B&W Nautilus vs Sonus Faber Cremonas

[AJinFLA]

I am curious about the Gradient Revolution "Earl" challenge.

You may have to register to see it objectives-loudspeaker-small-room-subjective-study-results.pdf
Here is the post

How much do Gradient Revolutions cost?

Not sure. Around $4k in 1994, $5k in 2004

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There can be http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/photos/livg9-small2.jpg


Linkwitz, like the EE's who designed the JBL LSR's, are quite aware of the required voltages for the specific drivers bandpass.


Hence their unpopularity or rejection amongst the audiophile jewelry crowd


There is, but not officially, so more of a 2ch, than HT.....sort of like what Greg is(was) looking for.

cheers

AJ

I guess one could just get five Orions. Do they sell a single Orion (center channel)?

 

[AJinFLA]

I guess one could just get five Orions. Do they sell a single Orion (center channel)?

If your pockets were deep and you don't mind a divorce, sure.
Use as surround channels would be excessive and there would be better options.
Again, not saying go buy 'em, I'm saying go listen. May or may not be for you. I would (generously) estimate less than half a percent of so called "audiophiles" actually (as opposed to virtually) attend live unamplified instrument (classical, jazz, big band, etc) music, have familiarity and demand that type of reproduction fidelity (this would include "Front of House" knob twisters ).
So listen and decide for yourself.

cheers,
AJ

 

[randyb]

You may have to register to see it objectives-loudspeaker-small-room-subjective-study-results.pdf
Here is the post


Not sure. Around $4k in 1994, $5k in 2004

I think that is the comparo that some members of the Detroit Audio club attended. I knew about that one...but thanks.

 

[tonmeister]

Out of curiosity, have heard his 2ch Orion++ setup?

No I have not.

What percentage of your music library is surround?
Out of my 1000+ collection, I have maybe 20 surround SACD and DVD-A, most of which are "special effects" rather than any form of "realism".
What would you suggest a Dark Age guy like me do with those 1000 stereo recordings on my HD?

I don't know the exact percentage but I might have 50 surround sound music albums - not including the DVD/Blu-ray music concerts.

In the car or home I listen to stereo material through a 2-to-7 channel up-mixer. 99% of all movies are surround as are most of the HD television programs I watch. I only listen to stereo when forced to (e.g. headphones on Ipod), which is increasingly rare.

 

[Alex2507]

I listen to stereo material through a 2-to-7 channel up-mixer.

I'm going to guess ... Logic7 !!!

I just got stereo figured out!

Now I gotta give this a go but I'll tell ya that I yanked my DVD-A/SACD player in favor of a Blu-ray player and focused on doing stereo right for music with externally amp'ed and EQ'ed mains. You are definitely complicating my life.

Thanks.

 

[AJinFLA]

No I have not.

Perhaps you should. I'm sure he'd welcome you. Or, there may be someone closer that could.

I don't know the exact percentage but I might have 50 surround sound music albums - not including the DVD/Blu-ray music concerts.

I didn't include DVD/Blu-ray music concerts either, though I have plenty of those. Consider yourself lucky that you don't have hundreds (or thousands) of stereo recordings of music since the Dark Ages .

In the car or home I listen to stereo material through a 2-to-7 channel up-mixer.

Hmmmm . You mean something like this?

Yeah, like Linkwitz, I've used a similar setup with HK receivers for years. Seems like you might not be so different from us Dark Age guys .

99% of all movies are surround as are most of the HD television programs I watch. I only listen to stereo when forced to (e.g. headphones on Ipod), which is increasingly rare.

Well, I like listening to reproduction often also, although I listen to far more music that watch movies. But how often do you find yourself at classical or jazz type productions? Personally, I think that sort of person is most likely to be drawn to an Orion type system. So it's definitely not for the majority (maybe just old farts and a few middle age freaks like myself? )

cheers,

AJ

 

[jostenmeat]

But how often do you find yourself at classical or jazz type productions? Personally, I think that sort of person is most likely to be drawn to an Orion type system. So it's definitely not for the majority (maybe just old farts and a few middle age freaks like myself? )

I've probably seen and/or performed in hundreds (all my formal education has been in classical music, but I was a jazz fan as well for a great part of that). I chose electrostats, and while not Orions, they are dipolar. I aimed to listen to 50 pairs, got about half way there over maybe four months. I regret that I never had a chance to listen to Linkwitz/Orion speakers. I am not sure, but I think a pipe organist recommended that I do, but unfortunately I did not take up his advice.

Out of curiosity, how much have you treated the front and back wall? I'm mostly curious about the front, and how many feet away the speakers are placed from the front wall. Thanks.

 

[Nuance AH]

If your pockets were deep and you don't mind a divorce, sure.
Use as surround channels would be excessive and there would be better options.
Again, not saying go buy 'em, I'm saying go listen. May or may not be for you. I would (generously) estimate less than half a percent of so called "audiophiles" actually (as opposed to virtually) attend live unamplified instrument (classical, jazz, big band, etc) music, have familiarity and demand that type of reproduction fidelity (this would include "Front of House" knob twisters ).
So listen and decide for yourself.

cheers,
AJ

You're probably right. I am one of those that occasionally attends live un-amplified music events (and amplified, for what its worth), and using it as a reference is great, but there is just one problem: there is no recording industry standard (which has already been pointed out, of course). Until one is implemented, well...

Probably a stupid question, but for curiosity's sake, what is your music system comprised of, Dr. Olive? I recall seeing somewhere it implemented some higher end JBL speakers? If you don't want to share I completely understand.

 

[tonmeister]

Perhaps you should. I'm sure he'd welcome you. Or, there may be someone closer that could.

Would love to measure and evaluate a pair.

I didn't include DVD/Blu-ray music concerts either, though I have plenty of those. Consider yourself lucky that you don't have hundreds (or thousands) of stereo recordings of music since the Dark Ages .

I have about 500-600 CD's from the Dark Ages that I've ripped to iTunes which get streamed to an Apple TV connected to an HK Logic 7 upmixer.

Hmmmm . You mean something like this?

Yeah, like Linkwitz, I've used a similar setup with HK receivers for years. Seems like you might not be so different from us Dark Age guys .

So if he's experienced multichannel music, why waste time trying to recreate the experience with 2 channels, when the obvious answer is "you can't"!

Well, I like listening to reproduction often also, although I listen to far more music that watch movies. But how often do you find yourself at classical or jazz type productions?

Not as often I wish. I've been to classical music events at Disney Hall in LA twice in the last 6 months. For me, it sounded more like a multichannel experience (envelopment, spaciousness, etc) than a spatially deprived stereo one: thank God considering the price of the tickets!

I quickly polled the rest of the audience comprised mostly of octogenarians sporting hearing aids and pace makers, and it was even obvious to them when the orchestra switched from 68 to 2 channels.

 

[GO-NAD!]

So if he's experienced multichannel music, why waste time trying to recreate the experience with 2 channels, when the obvious answer is "you can't"!

Maybe Mr. Linkwitz is simply trying to extract the best possible performance from 2 channels. I agree that trying to reproduce the sense of envelopment one gets in a good concert hall from 2 channels in a typical private home is probably impossible. But, as I stated previously, in the listening rooms of many homes, going beyond 2 channels is not a practical option.

Until it becomes standard industry practice on the part of home constructors, to incorporate room layouts that are quite conducive to multi-channel sound systems, there will still be a significant market for 2 channel setups. That's not even counting the millions of existing homes that aren't friendly to multi-channel setups.

So, if he's endeavouring to expand the boundaries of 2 channel performance, I'm all for it and don't believe that he's "tilting at windmills"...

 

[randyb]

I quickly polled the rest of the audience comprised mostly of octogenarians sporting hearing aids and pace makers, and it was even obvious to them when the orchestra switched from 68 to 2 channels.

Now that is funny!

 

[Alex2507]

Now that is funny!

Thanks, I didn't get that the first time.

 

[Matt34]

You're probably right. I am one of those that occasionally attends live un-amplified music events (and amplified, for what its worth), and using it as a reference is great, but there is just one problem: there is no recording industry standard (which has already been pointed out, of course). Until one is implemented, well...

Probably a stupid question, but for curiosity's sake, what is your music system comprised of, Dr. Olive? I recall seeing somewhere it implemented some higher end JBL speakers? If you don't want to share I completely understand.

I think he posted it once on AVS, believed he has some older higer-end Infinitys.

 

[Alex2507]

I think he posted it once on AVS, believed he has some older higer-end Infinitys.

He's saving up for some Primuses.

So I get my Logic 7 7 CH Music and Dolby PLIIx 7 CH Mucic all dialed in and throw some Carl Orf and Bach on to check it out.
This must be what the conductor feels like.

I have a strong feeling that I am like really prone to the power of suggestion.

 

[AJinFLA]

I've probably seen and/or performed in hundreds (all my formal education has been in classical music, but I was a jazz fan as well for a great part of that). I chose electrostats, and while not Orions, they are dipolar. I aimed to listen to 50 pairs, got about half way there over maybe four months. I regret that I never had a chance to listen to Linkwitz/Orion speakers. I am not sure, but I think a pipe organist recommended that I do, but unfortunately I did not take up his advice.

There is a lot of similarity to the sound of Stats, except the piston source drivers of the Orions displace much more air, so are capable of greater output and dynamic range, especially in the bass. I think like your friend, you would enjoy pipe organ on them. Multi-sub advocate Dr Geddes admits (with the mandatory caveat ) that the 2ch dipole bass from the Orion is "very good". Check out the whole thread if you get a chance.

Out of curiosity, how much have you treated the front and back wall?

None. There is zero "treatment" anywhere, unless you consider normal home decor - sofas, rug, wall paintings, etc. to be treatment.

I'm mostly curious about the front, and how many feet away the speakers are placed from the front wall. Thanks.

4 feet.
Here is a basic guide for placement of source types in rooms. The site has a wealth of info if you have a chance to peruse it.

cheers,

AJ

 

[tonmeister]

I think he posted it once on AVS, believed he has some older higer-end Infinitys.

No, I have B&W 802N's. (speaker B in this graph ).

Seriously, I have Infinity Intermezzo 4.1T (speaker I) for front channels, and Infinity Prelude Towers w/o subs (Speaker P ) for surrounds.

For me, the Intermezzo's were a good value because they were 1/2 the price of the Preludes and were rated only 0.5 preference rating lower than the Preludes in controlled double-blind tests.

 

[AJinFLA]

Would love to measure and evaluate a pair.

Could the shuffler handle such an active system? Where/how are the wires routed? Or are you thinking your own living room?

I have about 500-600 CD's from the Dark Ages that I've ripped to iTunes which get streamed to an Apple TV connected to an HK Logic 7 upmixer.

To be honest, I tried Logic7 (as well as a great many other surround formats) and found them unsatisfactory. Like SL, I much prefer using only the decorrelated channels to add ambiance/space and leave the front channel "auditory scene" untouched. From my acoustic memory of live events, this sounds more realistic.
Like a true dark age guy, the rips to my HD are straight WAV.

So if he's experienced multichannel music, why waste time trying to recreate the experience with 2 channels, when the obvious answer is "you can't"!

You may want to consider the opposite. Since he is not quite as in the dark about multi-ch surround as you had once presumed, you may want to look into the type of 2ch auditory scene he is experiencing. It may be a bit different form your lifetime acclimation of 2 box speakers sitting in front of you.

Not as often I wish. I've been to classical music events at Disney Hall in LA twice in the last 6 months. For me, it sounded more like a multichannel experience (envelopment, spaciousness, etc) than a spatially deprived stereo one: thank God considering the price of the tickets!
I quickly polled the rest of the audience comprised mostly of octogenarians sporting hearing aids and pace makers, and it was even obvious to them when the orchestra switched from 68 to 2 channels.

So now we just need to "shuffle" those listeners between that concert hall and a 2ch/surround living room space with a live feed, in less than what, a second or so?

cheers,

AJ

 

[nibhaz]

I have a strong feeling that I am like really prone to the power of suggestion.

Here you go alex!

Stupid engagement ring...

 

[tonmeister]

Could the shuffler handle such an active system? Where/how are the wires routed? Or are you thinking your own living room?

Yes we can test active loudspeaker systems - like the JBL LSR and its competitors - in our Multichannel Lab. That's how I would test the Orions against our best speakers and competitors.

To be honest, I tried Logic7 (as well as a great many other surround formats) and found them unsatisfactory. Like SL, I much prefer using only the decorrelated channels to add ambiance/space and leave the front channel "auditory scene" untouched. From my acoustic memory of live events, this sounds more realistic.
Like a true dark age guy, the rips to my HD are straight WAV.

I've tested most of the commercial passive matrix up-mixers and they all have their strengths and weaknesses: steering artifacts and phasinesss/timbral colorations are the most common problem, and its audibility is very program dependent, as well as listening seat and room acoustic-dependent (room reflections will mask steering artifacts to some extent).

We have a new up-mixing technology that solves steering artifacts, and has many other spatial enhancements.

You may want to consider the opposite. Since he is not quite as in the dark about multi-ch surround as you had once presumed, you may want to look into the type of 2ch auditory scene he is experiencing. It may be a bit different form your lifetime acclimation of 2 box speakers sitting in front of you.

I think I will let David Clark finish his research and report back before I spend any effort on this. According to what I've read so far, the auditory scene in stereo productions does not begin to approximate what his listening panel experiences while attending live concerts in Detroit ...Of course, this is totally to be expected.

So now we just need to "shuffle" those listeners between that concert hall and a 2ch/surround living room space with a live feed, in less than what, a second or so?
cheers,

AJ

Clark's listeners are doing this already although the time gap between comparisons of the two experiences is measured in hours/days - not seconds.

I know you are just kidding, but these live versus recorded/reproduced experiments are severely flawed from a methodological point of view. They don't take into account human adaptation to room acoustics, flaws in the recording methods used for capturing the live event that make it impossible to match the live experience before you begin listening to its reproduction, and a host of other issues and biases that invalidate the test.

This is a long debate that I don't really want to get into now, but perhaps I will make it a topic in a future blog posting.