.

It isn't Bose's fault that others don't advertise on TV (most do in magazines!) but it is their fault that they let advertising severely impact the price of their product.

All the advertising in world won't sell ice to the Eskimos.
Bose fills a void and people buy into it.
Marketing & price point is all about Perceived Quality, Bose has it with it's advertising to the less informed consumer, as do soda manufacturers.

 

[Dan]

Me beeing a cheap bastard (just checkout my speaker ) think that drip coffee methods waste expensive coffee
I think if I would switch from Moka pot, what I'd really like is a semi-automatic like Rancilio Silvia. Unfortunately (see the reason above) I still don't have it, but I feel that eventually then I'll have a bigger kitchen than NY apt sized one I'm surely to get it

If you mean automatic drip makers I agree. They don't get the water hot enough to extract the flavor adequately. But a Melita or clever coffee are manual, you have to boil the water in a tea kettle and then pour through, they do an excelent job. The only good automatic I am aware of is the Technivorm for about $300 which does get the water to boil. Big brother Swerd is happy with his, but I'm too cheap to get one plus he and Bonnie drink more coffee than my wife and I.

Since the coffee aspect of this thread has otherwise died here's my last two cents on Bose. This is the price of capitalism. Car makers mostly sell cars for your ego, not about practicality, especially as the price goes up. Mac markets the same way in those PC vs. Mac commercials. I don't see anyone here complaining about Bill Gates and the crappy software Microsoft foists on us with a huge market share. P.T. Barnum's adage about suckers applies to the audio world perhaps better than any other.

So what is to be done? The alternative to our open system of capitalism is not pretty. I imagine many of us are the go to guy at work or in the neighborhood for people who have audio questions. Enlighten people one by one. At least you can look yourself in the mirror and say you did something worthwhile that day.

 

[Alex2507]

Rick, remember that cream soda? That was good! It tasted f^%&in' great!

It wasn't cheap either at like 5 bucks for a six but I felt it was worth it.

Bose on the other hand? New Jersey Dweller, puh-lease.

I know Mrs.W wanted a Bose so Mark has to defend the devil here and Texas Bill who is also a good guy has Bose but they also own Def Techs and Maggies. They are not the typical Bose heads who usually act like they got the bull by the horns but it's really what comes outa the other end of the bull that has their heads so swelled up that their ears don't work right.

I don't like the taste of cola but I cherish cream soda. That makes coke a rip off at any price but the cream soda is like the nectar of the gods worth any price be it monetary of a voluntary surrender of one's pancreas.

 

[Rickster71]

Rick, remember that cream soda? That was good! It tasted f^%&in' great!
It wasn't cheap either at like 5 bucks for a six but I felt it was worth it.

Didn't you buy that fancy soda at Whole Foods?
It did taste good, a little too sweet for me, but good. I won't ask how many extra sugars you put in yours.

I was in there with the Mrs and I saw the $5.00 "Organic Chap Stick"

Bose on the other hand? New Jersey Dweller, puh-lease.

What do you mean?! If Bose was a state it would be New Jersey.

 

[Wayde Robson]

I'm used and cheap ?!?

Me too! As much as possible.

 

[Wayde Robson]

Yep, couple of greats in audio Tom has a home page on line...

That's two mentions... I could never find it but it's been years since I ran any searches on the name. I figured someone here would know more about him. I loved the tests he used to do.

I'll have to look him up again.

 

[Alex2507]

I saw the $5.00 "Organic Chap Stick"

... ... I better not.

 

[Hocky]

Everyone keeps referencing Bose as being junk "for the money." In my opinion, leave the money out of it - it is irrelevant. If someone is willing to pay the price asked (or in this case, lots of people) and are satisfied with their purchase, it was worth the money. I will pay more for what I want. Why do I spend thousands on watches when I can get one that performs similarly at Walmart? Because I bought what I wanted to. What you perceive as good value or a worthwhile product is not what someone else perceives as such. Most of the population would laugh at 5 figure stereo/theater sound systems and most of us are trying to spend more on them. haha

FWIW, my parents have a wave radio and frankly, it is pretty damn good for what it is. lol

 

[jliedeka]

My dad had a Bose Wave Radio. I thought it sounded pretty impressive for a small clock radio. The transmission line gives it an impressive amount of bass. Contrary to their marketing, it didn't sound like a full sized stereo but it put out a lot of sound.

I'm glad someone mentioned Floyd Toole and Harman. I recommend everyone interested in sound reproduction read Floyd's book.

I've become an Apple user over the last couple years. I started using a Mac at work and recently bought a 13" MacBook Pro to replace my aging linux laptop. I know I could have bought a windows PC with equivalent hardware for less and put linux on it. I decided that there are some things Apple does really well that make it worth the price premium for me.

Also, OS X is based on FreeBSD plus a microkernel. None of that code is GPL so Apple is under no obligation to share their changes.

Since coffee also wound up in this thread, I'll comment on that too. I have been roasting my own for 9 or 10 years. Currently using a Behmor 1600. I roast every week, grind within minutes of brewing and use a manual pourover method. My priorities are good beans at the right roast level, freshness - never much more than a week to 10 days old, and a good extraction.

Eclectically yours,
Jim

 

[dkane360]

Why do I spend thousands on watches when I can get one that performs similarly at Walmart? Because I bought what I wanted to. What you perceive as good value or a worthwhile product is not what someone else perceives as such.

In most cases you pay for high quality workmanship and materials, not just a brand name. This is not so with Bose (IMO).

Would you pay 2k for a Breitling if it couldn't tell time correctly? Would you buy a gun that didn't shoot straight? A calculator that gave you the wrong answer? Accuracy is what nearly every industry strives for, audio should be no different.

People need to learn what accuracy in audio is and how to listen for it. Otherwise, anything that has the impression of bass and plays loud enough is labeled as fantastic.

Bose has a target audience, those looking for simplicity and have the money to pay for it. Everyone else who genuinely thinks that Bose sounds the best needs to be aware of what good sound is and the science behind it.

[/rant]

 

[adwilk]

In most cases you pay for high quality workmanship and materials, not just a brand name. This is not so with Bose (IMO).

Would you pay 2k for a Breitling if it couldn't tell time correctly? Would you buy a gun that didn't shoot straight? A calculator that gave you the wrong answer? Accuracy is what nearly every industry strives for, audio should be no different.

People need to learn what accuracy in audio is and how to listen for it. Otherwise, anything that has the impression of bass and plays loud enough is labeled as fantastic.

Bose has a target audience, those looking for simplicity and have the money to pay for it. Everyone else who genuinely thinks that Bose sounds the best needs to be aware of what good sound is and the science behind it.

[/rant]

Accuracy isn't the enjoyment in audio... The brain processes facts and figures in a way that has no bearing on the emotional enjoyment of perception.

Absolute accuracy - the holy grail in audio being unachievable requires tradeoff- most peoples' compromise lends to a product that Bose manufactures. Us audio snobs are by far the minority.

 

[Nomo]

... ... I better not.

I'll do it.

I was in there with the Mrs and I saw the $5.00 "Orgasmic Chap Stick":

Fixed that for ya.

 

[dkane360]

Accuracy isn't the enjoyment in audio... The brain processes facts and figures in a way that has no bearing on the emotional enjoyment of perception.

Absolute accuracy - the holy grail in audio being unachievable requires tradeoff- most peoples' compromise lends to a product that Bose manufactures. Us audio snobs are by far the minority.

True, there has to be some trade off, but I don't think disregarding the need for accuracy all together is the way to do it.

 

[Nestor]

I have a set of Bose headphones. They are very comfortable and I like the tonal quality.

There. I said it.