Bose: Why Audiophiles Should Stop the Hate

GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Note to self; Never hold page down in a thread where Alex has the last post :eek:

That pic scared the crap out of me.
 
B

bogrod

Junior Audioholic
Wow. This is incredible. All in a matter of a few months, I see that overly sensitive unprofessional goof slaughter his reputation & the damage the reputation of Audioholics with his behavior following the VTF-15H review. And, I see these silly little "videos" being passed off as polished professional reviews. So be it. You can't win them all.

Now, I read an article on Audioholics defending Bose.

What's next for you guys? Are you going to start to endorse overpriced cable?
 
BufordTJustice

BufordTJustice

Junior Audioholic
I find Bose's marketing strategy deceptive and the overall value of its products to be very poor.

I am a cop and another enormous hobby of mine is the use of tactical firearms. When a firearm company claims to have expended a metric shitload of money toward improving some aspect of a gun or an individual part, the tac community expects to see tangible results of that expenditure.

Example 1: When a company states that they have developed an advanced coating for AR15/M16 bolt carrier groups that reduces friction (like IONbond or Fail Zero) and increases part life, that claim will be measured against a known standard (such as a standard mil-spec phosphated bolt carrier group). Claims of additional reliability will be documented in terms of mean-rounds-between-failure, etc.

Bose constantly claims to be the penultimate in sonic reproduction. These claims are rather concrete, in that they are claims to more 'realistically' recreate the live sonic experience. This despite the vast majority of sonic material being added in post production, or created in the music recording studio.

My big question is this: if Bose uses cheap paper-cone mid-tweeters, crossovers of cheap (and poor) architecture, cheaply constructed (and poorly damped) cabinets, cheap speaker connection terminals, and under-performing/weak amplifiers (for the "systems" & self powered setups)...how can one, on a MORAL basis, justify the outrageously high prices that they charge?

I mean, in terms of firearms manufacture, the best components only BEGIN with the best materials.....and these components are further separated from the pack by exceptional heat treats, post HT coatings, etc.

How can the additional performance be realized using such inferior components? And how is the use of $4 2" paper cone tweeters reflective of any amount of research? Sh*t.....they used those in "hifi" speakers from 40 years ago. Going down the list....the same could be asked of virtually EVERY aspect of their products. Drivers, crossovers, cabinets, connections, amplifiers.....WHERE is the research ending up if so much is being/has been conducted? It sure as hell ain't in the quality of manufacture of the products.

There is only so much that can be accomplished through DSP signal manipulation and phase-change.

Then there is this complete farce: Bose has no f**king clue what the "reflected" sound will do when it bounces off of Gawd-knows-what-surface in your home and is somehow magically beamed back to your ear. Why knowingly depend on a variable like that? I mean, we're not talking about DefTech who sends an accurate sonic image to your ear which is reinforced (on some models) with a same-phase reflection from the rear of the cabinet.....not to mention DefTech using vastly higher quality (and more accurate) drivers, crossover components and design, and cabinets.

For instance, I actually like the Bose 2.1 Lifestyle 235 setup. I heard it and it sounded okay.

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/home_theater/21channel_systems/index.jsp

&

http://www.bose.com/controller?url=/shop_online/home_theater/21channel_systems/lifestyle_235/index.jsp

It is simply not worth $2300. That's total bullshit. I defy anyone to explain how an HONEST company can charge that much for so little? Just because people are dumb enough to pay for it is irrelevant; it's still deceptive and dishonest to charge that much. Having other shitty electronics on the market has nothing to do with Bose. Two wrongs does not a right make.

$1000 or even $1200 for the 235 system would be a decent value for what it is. It had better tonal balance than any Bose system I've heard recently. It still had an overwhelming bass hump at ~80hz, but overall it was as good as I've heard a Bose system sound.

I could care less what Dr. Bose does in terms of philanthropic (and tax deductible) donations to his alma mater; the prices he charges for most of his products are immoral.

I have a good friend who works at a local best buy and I can tell you that there are good reasons why digital inputs of equal program quality are NOT fed to Bose systems and the 'other' receivers/speakers. The good reasons involve store payoffs for "premium product placement" for Bose products, minimum distances to comparable products, and a guarantee of no 'direct competition' near the Bose display from any manufacturer. Also, you'll notice that the receivers powering the BB speaker displays are fed by an adjacent CD player running ultra-cheap RCA stereo cables...never optical or coaxial. Whereas Bose are run optical/coaxial/HDMI if they have the capability and are fed custom program material. I was also told that the DVDs that play in their demos are NOT supposed to be played in non-Bose equipment under any circumstances. My buddy, being curious, did so (in the magnolia room, after hours) and he stated that after taking out a live bruce springsteen DVD, the Bose disc sounded 'horrible', with dialog that sounded 'wierd' and un-natural in my buddy's words. He played the Bose disc through some small B&W towers, Martin Logan electrostat towers, and some Vienna Acoustics bookshelf speakers....all fed by a Denon receiver. He has since become a geek squad manager and does not deal with audio directly anymore, but nonetheless. This indicates to me that the Bose demo disc may have a special EQ applied to further nullify any product weaknesses.

If Bose products stand on merit and product quality/performance alone, why the need for 'custom source material'?

What. A. Joke.
 
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Patrick_Wolf

Patrick_Wolf

Audioholic
^ That says it all. Sure, there's some people who will blindly order an expensive Bose speaker system without hearing it first, but the vast majority will need to hear it. So they'll go someplace that sells Bose (like Best Buy) and are treated to a flashy, cozy, isolated setup that actually sounds pretty good. Course the only info you get is what the speakers look like and the sound they give. The source and equipment used to power them is hidden.

If the customer wants to hear something else for comparison they're directed toward an unremarkable, often unorganized shelf with various speakers strewn about being fed an FM radio or other low quality signal with a box of buttons to switch between speakers (which didn't even work correctly at my local BB). And when you feed a bad source to a good speaker it often sounds worse then when fed to a lesser speaker.

This type of setup is highly suspicious and extremely unfair as people cannot make a fair comparison. That's where the "Bose Hate" comes from. Quite honestly, Bose's main demographic is ignorant people with money. They aren't buying Bose just because the speakers are small, or the system is easy to use. They honestly believe they're getting some of the highest quality audio available all because Bose says they are and believe it because the marketing is so well done, and they can't fairly compare it to anything else. So then, the outrageous price is justified.

And charitable donations don't make up for their highly deceptive markeing and grossly overpriced products. They are trying to rip people off, and they know it. Period.
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Why so much concern over Bose??

I am not sure I understand why anybody cares about Bose. What piece of stereo equipment a person decides to purchase is their business. If they want to spend $3000 for a complete Bose system that may or may not offer superior sounds quality is that individuals decision....why does anyone care.

Regardless of what a Bose system is worth, it is called marketing for a reason and that is what created the Bose reputation. They invested in name recognition and it worked for them. It is no different than somebody spending money on designer clothing, expensive cars, cosmetics, etc.....people will pay top dollar for a brand name or badge stating that I can afford this piece of merchandise. Why can't it be that simple.

I am not personally a fan of Bose, although I do enjoy my wave radio. Just because they offer a product that you don't care for does not make them evil. I believe they are what a good investor calls it it PROFITABLE!!!!

My 2 cents for what it is worth.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
My only problem with Bose has more to do with their customers. If one more Bose lover walk’s into my HT room, smiles and says, “Not bad, but maybe you can move up to a Bose system like mine some day” I’ll have to toss them off my deck.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Why only single out Bose?:confused:
Anyone that's dated or married a women that wears high heels, makeup, or a push-up bra is guilty of falling for deceptive marketing tactics.:)

It's also a matter of priorities for the Non-Audioholic.

I'll use my wife as an example:
Before we met, she ran her own accounting business during the day and went to school at night, with those two things her top priorities.
She lived alone in a townhouse and when looking for a stereo system she bought an 'all in one box' type system. (Not Bose) Given that she spent very little of her waking hours at home, at that point in her life she was happy with that setup.

Some Bose or HTIB buyers may be uninformed, but for others it's just a matter of priorities; If I had kids I wouldn't have even the modest system I have today.
 
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M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
My only problem with Bose has more to do with their customers. If one more Bose lover walk’s into my HT room, smiles and says, “Not bad, but maybe you can move up to a Bose system like mine some day” I’ll have to toss them off my deck.
Do you still have those bears rootin' around there? :rolleyes:
 
jliedeka

jliedeka

Audioholic General
One thing I'm confused about. How could the showroom deceive you into thinking Bose sounds better. Speakers and the room do more to determine sound quality. It doesn't matter how good the electronics feeding the speakers is. A good source and amplifier feeding crappy speakers is still going to sound crappy.

Jim
 
G

Guavamanh

Junior Audioholic
One thing I'm confused about. How could the showroom deceive you into thinking Bose sounds better. Speakers and the room do more to determine sound quality. It doesn't matter how good the electronics feeding the speakers is. A good source and amplifier feeding crappy speakers is still going to sound crappy.

Jim
I remember the presentation I saw was a small isolated room set up specifically for Bose. Everything was hidden. Obviously, the sound will be different in a different/larger room without the acoustical treatment, without their specific demo content and who knows what else behind the curtain. Back then however, I had no clue and thought WOW I wish I can save up enough money to take this system home one day.

I think we all have different levels of what we're willing to accept and what we're not. Unless you're a nihilist... then why read this thread? o_O Obviously buyer beware (and that's why I did my research before buying my syste,) but it sucks when they're duping people out of their hard earned cash. It's legal, but I don't like it... especially when I was personally duped as well, but again was lucky enough to be a high school kid with no money back then :mad:
 
Shock

Shock

Audioholic General
Dear BOSE,

I have no integrity, send me some free **** and I will tell people it's good stuff. Really in need of a new headset.....
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
One thing I'm confused about. How could the showroom deceive you into thinking Bose sounds better. Speakers and the room do more to determine sound quality. It doesn't matter how good the electronics feeding the speakers is. A good source and amplifier feeding crappy speakers is still going to sound crappy.
#1 is source content. It's not music, and it's not even movies. It's special effects "sounds". Sounds which we aren't familiar with. Sounds we may never experience in real life (dinosaur stomps, tiger roars, "whoosh" effects, explosions). There's definitely an emphasis on all the people oblivious people thing makes a good system, starting with 80hz-200hz midbass that sounds like the worst "smiley face" curves in people's cars.
#2 is equalization. If you mix source content to sound better on bad speakers, it will sound better. The
#3 is comparision. There's nothing nearby to compare it to. It'll most likely be the only fully setup SURROUND system - most others will not be "hearable", and most certainly not properly setup in surround.
#4 is very important - loudness. You see these tiny little palm-sized speakers and thing to yourself "no way they can make impressive sounds, they're small". And then you're hit with what one might even think are impressive dynamics - loud special effects with a ton of bass as described above. The surround effects whizz by you and draw attention to themselves. All fine and dandy right? Except for the part where you don't realize that every single speaker is hanging off of a pole within one foot of your ears. As soon as you put those in a real life room at real life distances and try to listen at real life volumes, all of sudden it don't sound so great anymore.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
If one more Bose lover walk’s into my HT room, smiles and says, “Not bad, but maybe you can move up to a Bose system like mine some day” I’ll have to toss them off ...
You sure that's all I have to do to get tossed off?
You don't want me to tell you you're pretty or nothin'? :D
 
W

westcott

Audioholic General
It is hard to respect a company that charges outlandish prices for mediocre hardware. It is easy to be philinthropic with OTHER peoples money you bilked from them. But, I find them less offensive as time passes because the internet makes not excuses for those who continue to patranize them.

But, it does make show you the power of marketing. Ronald Reagan would be proud.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It is hard to respect a company that charges outlandish prices for mediocre hardware. It is easy to be philinthropic with OTHER peoples money you bilked from them. But, I find them less offensive as time passes because the internet makes not excuses for those who continue to patranize them.

But, it does make show you the power of marketing. Ronald Reagan would be proud.
So, you want to turn this into a political thread? Really?
 
Ito

Ito

Full Audioholic
No they look fine I have one. It was the Clamshell ibooks that were butt ugly. Steve was smoking some 70's leftovers when he allowed those.

Now whoever doesn't think this looks sexy needs a roundhouse kick in the nads.

I always thought they looked like monitors with a goiter... (is working on one right now).
 
J

Jeff R.

Audioholic General
Government Sound Systems Inc.

Since it is not fair for people to make their own decisions about what to buy and how much to spend on their PRIVATE stereo systems and the evil Bose Corporation has taken advantage of all the innocent people, I propose we let the government take over the speaker/stereo market and all the free enterprise out there will be gone and then the government can dictate which products we can get and how much they will cost then it will be fair for everyone....:D:D Maybe we can even put in a system where they will round up everyones gear and redistribute to to others and then they can pass out stamps for us to go pick up our new clock radio with an IPOD docking station.

I think that sounds like a great option.....:rolleyes::confused::eek:
 

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