Bookshelf Speaker Faceoff 2007

[Alamar]

I don't think that the prior poster was saying that 6 hondas were better than a porche.

I think his points were:

1. It's not fair compairing speakers that are 1K more than the other speakers in the test because they are not even in the same league.

2. The more $ you spend the better stuff you get.

However with my reading of the thread there is diminishing returns fairly early. I.E. There is a huge difference between 200$/pair speakers and 400$/pair speakers. The difference from 400$ to 800$ wasn't as large but it was still very noticeable.

The article, IMHO, did a decent job looking at the relative differences and giving you a feeling of what your $ will get you. The review's summaries were esp. useful to drive that point home.

 

[avaserfi]

Alamar,

I suggest you go to AVRant.com and listen to rant number 16. Tom, one of the reviewers for AH, talks about his views on the diminishing returns with all the speakers listed and says that the Dali pair were a night and day difference to the 800 dollar pair. This means that while returns may have been diminished they are extremely noticable.

Spending money does not equal quality all I have to say is Nordost Valhalla or Bose. Spending more money in the right places lead to quality increases.

Lastly, I realize you aren't bashing or anything like that. My joke post from above was because many people, not just you, have been complaining about various aspects of this shoot off. From speakers included to methodology but in reality there is no way the reviews could have made everyone happy and released this shootout in a reasonable time, another point mentioned in the rant I told you about.

 

[InTheIndustry]

I'll start by stating that I liked the review a lot. However, while reading, I wondered what happened to the Jamo C803's and where they went off to but <Shrugs>, oh' well.

The national magazines do these kinds of comparisons all the time and are fairly consistent at riding the fence. AH never rides the fence and isn’t afraid to hurt feelings. To just come out and say it: Lately I’ve been finding the reviews of the GPS device, video game steering wheel, and <Gulp> even WORSE than the back pack, Cerwin Vega surround system a complete waste of the AH teams talents. But, with articles like this you (stealing from “Dumb & Dumber”) TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELVES. What a fun read.

I can only imagine the backlash, ridicule, and black balling AH gets from a lot of manufacturers for telling the stories behind the stories and giving their HONEST impressions of products out vying for readers dollars. Even when I sometimes disagree with what they write I never question their ethics, ability, or reasoning. As an A/V contractor, I appreciate that AH conducts shoot outs this way and accept, for whatever reasons, why they do or do not include or exclude certain brands or methodologies. It is what it is (which AH always explains up front)… so we should accept it as such, appreciate that they took the time, and then make our individual decisions on pursuing a purchase or, in my case, bringing on a line (RBH).

This is in no way a bash. It’s quite the opposite. I think it was a great read and a bit of a showcase of everyone's talents as evaluators. Another one of my favorites is the T-30LSE review. It made me order not just the pair of T-30LSE’s but also the matching center & surrounds. If Gene says it’s that good, I want to try it (matched with my JL-Audio Gotham Sub). I might even grab a pair of those Dali’s now t see what they’re all about.

I often wonder if the AH readers understand the risk that comes along with honesty and how absolutely cut-throat it is to be Intheindustry (shameless subliminal plug) and writing articles that aren’t always real cushy for these manufacturers?

 

[InTheIndustry]

With all the people not reading this thread to find out why certain things that they know should have been done but weren't I have decided to touch on something that no one has brought up:

Why didn't you guys give the speakers guns and let them shoot each other until one was left standing? It is clear to me this is the one and only way to determine the best speaker! Lastly, why didn't you include the Plok speaker I bought from the back of a white van in my local target parking lot? The drivers look like Kevlar so it probably would have taken a few shots before going down.

I'll say this right here and now: I would LOVE to see a claymation (gumby style) gunfight between the Dali speakers, the white van "Plok" $5K bookshelf speaker bought for $88.00 (cash) @ Target's parking lot, & a Bose lifestyle system.

 

[Alamar]

Alamar,

I suggest you go to AVRant.com and listen to rant number 16. Tom, one of the reviewers for AH, talks about his views on the diminishing returns with all the speakers listed and says that the Dali pair were a night and day difference to the 800 dollar pair. This means that while returns may have been diminished they are extremely noticable.

Oh I already know. In my post I did say that the difference was not as large but still quite noticeable. I guess I did a bad job communicating that though

The returns go down but at least you do get extra value for your $ which I DID learn in the review.

BTW: The more I listen to reviews the higher my budget seems to get

Spending money does not equal quality all I have to say is Nordost Valhalla or Bose. Spending more money in the right places lead to quality increases.

You are of course correct. Wise $ spent will give good returns. Unwise $ spent is useless. Knowing the difference is the key. [and what I'm trying to learn]

As for releaseing the review in time you're probably right. With the "rigor" that I was looking for it would have taken at least 2x-3x as long to get the review out which isn't realistic economically.

 

[avaserfi]

I'll start by stating that I liked the review a lot. However, while reading, I wondered what happened to the Jamo C803's and where they went off to but <Shrugs>, oh' well.

As a big Jamo fan wish those were there too, but J. did that review quiet a while ago, long before the shoot out .

The national magazines do these kinds of comparisons all the time and are fairly consistent at riding the fence. AH never rides the fence and isn’t afraid to hurt feelings. To just come out and say it: Lately I’ve been finding the reviews of the GPS device, video game steering wheel, and <Gulp> even WORSE than the back pack, Cerwin Vega surround system a complete waste of the AH teams talents. But, with articles like this you (stealing from “Dumb & Dumber”) TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELVES. What a fun read.

I can only imagine the backlash, ridicule, and black balling AH gets from a lot of manufacturers for telling the stories behind the stories and giving their HONEST impressions of products out vying for readers dollars. Even when I sometimes disagree with what they write I never question their ethics, ability, or reasoning. As an A/V contractor, I appreciate that AH conducts shoot outs this way and accept, for whatever reasons, why they do or do not include or exclude certain brands or methodologies. It is what it is (which AH always explains up front)… so we should accept it as such, appreciate that they took the time, and then make our individual decisions on pursuing a purchase or, in my case, bringing on a line (RBH).

This is in no way a bash. It’s quite the opposite. I think it was a great read and a bit of a showcase of everyone's talents as evaluators. Another one of my favorites is the T-30LSE review. It made me order not just the pair of T-30LSE’s but also the matching center & surrounds. If Gene says it’s that good, I want to try it (matched with my JL-Audio Gotham Sub). I might even grab a pair of those Dali’s now t see what they’re all about.

I often wonder if the AH readers understand the risk that comes along with honesty and how absolutely cut-throat it is to be Intheindustry (shameless subliminal plug) and writing articles that aren’t always real cushy for these manufacturers?

Very well put!

I'll say this right here and now: I would LOVE to see a claymation (gumby style) gunfight between the Dali speakers, the white van "Plok" $5K bookshelf speaker bought for $88.00 (cash) @ Target's parking lot, & a Bose lifestyle system.

Tom maybe you could do something like this for one of your Avrant videos . That would be hilarious if I had any sort of video editing/making skills I would try!

 

[zhimbo]

Tom [...] says that the Dali pair were a night and day difference to the 800 dollar pair.

Yes, yes...but could even his wife tell the difference?

 

[Davemcc]

Even when I sometimes disagree with what they write I never question their ethics, ability, or reasoning...I appreciate that AH conducts shoot outs this way and accept, for whatever reasons, why they do or do not include or exclude certain brands or methodologies.

I think that you've hit on two important points, as above. It's nice to get four experienced, knowledgeable, articulate reviewers in one room to to evaluate products and give honest, unbiased opinions. Since all the conditions and parameters of the test are disclosed, a reader can take out of it what they will. It's a lot better than some of the corporate boot-licking that I detect in reviews elsewhere.

 

[Sheep]

I too was disappointed that it wasn't blind. Also, I thought a sub should have been added, and conclusions drawn from both vantage points. It ISN'T that much work, especially for an audio review magazine.

IN the end, I'm glad the shoot out was done, and hope to see more in the future, it is a lot more affective in reviewing speakers then single reviews, because you get more speakers per review, and they're compared to similar speakers.

SheepStar

 

[Alamar]

Yes, yes...but could even his wife tell the difference?

Everyone really does get different things from the article.

For example I weighed Gene's input MUCH more highly than the other reviewers because he's had experience with the Dalis and has done a more through investigation of the units so he knows what their flaws are better than the other reviewers.

Also with tests like this if a speaker is colored at the high end but doesn't overdo it [I suspect] that even professional reviewers may state a preference for the speaker even though the sound coming out if it is not really representative of what should be coming out.

As other people have stated I wouldn't run out & get a set of Dalis based on this review. I'd wait for a high-end bookshelf review to come out and see how they do against other 1800 - 2000 $ per pair sets of speakers.

 

[Alamar]

Alamar,

I suggest you go to AVRant.com and listen to rant number 16. Tom, one of the reviewers for AH, talks about his views on the diminishing returns with all the speakers listed and says that the Dali pair were a night and day difference to the 800 dollar pair. This means that while returns may have been diminished they are extremely noticable.

It's interesting how people get different things from the same source material.

Tom indicated that the differences between 200$ - 400$ was vastly greater than the difference between 400-800$ speakers. Many of the 400 to 800 differences were athestic more than pure sound based. [~19:50] Of course my impression is still that 800$ speakers did sound better than 400$ speakers.

While Tom thought that the Dalis were indeed light years better he also said that maybe the speakers being bright could have effected his opinion so they may not have been as superior as his "initial blush" was.

IIRC Gene actually preferred the 800$ speakers to the 1800$ speakers so we need to be careful and not jump to conclusions too quickly ....

***************************************************

I was also glad to hear that Tom voiced many of the exact concerns that I had about the testing. It was obvious to me that in a perfect world Tom would have preferred to have done a more fair set of testing for the bookshelf speaker shootout.

The thing is that the world is simply not perfect[duh]. The thing is you do the best you can with what you have and go from there. No offense to the posters trying to help me out but hearing this from Tom had much more of an impact than hearing it second-hand.

***************************************************

After listening to the Rant I do feel better about the review. I now see that the "big guys" here are just regular guys who love what they do and do the best they can with what they have.

 

[Audioholics]

Lately I’ve been finding the reviews of the GPS device, video game steering wheel, and <Gulp> even WORSE than the back pack, Cerwin Vega surround system a complete waste of the AH teams talents.

Just to make a counterpoint, we have brought in new reviewers to focus on things like this, so it's completely additive, not really taking away anything we're doing. In addition, we find that appealing to a broader base of readers is key to growing the site and enabling us to do even more cool things centering on our core passions.

 

[Davemcc]

Just to make a counterpoint, we have brought in new reviewers to focus on things like this, so it's completely additive, not really taking away anything we're doing. In addition, we find that appealing to a broader base of readers is key to growing the site and enabling us to do even more cool things centering on our core passions.

Audioholics-Lite - for those who lack the passion to experience addiction properly.

 

[Masher]

I enjoy my KEF bookshelf speakers.

 

[Smirnoff]

Through my research, the M3 has been compared to the AV123's X-LS, and the M22 to Ascend's CBM-170(mostly non-SE's) numerous times. So by my deduction, and using only this shootout, they probably would not have fair too well against the pricier speakers.

i did hear the Ascend's CBM-170 myself in my friend's house, i wouldn't say that they can't stand against them.
a problem with the axiom speakers is placement placement and again placement if you place them right you get great bass same goes for soundstage and image

i own M80v2 and M22v2.
i want to know how well the M22v2 can stand again's the RBH Sound MC-6C for instance.


thanks,

 

[Colorado Rob]

Axiom M3v2

In a prior Audioholics shootout, the Axiom M3's scored very well. I would like to hear the reviewers thoughts on how he thought they would compare to the current batch tested.

I own a pair of Axiom M3v2's, powered by an Onkyo A-9555 integrated amp. These are in a large room and are running without a subwoofer.

The Axioms sound fantastic without a sub and play to loud levels, even in this large listening space. I couldn't be more pleased with this setup. In fact, I am on my second pair of M3's...having sold the first pair when I built a pair of DIY speakers. I went back to the Axioms...love their sound.

BTW, the Onkyo integrated amp is a superb match with the Axioms. Very, very smooth sound...no harshness at all. Stereophile's current review of this amp called its sound "tube-like." A perfect match for the Axioms.

 

[gene]

i want to know how well the M22v2 can stand again's the RBH Sound MC-6C for instance.

The M22s are more comparible (I suspect favorably) to the RBH TK 5CT's than the MC6-C's.

As other people have stated I wouldn't run out & get a set of Dalis based on this review. I'd wait for a high-end bookshelf review to come out and see how they do against other 1800 - 2000 $ per pair sets of speakers.

There are a whole lot of great bookshelf speakers in this price class. So far, the best I've heard are the RBH 61-LSE's or 61-SE/Rs in terms of tonal accuracy and overall fidelity. Incidentally, their on/off axis measurements are stellar. Stay tuned as we are currently reviewing the new Usher Berrylium speakers that look quite impressive too.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I, personally, would rather have 1 Porsche GT3 instead of 6 Honda Civics. I just don’t understand your (or anyone else’s) rational that 6 pair crappy speakers trump 1 pair of fabulous speakers. Someone please explain....

Oh, please. We still come back to the lame car comparison. It just doesn't wash, not comparable, period, apples and oranges, bogus.

 

[mtrycrafts]

2. The more $ you spend the better stuff you get.
.

Better how? Audibly different? Aesthetically better? More flexible?

 

[mtrycrafts]

.., in my case, bringing on a line (RBH).
?

Are you behind the RBH speakers or just own them?