bookshelfs with very good bass (no sub needed) with bluesound powernode 2i for big living room

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pberghmans

Enthusiast
Let us know the use cases. Back ground music listening vs. critical music listening, vs. tv watching, vs movie watching. Or all of the above in different fractions.

And the budget

Based on that, we could help with the most appropriate system and best placement solutions.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I want to watch tv with these speakers & background music : soundtracks & electronic music.

Budget 1500(-2500 max) speakers , bluesound 2i I was thinking to avoid extra cost separate ampi, pre ampi and dac but having streaming with this solution&amp,dac all in one
 
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pberghmans

Enthusiast
With a lower power amp, you'll want a higher sensitivity speaker. At least you can achieve loud, but maybe not "room filling". It depends on what the real goal is, if you're not after concert levels, there are plenty of speakers that will work. Maybe we need a budget range?
Hi I want room filling sound (clean, pure & fast musically) which can go loud. Budget 1500 (2500 max) for speakers, amp very capable but not costing to much I thought bluesound 2i powernode was good since a lot of people are giving very good reviews about this since its nad etc
 
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pberghmans

Enthusiast
You also need to be somewhat careful with your speaker selection to match up with the Bluesound amp section, it's only rated at 60wpc into 8 ohms. Is it even suitable for 4 ohm speakers?
I have really no notion of this Thanks for mentioning this
 
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pberghmans

Enthusiast
I think there would be benefit in levelsetting.

What does "don't need subs" mean to you? What frequencies at what volume at what distance?

You will never get 105db@20hz@2m (THX peak IIRC) out of a bookshelf.
You won't get that out of most towers either.

Generally you have three traits: Low, Loud, Small. You can pick any two.

That's not to say there's nothing, never that will push those (say: shocing a JL10W7 into a bookshelf.. which I would expect to start bouncing if not strapped down); but there are real limits.
What is your opinion for room filling sound (big room) & speakers who can go loud . Which sub (do I really need 2) rel ?

budget 1500 (max 2500 ) speakers , budget amp not to costly
Listening : soundtracks, electronic music background & sometimes parties (60m2 , 3.80 m high living room)
 
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pberghmans

Enthusiast
Let us know the use cases. Back ground music listening vs. critical music listening, vs. tv watching, vs movie watching. Or all of the above in different fractions.

And the budget

Based on that, we could help with the most appropriate system and best placement solutions.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

60m2 , 3.80 m walls high living room
Sometimes want to give parties so need some bass / soundtracks & electronic music need that also
 
P

pberghmans

Enthusiast
Let us know the use cases. Back ground music listening vs. critical music listening, vs. tv watching, vs movie watching. Or all of the above in different fractions.

And the budget

Based on that, we could help with the most appropriate system and best placement solutions.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
I really like the look of these :
https://www.buchardtaudio.com/shop/s400-smoked-oak

Play very deep.

Don't know if this matches with the powernode 2i bluesound as amp&streamer Thats the problem its a webshop and since I know nothing of setting up a audio system I have no dealer to set this up properly at my new home..

I know Buchardt is releasing end of year a new active system based on this so maybe wait for that so need for setup,cables and amp

thanks
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
In a room that size, 228 cubic meters/8000cuft, good bass would be hard for a good sized sub let alone bookshelf speakers alone. Larger speakers and sub seem in order.
I know you're focused on bookshelf speakers, but @lovinthehd offered the best advice several posts ago.

You can buy and try as many bookshelf speakers as you like but they all will come up short compared to larger speakers and a sub. A sub + bookshelf speakers may be a compromise. Bookshelf speakers on their own are unlikely to work well.
 
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pberghmans

Enthusiast
Not much reason to have stereo subs, not much content to support it either (in many recordings sub bass is already in mono) and the best position for a sub often isn't where the main speakers are. Aesthetics don't always mix well with speaker/sub selection, and often raise the price for nicer finishes or smaller subs that still perform (larger the better generally for a sub). The Rel is a pretty weak sub for the price usually (especially here in the US), and fast has nothing to do with anything but spl really, it's a poor descriptor most of the time. I'd say you need some fairly large bass-capable speakers, floor standers most likely, if you don't want help from a sub/subs. I have speakers in a higher line than the 230s and the small bookshelves in that range (the 530) I certainly wouldn't expect to act as mains in a large room unless perhaps I sat fairly close to the speakers.

How far will you sit from the speakers? ATC is an excellent high performance speaker. Good capable speakers will cost money. What is your budget?
I sit for tv at 3.5 meters with Tv 65 inch

For music listening I am not sitting a lot but rather in the big room at the end ..

some people advised me getting towers like : QUAD S-5 which is max for budget as speakers but they have good bass I am reading. Atc are professional speakers and very nice but out of my price range.

I have also no clue of matching a big tower like Quad S-5 with amplification Thinking of quad ampli would be good match. Need to find a dealer in Belgium for advise but when I go on the site quad it gives Netherlands as dealer which is to far. Looking further for demo on this speakers.

For my budget the problems arise when I go demo towers they push me for very expense ampli, pre ampli, dac etc.. I am not experienced enough to match good and budget wise amp for tower to get most out of it.

I assume a big tower shall not be driven well just by the bluesound 2i...
 
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shkumar4963

Audioholic
I want to watch tv with these speakers & background music : soundtracks & electronic music.

Budget 1500(-2500 max) speakers , bluesound 2i I was thinking to avoid extra cost separate ampi, pre ampi and dac but having streaming with this solution&amp,dac all in one
I would suggest Kef ls50w. They are audiophile speakers with praises by nearly all reviewers. Add one of two subs. In the us, svs is good. But in Europe kef 10b or 12b may be more cost effective.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
Isn't the blue sound 2i a wireless speaker? If so, don't expect it to be driving anything but itself... and only to the limits that it's cabinet volume and driver area/excursion permits.

Powered bookshelf speakers offer excellent flexibility for placement etc. but they're not capable of filling large spaces with high levels of sound or deep bass extension any more than non-powered speakers... unless you use lots of them (which drives up the cost factor).

The issue is cabinet size and driver area/excursion.

The Quad S-5 specifications show them to be reasonable efficiency (90 dB/W/m is quite good, but it's not often that I see any speaker actually perform to it's rated efficiency in independent testing) but somewhat difficult to drive (6 ohms nominal, 3.2 ohms min). That doesn't necessarily require a costly amp, just one rated to sustain output at 4 ohms impedance.

All sales people will try to upsell. They'll use any tactic at their disposal to do so. It's important, therefore, to read about how amplifiers (which are sub components of AVRs) work before hand. A few good (high current) watts will go a lot further than lots of bad (high voltage) ones, especially when driving loudspeakers in the 90 dB/W/m range.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
My pleasure.

In my opinion, the REL T7i is a little light in bass. I say this because the specs show 30 Hz at -6 dB. Ignoring the -6 dB drop, 30 Hz is barely enough to capture the fundamental frequency of some musical instruments. When viewed with the drop, it probably isn't enough to give these instruments the justice they deserve.

The JBL specs look pretty good for their price range. Like all bookshelf designs, they're light in bass but they perform reasonably well to 55 Hz (which is commendable for bookshelves). They aren't as sensitive as most (an independent review I read rated them at 85dB/W/m based on a quasi-anechoic test (not in a free space or each free chamber, JT by placing the mic very close to the driver).

This combination might not be right for you because of the size of your space. Power can overcome sensitivity but won't change frequency range of the sub.
Other than pipe organ, synths and large bass drum, what instrument has a fundamental frequency lower than 30Hz and why is -6dB @ 30Hz inadequate for most music that doesn't even have much going on in that region? The room's influence on low frequencies is well-known.

I installed three pairs of Dynaudio Excite 14 speakers in a house with relatively open floorplan- the Kitchen (about 12' x 20') opens to the dining area (12' x 18'), which has a Sun Room (10' x 12' with windows at a 45 degree angle at the end) at the far end. It's a straight shot from end to end and the ceiling is about 9'. At the end of the kitchen, there's a butler's pantry leading to a powder room and to the side, a 5' wide opening into a room (~14' x 20') that has French doors at both ends and 10' ceiling. The living room is accessed through a door in the dining area and the left wall opens to the foyer through an 8' opening- the foyer continues to the kitchen and has a staircase to the 2nd floor.

One pair in the upper cabinets of the kitchen at one end, another pair in the Sun Room on low stands and another pair in the Living Room, on the floor. With no EQ, the bass is far better than I would have imagined and it's very consistent as I walk through the whole area. The space is much larger than what the OP is using, but these speakers, with 5-1/4" drivers, punch above their weight. I think their 6-1/2" models would be very good in the OP's room.
 
GrimSurfer

GrimSurfer

Senior Audioholic
I agree that multiple speakers can fill a large space with sound, it the costs usually work out to be the same as more conventional approaches.

One of the challenges of multiple speakers in large single spaces is timing delay, where the sound from the furthest speakers arrives after the sound of the nearest speakers. Added to this are some rather complicated reflections. Most AVRs can correct for this at the seating location but have no way of adjusting as the listening position changes. This leads to problems when listening to 5 channel source material (such as Blu Ray) while moving about the room.

When listening in two channel mode, the smaller number of driven satellites cannot fill the room with adequate sound pressure. They might do a reasonable job up close, but would probably struggle projecting to the back of the room described by the OP.

I agree with your point about LFE for music. A good response down to 30 Hz is certainly adequate for music. It is less so for movies because sub-bass is so frequently used for added effect.

What this says to me is that the OP could either use a combination of multiple satellites and subs -or- floor standing speakers (front channels),satellites (rear channels) and a single sub. Each of these have trade-offs though.

It seems to me like his space doesn't introduce the kind of acoustic difficulties one normally experiences (small rooms, square rooms, low ceilings etc.). It's size, however, makes it challenging to fill with sound for both movies and music at his budget.

This is a tough nut to crack!
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
60m2 , 3.80 m walls high living room
Sometimes want to give parties so need some bass / soundtracks & electronic music need that also
As soon as you want to play electronica, everything changes. You need a sub, but you could get a wireless one, to make placement flexible. Big bass needs big speakers and/or more excursion and small speakers just can't fill a room with bass at the lowest frequencies, at high sound levels.

Look into Yamaha MusicCast and Denon's HEOS- both have streaming capability, sub out, bluetooth and are controlled by an app. They can be connected to the network wired or WiFi and are available with a decent amp- it's not a huge amount of power, but it's a good start. I prefer these to Sonos but their new Amp has a sub out and supposedly, a better amplifier than their old model.

A wireless sub can be used with any of these, but it must be the same brand as the streaming unit. Universal wireless subwoofer transmit/receive kits are available.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for the info !
Budget speakers around 1500 euros.. I was thinking of speakers in the like of 'Buchardt Audio' since they go deep and people say no sub is needed.. problem is there is no real store just a webshop So no real support setting up my gear

It is true I play a lot of electronic music.. Which sub is advised for this ? I was thinking REL but the t7i is for my very big living room to puny people say. Other are saying buy 2.. But then my budget is increasing rapidly over time ..
Thats the reason I was thinking of speakers where you don't feel the need for sub : full range big tower speakers maybe can solve this

Also driving the speakers only by bluesound 2i with no pre ampli or better dac can I hear this difference since no audiophile ?

thanks for info
You need to clarify this- is the room a 60m square, or 60 square meters? I'm guessing 60 square meters, which makes it around 25' (7.74m) x 25' (7.74m) with a 12' (3.8m) ceiling.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I sit for tv at 3.5 meters with Tv 65 inch

For music listening I am not sitting a lot but rather in the big room at the end ..

some people advised me getting towers like : QUAD S-5 which is max for budget as speakers but they have good bass I am reading. Atc are professional speakers and very nice but out of my price range.

I have also no clue of matching a big tower like Quad S-5 with amplification Thinking of quad ampli would be good match. Need to find a dealer in Belgium for advise but when I go on the site quad it gives Netherlands as dealer which is to far. Looking further for demo on this speakers.

For my budget the problems arise when I go demo towers they push me for very expense ampli, pre ampli, dac etc.. I am not experienced enough to match good and budget wise amp for tower to get most out of it.

I assume a big tower shall not be driven well just by the bluesound 2i...
Can you rough up a diagram or provide pics of the room for where you plan to watch/listen? Will you place speakers for use for tv? Or just for music?

ATC is especially nice as they make their own drivers; Dynaudio would be another that does this. They are both fairly expensive. I'm not familiar with Quad's speakers other than references to their original electrostatic speakers, have heard more about their amps. But I'm in the US, too, so generally what's available to you in either speakers or subs (and I know your choice of subs is far less there).

As to matching amplification with the Bluesound Powernode's power of 60wpc at 8 ohm I'd look for fairly efficient speakers (high sensitivity, say at least 90dB at 2.83V/1m) and 8 ohm. Those Quad S-5s are 90dB 6 ohm speakers and may work fairly well with your amp, altho perhaps not to the loudest levels throughout your big room. Use this spl calculator to get an idea how the amp power translates to spl at various distances. http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
Generally larger speakers are higher sensitivity than smaller ones (Hoffman's Iron Law applies)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You need to clarify this- is the room a 60m square, or 60 square meters? I'm guessing 60 square meters, which makes it around 25' (7.74m) x 25' (7.74m) with a 12' (3.8m) ceiling.
He was pretty specific about 60 sq meters by the abbreviation and said large living room, 60 x 60m is more like a warehouse.

I agree with your point about LFE for music. A good response down to 30 Hz is certainly adequate for music. It is less so for movies because sub-bass is so frequently used for added effect.

!
Music doesn't generally have an LFE channel. That's a different subject than redirected bass/bass management for a sub. I listen to all sorts of things and like lower response, prefer good large subs be involved for my large room (not as large as OP's, tho). If I were on a budget like OP I'd probably have to cut out the wishes for the very low response capabilities tho.
 
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pberghmans

Enthusiast
You need to clarify this- is the room a 60m square, or 60 square meters? I'm guessing 60 square meters, which makes it around 25' (7.74m) x 25' (7.74m) with a 12' (3.8m) ceiling.
60 square meters indeed
 
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