Bookshelf Speaker Faceoff 2007

[gus6464]

Agreed, I would love to see a face off between these top lines:

1. aci-safire xl
2. B&W 805
3. Mordaunt short Mezzo 2
4. rbh 661 se
5. onix ref 1's and center
6.kef 201/2
7. Quads 12L
8. monitor audio GSLCR
9. paradigm signature S4

On a side note, is it alright or even better to use some comanies center as Left and right? In particular I am thinking of the quad L2 center and the onix ref 100 av123 center.

Also the PSB Platinum M2, great bookshelves with rockin' bass.

 

[silversurfer]

I was just thinking, it would nice to know what kind of speakers/setup each of the participants has.

 

[mike c]

The faceoff would have had a lot more reliability, and objectivity, if it had been blind. As it is, the reviewers based their conclusions on factors such as the looks of the speakers, on the prices of the speakers, and on their prior experiences with the speakers. None of that leads to an objective review and it is a shame given that making the faceoff blind would not have taken much more work at all.

you have a point on the blind comparison part ...

The conclusions would also have been more useful if the bookshelf speakers had been tested with a sub as well as without one. While using a sub would make it hard to tell how the speakers compared on their own, or whether they really needed a sub, not using a sub means that the reviewers were left to speculate that their conclusions may have been very different if the speakers were mated with a sub (as they probably would have been in the real world).

I disagree with the use of a sub in these comparisons. it is hard enough to match speakers to a sub, then to do it multiple times will take years! (Gene's time ) anyway, a sub will mask the bookshelves weakness/strength in bass ... a sub not mated properly will pull down the points of a bookshelf that is supposed to be good.

it is not as simple as setting as 'small' and setting a crossover of 80 ... some bookshelves will benefit from a high crossover, while some will lose their advantage if they can extend to 45-60hz. we can see how each bookshelf fares as they are run full range, "do they mess up the mids when trying to produce lows?"

off topic:
call me crazy, but I IMAGINE some bookshelves have some sort of subsonic filter on the lows. because they just stop trying to produce the lows. why is it easier to bottom subwoofers than bookshelves? I want to see the driver clanking! work it! [whip sound!]

 

[Alamar]

I'm relatively new, so I assume I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm also confused about why the test was run without base management. I've seen some of the explanations given above but I don't really get it.

I see if you're looking to use these speakers in a compact 2.0 system then the shootout would make perfect sense. I agree that this should be an important aspect of the review.

However I suspect most people [here] would want to run these bookshelf speakers with base management [2.1 / 5.1 / 7.1 /etc.] Without tests done in this environment it seems like the majority of people reading the site have to rely on the reviewer's best guess of how they would think the speakers might sound.

I don't mean my post as a flame [Don't ban me ] -- I'm just confused by the methodology of not testing at all with bass management. An explanation [in simple terms] would be appreciated.

 

[avaserfi]

I'm relatively new, so I assume I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'm also confused about why the test was run without base management. I've seen some of the explanations given above but I don't really get it.

I see if you're looking to use these speakers in a compact 2.0 system then the shootout would make perfect sense. I agree that this should be an important aspect of the review.

However I suspect most people [here] would want to run these bookshelf speakers with base management [2.1 / 5.1 / 7.1 /etc.] Without tests done in this environment it seems like the majority of people reading the site have to rely on the reviewer's best guess of how they would think the speakers might sound.

I don't mean my post as a flame [Don't ban me ] -- I'm just confused by the methodology of not testing at all with bass management. An explanation [in simple terms] would be appreciated.

The main reason for doing this shootout without any bass management is to discover the full range all of these speakers are capable of along with finding out how much it takes to bottom the speakers out.

While it is understandable that many people will use some sort of bass management with these systems adding it to this shoot out would not only add much time but another variable to the testing of the speakers. This method lets us know the true capabilities of these speakers not a given subwoofer/management equipment and let us make our own judgments.

 

[alexsound]

I liked the idea you included Polk audio in the review, a more mainstream
brand (available just about anywhere) than any of the other brands.
I would like to see on the next bookshelf go around, the bigger (more nationally recognized) brands included, like JBL, Infinity, Klipsch, Def Tech, Boston Acoustics, etc. I know you guys have done reviews on the 1st 3 in the past on various models, but I would just like to see how they fare going head to head against the more specialized/higher end guys like a Dali, or Rbh.

 

[toquemon]

Great review!!

It would be nice if you'll include speakers on the 1k-2k range on a future faceoff (Like de Dalis or Onix Ref1 or Von Schweikert VR1). There are a lot of excelent speakers in that price range.

 

[Alamar]

The main reason for doing this shootout without any bass management is to discover the full range all of these speakers are capable of along with finding out how much it takes to bottom the speakers out.

While it is understandable that many people will use some sort of bass management with these systems adding it to this shoot out would not only add much time but another variable to the testing of the speakers. This method lets us know the true capabilities of these speakers not a given subwoofer/management equipment and let us make our own judgments.

I can see the reasoning behind that. I also see that the above testing is a critical point to consider.

I guess the review leaves me feeling a little empty because I'd like to know, for example, how easy it would be to bottom out the Ushers with an 80 Hz crossover. Can you do it? How hard do you have to push the Ushers before they bottom out?

I also wonder if the recommended speakers in certain head-to-head competitions would have been different with managed bass.

 

[avaserfi]

I can see the reasoning behind that. I also see that the above testing is a critical point to consider.

I guess the review leaves me feeling a little empty because I'd like to know, for example, how easy it would be to bottom out the Ushers with an 80 Hz crossover. Can you do it? How hard do you have to push the Ushers before they bottom out?

I also wonder if the recommended speakers in certain head-to-head competitions would have been different with managed bass.

While that is all well and good and many people might wonder that you have to realize that if you are adding more equipment to the mix you are adding more variable which must be accounted for. So if they did what you are asking then you would probably be wondering the exact opposite: How easy is it to bottom out the ushers without a crossover etc...Or how do the Ushers act without a sub, could I get buy without a sub for a little while if I bought them etc...

As Tom said in the new AVrant it is impossible to make everyone happy with a review like this without taking years upon years. Take what you can from this and go listen to the speakers yourself as that is the best gauge of a speaker.

 

[Alamar]

As Tom said in the new AVrant it is impossible to make everyone happy with a review like this without taking years upon years. Take what you can from this and go listen to the speakers yourself as that is the best gauge of a speaker.

You're right there. You'll never please everyone.

You make some points and I guess I understand why the reviewers chose that specific way to have a shootout.

I wonder if in the future if they'd consider a similar shootout with bass management though as that would give me more direct data for how I'd personally like to use the speakers.

 

[mike c]

I wonder if in the future if they'd consider a similar shootout with bass management though as that would give me more direct data for how I'd personally like to use the speakers.

put it this way alamar ...

if a speaker does well WITHOUT bass management, it should also sound good or even better WITH bass management.

I still see no reason to test speakers with bass management, unless in your own home.

 

[twoksl2]

i would definitally like to see a set of the def tech studio monitor 450s in one of the tests. (although maybe not, because i like them, and i don't want to see then get torn to pices ;-)

 

[posies2323]

Thanks for taking the time to review these speakers. I wish time had allowed for blind testing and testing of the speakers set to 'small'.

 

[Smirnoff]

Good article, I was a bit surprised to see there were no entries from axiom in there though considering that they are every bit as popular as the rest of those brand speakers in the shootout.

I was hoping to see some Axiom there as well M3v2, M22v2...
shame you could A\B them to the others, would really like to see what they can do against the more pricey pairs?!?!?

i do hope you'll be able to update that list with more speakers as well...

thanks

 

[avaserfi]

With all the people not reading this thread to find out why certain things that they know should have been done but weren't I have decided to touch on something that no one has brought up:

Why didn't you guys give the speakers guns and let them shoot each other until one was left standing? It is clear to me this is the one and only way to determine the best speaker! Lastly, why didn't you include the Plok speaker I bought from the back of a white van in my local target parking lot? The drivers look like Kevlar so it probably would have taken a few shots before going down.

 

[silversurfer]

I was hoping to see some Axiom there as well M3v2, M22v2...
shame you could A\B them to the others, would really like to see what they can do against the more pricey pairs?!?!?

Through my research, the M3 has been compared to the AV123's X-LS, and the M22 to Ascend's CBM-170(mostly non-SE's) numerous times. So by my deduction, and using only this shootout, they probably would not have fair too well against the pricier speakers.

 

[Alamar]

With all the people not reading this thread to find out why certain things that they know should have been done but weren't I have decided to touch on something that no one has brought up:

Why didn't you guys give the speakers guns and let them shoot each other until one was left standing? It is clear to me this is the one and only way to determine the best speaker! Lastly, why didn't you include the Plok speaker I bought from the back of a white van in my local target parking lot? The drivers look like Kevlar so it probably would have taken a few shots before going down.

And this helped the thread in exactly which way???

 

[avaserfi]

And this helped the thread in exactly which way???

Maybe it will get people to read the thread before posting pointless questions. Clearly one of the writers, and president of the site, thought it made a decent point as he thanked me.

 

[Alamar]

Maybe it will get people to read the thread before posting pointless questions. Clearly one of the writers, and president of the site, thought it made a decent point as he thanked me.

I noticed the thank you already and that made me even more curious as to how the post helped the thread

As for the "pointless" part of the questions I understand that some of the discussion [including my own] hasn't been as constructive as it could have been. That aside there are some people [me] that would actually like to understand the review methodology and testing done.

FYI: Before someone starts thinking that I'm a basher I've already recommended this particular shootout for people to look over as it would be extremely valueable for their particular purposes.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Perhaps I misunderstood your post?

EDIT: Tried Posting this yesterday and it ended up in an entirely different thread, weird.

In my opinion this is, to date, the penultimate review written by Audioholics staffers. To me it reaffirmed what I've always felt to be true: Their is no best, only different. It also confirms that at $1800/pr for speakers you still haven't reached a minuscule difference in quality over less expensive models, ie a diminishing return.

Before anyone decides to start saving for the Dali's, understand they were $1000 dollars more than the next most expensive speakers. For that you could have gotten two pairs of any of the others, and six pair of the least expensive. Also consider there are plenty of other offerings at this same price point, so don't rush to judgment based on this review alone.

Maybe my comprehension needs some dusting up, but I’m fairly certain that they not only each picked a “best”, but that the overwhelming theme was that you DO in fact (with the brands tested) get what you pay for. There was a large difference between the $200 speaker & the $400 speaker in favor of the more expensive model for each of the reviewers and on and on up the price scale. Even in the face of a review where such statements are repeated, there is still sentiment that there isn't much of a difference. Why?

I, personally, would rather have 1 Porsche GT3 instead of 6 Honda Civics. I just don’t understand your (or anyone else’s) rational that 6 pair crappy speakers trump 1 pair of fabulous speakers. Someone please explain....