Best Amp under 1K for HT

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The Denon was/is a 2808 110wpc and I never tried it with the PT800's. I don't know a lot about how room size affects clipping but I do know that when the Denon reached about -20 it started to sound bad and by -15 it was very bad and with the XPA-5 I could go past 0 with no noticeable distortion.
Thanks for the clarification. Everything else being equal room size has a huge impact on the SLP you will get from your listening position at a given volume. So if you need to turn the volume to -10 in a large room, you may get the same perceived loudness at -20 in a smaller room. The 2808 is a little weak for some not too easy to drive tower speakers but should be fine for the PT800 as long as the room is not too big for them and the owner doesn't listen to SPL anywhere near 0. Given your preference to listen at 0, I can understand why you would not go back to an AVR but for many people AVR could offer more than enough power for their needs. I typically listen at between -30 to -15 depending on the source and I experienced no distortion with any of my AVRs, with or without the help of my amps.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So if you need to turn the volume to -10 in a large room, you may get the same perceived loudness at -20 in a smaller room.
Yeah, I get 85dBA @ -18.5dB volume in my 14'W x 17'L x 15'H HT room, and I get 85dBA @ -10dB volume in my 20'W x 18'L x 10'H family room.
 
K

k_lewis

Junior Audioholic
Thanks... I'll try to give an update after I setup amp and then after I get my living room treated.
Yep it's almost like Xmas every time I get to add a new piece of gear and re-tune everything- Including a few arguments with the wife about furniture placement :D. Again, good luck and hope it rocks.

Today I just received a shiny new Samsung UN65C8000 65" LED set- It will fill the void in the theater room until after the remodel and projector / screen goes in. This evening will be spent dialing in the display and watching a few fav BD's.
 
S

spike99

Junior Audioholic
Thanks... I'll try to give an update after I setup amp and then after I get my living room treated.
Just to give an update... Got XPA & monoprice cables.

After plugging everything couple of issues:

1. I have a BDI 8429 furniture cabinet and XPA was really deep and I'm no longer able to close the back panel. Plugging cables in the back... no longer able to close back panel...
2. After plugging everything... Initially, audio only came out from Center and SL. No matter if I plug & unplug cables... In then end when I was about to give up... I pushed plugs and gave them one last push... and it worked.

One thing to note was that these monoprice RCA cables were very difficult to plug in (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=2681&seq=1&format=2). Just doesn't seem normal that I have to push in these plugs so hard to get a good connection.

I have plugged in other RCA cables... and they usually plug in smooth but not these.... I wonder if I actually got the correct RCA cables ?

Is this normal ?
 
Mike Ronesia

Mike Ronesia

Junior Audioholic
Just to give an update... Got XPA & monoprice cables.

After plugging everything couple of issues:

1. I have a BDI 8429 furniture cabinet and XPA was really deep and I'm no longer able to close the back panel. Plugging cables in the back... no longer able to close back panel...
2. After plugging everything... Initially, audio only came out from Center and SL. No matter if I plug & unplug cables... In then end when I was about to give up... I pushed plugs and gave them one last push... and it worked.

One thing to note was that these monoprice RCA cables were very difficult to plug in (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=2681&seq=1&format=2). Just doesn't seem normal that I have to push in these plugs so hard to get a good connection.

I have plugged in other RCA cables... and they usually plug in smooth but not these.... I wonder if I actually got the correct RCA cables ?

Is this normal ?
I've noticed this too with the monoprice cables I got for my XPA-5. The good news is once in they are a solid connection. I found twisting a little as I put them on to help.

So, did the amp make any difference in your SQ?
 
Mike Ronesia

Mike Ronesia

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for the clarification. Everything else being equal room size has a huge impact on the SLP you will get from your listening position at a given volume. So if you need to turn the volume to -10 in a large room, you may get the same perceived loudness at -20 in a smaller room. The 2808 is a little weak for some not too easy to drive tower speakers but should be fine for the PT800 as long as the room is not too big for them and the owner doesn't listen to SPL anywhere near 0. Given your preference to listen at 0, I can understand why you would not go back to an AVR but for many people AVR could offer more than enough power for their needs. I typically listen at between -30 to -15 depending on the source and I experienced no distortion with any of my AVRs, with or without the help of my amps.
I don't have an SPL meter but I guess I was under the assumption that doing a setup with the mic would adjust the volume level so that reference level was "reference level" and even 1k mono blocks should still have the same SPL if setup properly when the Prepro is set at it's designated reference setting.

I know when I added the XPA-5 and re-ran the setup, it set the speakers to a negative number. Can't remember the exact change but I know they lowered.

Please help me understand how this is supposed to work.
 
S

spike99

Junior Audioholic
I've noticed this too with the monoprice cables I got for my XPA-5. The good news is once in they are a solid connection. I found twisting a little as I put them on to help.

So, did the amp make any difference in your SQ?
I only watched TV yesterday and have not had a chance to watch movies or listen to music... but the initial impression was that I noticed more the center channel but this could be because I may need to re-run audio setup.

Also, I normally watch TV maybe with db levels in the -20's and watching movies I normally don't go below -18 db cause I feel it would disturb the neighbors too much. Yesterday, I found my self adjusting level for TV to -14 db and did not get that feeling of "its too loud". Not sure if this makes sense because my thought was that If I set AVR to lets say -20db without AMP and then after introducing AMP the noise level would be higher if I set same -20 db level in AVR. Does this actually makes sense ?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
One thing to note was that these monoprice RCA cables were very difficult to plug in (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=2681&seq=1&format=2). Just doesn't seem normal that I have to push in these plugs so hard to get a good connection.

I have plugged in other RCA cables... and they usually plug in smooth but not these.... I wonder if I actually got the correct RCA cables ?

Is this normal ?
Ah, so-called "premium" cables are sometimes difficult to plug in. The "cheaper" regular monoprice cables are easier to plug in.:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I normally watch TV maybe with db levels in the -20dBs (WITHOUT AMP)
Yesterday, I found myself adjusting level for TV to -14 db and did not get that feeling of "its too loud" (WITH AMP)
And this is without changing the Speaker Level Setting in your AVR?

Perhaps the voltage gain of the AVR is 6dB higher than the Amp????

As some of us have already implied, you most likely don't need an amp.

I don't know.

If I ADD an amp to my AVR and find out that I have to CRANK UP the volume knob just to achieve the same exact volume as before (without changing anything settings), I would not be happy.

I think most of the time, you should get the same exact volume as before.
 
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S

spike99

Junior Audioholic
And this is without changing the Speaker Level Setting in your AVR?

Perhaps the voltage gain of the AVR is 6dB higher than the Amp????

As some of us have already implied, you most likely don't need an amp.

I don't know.

If I ADD an amp to my AVR and find out that I have to CRANK UP the volume knob just to achieve the same exact volume as before (without changing anything settings), I would not be happy.

I think most of the time, you should get the same exact volume as before.
Honestly, I really don't watch much TV, when I sit down is really to watch Blu Ray Movies and now I'm starting to do some Netflix streaming. Although I was cranking up the volume... I did get a sense that it was clearer and it appeared that sound was coming more from center channel. I had almost the same feeling when I was auditioning for speakers... They put 2 tower speakers and instead of feeling sound coming from speakers on the side.... sound appeared to come from the center even though they had no center channel.

Again, I do know that I need to rerun auto setup and need to watch a couple of movies before I give my final impressions :)
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Although I was cranking up the volume... I did get a sense that it was clearer and it appeared that sound was coming more from center channel. I had almost the same feeling when I was auditioning for speakers... They put 2 tower speakers and instead of feeling sound coming from speakers on the side.... sound appeared to come from the center even though they had no center channel.
If all you are listening to is -18dB volume on your processor, I don't think adding an amp will make the sound clearer.

The amp is not going to change the imaging of the sound or increase the clarity; the speakers do that.

Some people will manually increase the center channel level on the processor by +2dB to get more volume from the center speaker.
 
S

spike99

Junior Audioholic
If all you are listening to is -18dB volume on your processor, I don't think adding an amp will make the sound clearer.

The amp is not going to change the imaging of the sound or increase the clarity; the speakers do that.

Some people will manually increase the center channel level on the processor by +2dB to get more volume from the center speaker.
I was just commenting my perception from what I was hearing... I will be re-running audio setup and see if it adjusts any of the chanel levels.

Over the weekend, I will be watching movies and will have a better feel about having an amp.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I was just commenting my perception from what I was hearing... I will be re-running audio setup and see if it adjusts any of the chanel levels.

Over the weekend, I will be watching movies and will have a better feel about having an amp.
If you want to do a better comparison with and without amp you should listen in pure direct mode and use a SPL meter to try making sure you are listening at about the same loudness.

There are many things that could affect your judgement, the louder generally would let you hear more details. You know you have more power on hand now so you will naturally be looking for improved sound quality. If you try listen hard for it you will find it. Regardless, more power on hand is always a good thing so just relax and enjoy.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I don't have an SPL meter but I guess I was under the assumption that doing a setup with the mic would adjust the volume level so that reference level was "reference level" and even 1k mono blocks should still have the same SPL if setup properly when the Prepro is set at it's designated reference setting.

I know when I added the XPA-5 and re-ran the setup, it set the speakers to a negative number. Can't remember the exact change but I know they lowered.

Please help me understand how this is supposed to work.
Sorry Mike, I would love to respond but I am not sure if I understand your question.
 
DenPureSound

DenPureSound

Senior Audioholic
Just to give an update... Got XPA & monoprice cables.

After plugging everything couple of issues:

1. I have a BDI 8429 furniture cabinet and XPA was really deep and I'm no longer able to close the back panel. Plugging cables in the back... no longer able to close back panel...
2. After plugging everything... Initially, audio only came out from Center and SL. No matter if I plug & unplug cables... In then end when I was about to give up... I pushed plugs and gave them one last push... and it worked.

One thing to note was that these monoprice RCA cables were very difficult to plug in (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=2681&seq=1&format=2). Just doesn't seem normal that I have to push in these plugs so hard to get a good connection.

I have plugged in other RCA cables... and they usually plug in smooth but not these.... I wonder if I actually got the correct RCA cables ?

Is this normal ?
Spike99 -- I am running the same cables from MonoPrice and they are hard to plug in, but that is a GOOD THING. Your fine and AOK w/ them. Good selection.
 
S

spike99

Junior Audioholic
I was just commenting my perception from what I was hearing... I will be re-running audio setup and see if it adjusts any of the chanel levels.

Over the weekend, I will be watching movies and will have a better feel about having an amp.
OK, So I reran audio setup and the results for Channel levels are shown below.
Before (Without XPA-5):
Front L: -2db
Center: 1.5db
Front R: -1db
S R: 0db
S L: 1.5db

After (With XPA-5):
Front L: -4db
Center: -0.5db
Front R: -3.5db
S R: -2.5db
S L: -0.5db

Looks like audio setup reduced channel levels for all speakers... Not sure what this means... I suppose it implies that there was a higher sound with amp ?

I have watched a movie and listened to some music... I kept sound level at -18db where I normally watch movies... Yeah it sounded good but I really can't say how much better it is vs AVR without amp. It's not like I'm in best buy store where they switch components seemlessly and you can probably hear a difference.

I really don't feel like going thru the trouble of plugging and unplugging cables to see if I hear a difference. I do feel that it was a good buy.

On a different note... I have a question about speaker location. For my surrounds... I currently have them sitting on table stands... The problem is that when I sit down on the right side of couch and I turn left I don't have eye contact with SL... same scenario when I sit on other end. I believe the best solution is to buy a pair of speaker stands for surrounds or install some type of stand against wall ? Basically have them at a higher position where there is no interference with couch ?
 
K

k_lewis

Junior Audioholic
Looks like audio setup reduced channel levels for all speakers... Not sure what this means... I suppose it implies that there was a higher sound with amp ?

I have watched a movie and listened to some music... I kept sound level at -18db where I normally watch movies... Yeah it sounded good but I really can't say how much better it is vs AVR without amp. It's not like I'm in best buy store where they switch components seemlessly and you can probably hear a difference.

I really don't feel like going thru the trouble of plugging and unplugging cables to see if I hear a difference. I do feel that it was a good buy.

On a different note... I have a question about speaker location. For my surrounds... I currently have them sitting on table stands... The problem is that when I sit down on the right side of couch and I turn left I don't have eye contact with SL... same scenario when I sit on other end. I believe the best solution is to buy a pair of speaker stands for surrounds or install some type of stand against wall ? Basically have them at a higher position where there is no interference with couch ?
My nickels worth- You are on a path that is perfectly normal to upgrading your sound. Adding an amplifier is an excellent first start and you should not feel like it was a bad decision. It was money well spent. It will increase your relative volume output resulting in lower gain settings on the processor, because the amplifier is probably more sensitive to the input it is receiving and more than likely is a lot more efficient. It will not dramatically enhance your sound or provide greater clarity / sonic characteristics. Overall the amp is going to take exactly what you feed it and spit it back out. A good amp will do this without introducing additional qualities, although there is a discernible sonic difference between tube based amps and digital / solid state amps- Which is why pure 2ch audiophiles go for tube amps and home theater dictates the use of digital / solid state amps.

In order to achieve marked improvements in your sound, other measures are necessary such as moving to a better quality of transport, processor, and speakers. For a rough example, you could have a $900 preamp/processor with built in amplifier, $900 speakers and mid-line cables / interconnects, and then add a $10k Theta amplifier. The system will sound pretty much the same with the Theta, but of course there will be more power on tap. The Theta is sitting there waiting for a comparable quality preamp on one and and speakers on the other end in order to really shine- But at that point all it is really doing is transparently reproducing the high quality input out to the high quality speakers.

I'd probably suggest a higher end processor as your next upgrade as it will give you the most readily apparent sonic improvements. Transport next. Speakers next after that, if warranted.

My upgrade path from an all in one receiver amp was as follows:
1. moved to a separate amp (minor difference noted here)
2. moved to better cables / interconnects (no difference noted here)
3. moved to better / dedicated processor (Big difference noted here- on everything)
3a. tried different processor, better on surround but horrid on 2ch
3b. tried different processor, better on features and sound in all respects, traded in 1st processor and kept this one.
4. moved to better quality amplifier (no difference noted here)
5. moved to better quality DVD and CD transports (minor sound difference, major picture quality difference)
6. moved to better speakers (martin logan / energy / REL combo) - Big difference noted here in sound, spaciousness, bass, etc.
7. moved to better preamp / processor - minor difference noted here, better channel separation and effects for movies, slightly cleaner 2ch music, better / newer features, allows me to convert all interconnects to XLR. No real changes in terms of sound spaciousness.
8. moved to synergistic reference speaker cables and XLR interconnects with active shielding, and added a TrippLite AVR for entire system. - (slight audible difference in 'blackness' of sound, cleaner picture for TV and DVDs)
9. moved to Genesis 6.1 speakers - huge difference, gains from all above changes now realized. Extremely spacious sound, the ultimate.

High end speakers were the last step of my upgrade evolution path- I was quite pleased with my Martin Logan fronts / centers, Energy surrounds and REL Storm subs, but was a bit puzzled why adding vastly better components did not make much difference in overall sound quality. Once I swapped in the Genesis 6.1 speaker system the difference was night / day astounding- With the same exact gear. At that point, my previous speakers were the limiting factor and while my pre/pro, amps, interconnects etc were extremely high quality, I was not able to realize those gains until I added some speakers that could play back the sonic improvements. When I was starting out and just got to the point of adding a separate amp, upgrading the processor after that gave me the next big leap in sonic improvement. The whole point of this is that once you upgrade a component to a higher quality, you often don't get the full benefit of it until all other pieces of the chain are at the same quality level or higher.

On your other item:
For surround speaker placement, higher and 8 or more feet away is typically better. surrounds are there to provide ambient effects with some localization, so having them at a distance to maximize that effect would be better. If possible, do a wall mount with them about 3/4 up to top of wall or all the way at top of wall, angled slightly down towards your listening position. Surround sides should be positioned to the direct side of, or just slightly forward of the primary seating. Sometimes slightly behind the seating works as well, it depends on the room and what type of speakers you have (monopole, dipole, line array, etc), and if you have rear surround speakers or not. Typically setting the surrounds on a stand at couch height is not the best setup.
 
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S

spike99

Junior Audioholic
Nice upgrade path k_lewis... As part of buying separate amp I was planning on moving to better dedicated processor but decided to leave that upgrade for a later date.... I was checking price for Genesis 6.1 speakers... uff too expensive for me :) Especially since I recently bought B&W speakers.

In terms of my surrounds... I do have them too close... about 2 feet away on my right side... hence too close. Can you recommend on wall mounts that I can get ?

Thanks.
 
S

spike99

Junior Audioholic
In order to achieve marked improvements in your sound, other measures are necessary such as moving to a better quality of transport, processor, and speakers. For a rough example, you could have a $900 preamp/processor with built in amplifier, $900 speakers and mid-line cables / interconnects, and then add a $10k Theta amplifier. The system will sound pretty much the same with the Theta, but of course there will be more power on tap. The Theta is sitting there waiting for a comparable quality preamp on one and and speakers on the other end in order to really shine- But at that point all it is really doing is transparently reproducing the high quality input out to the high quality speakers.

I'd probably suggest a higher end processor as your next upgrade as it will give you the most readily apparent sonic improvements. Transport next. Speakers next after that, if warranted.

My upgrade path from an all in one receiver amp was as follows:
1. moved to a separate amp (minor difference noted here)
2. moved to better cables / interconnects (no difference noted here)
3. moved to better / dedicated processor (Big difference noted here- on everything)
3a. tried different processor, better on surround but horrid on 2ch
3b. tried different processor, better on features and sound in all respects, traded in 1st processor and kept this one.
4. moved to better quality amplifier (no difference noted here)
5. moved to better quality DVD and CD transports (minor sound difference, major picture quality difference)
6. moved to better speakers (martin logan / energy / REL combo) - Big difference noted here in sound, spaciousness, bass, etc.
7. moved to better preamp / processor - minor difference noted here, better channel separation and effects for movies, slightly cleaner 2ch music, better / newer features, allows me to convert all interconnects to XLR. No real changes in terms of sound spaciousness.
8. moved to synergistic reference speaker cables and XLR interconnects with active shielding, and added a TrippLite AVR for entire system. - (slight audible difference in 'blackness' of sound, cleaner picture for TV and DVDs)
9. moved to Genesis 6.1 speakers - huge difference, gains from all above changes now realized. Extremely spacious sound, the ultimate.
I don't plan on upgrading processor right now but wanted to check when you said "a higher end processor as your next upgrade ", which higher end processor do you recommend ? Just so that I can keep an eye on this... and possible future upgrade.
 
DenPureSound

DenPureSound

Senior Audioholic
I had a Denon AVR about 5 Years ago 140 X 7 and after about a month I ended up giving it away for free. It did now work in my system at all. Made my 9K speakers (that's with out subs) sound like a $2.-- system. I don't think that AVR puts out more than 50 watts X 7 . Specs don't mean nothing to me. I need results. Even with the volume all the way up I couldn't wake up the neighbours, and I live in an apartment complex. What you need is real power and then you'll be OK. Even if you get a good 100 watt amp it will sound better than what you have in that AVR. IMO any decent system should have a minimum of 200 watts per channel, anything less is a waste of money.
WALTER --
Exactly the truth... I have a Denon AVR-3311CI, and it Protected itself driving 5 channels in Mult Ch Stereo mode at +12db on Vol knob (-80 to +18db). So after much discussion ended up with the EMOtiva XPA-5 that will drive ALL FIVE CHANNELS with no detectable distortion out of the ballpark. At -10db in STEREO Mode it is screaming in SPL, but that is with Klipsch 8Ω loads at 98db sensitivity!

The fact is that most of these AVR's have very weak so-called Amps built-into them and that is why they only weigh around 27# vs. the EMO XPA-5 weighing in at 66 Pounds.

Very Happy w/ my Denon AVR as the frontend pre/pro, and letting the EMO do all the heavy lifting. Plenty of headroom now for Music in Stereo Mode, or Movies in DSP Modes, with IMPACT !!
 
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