B&W Nautilus vs Sonus Faber Cremonas

[greggp2]

Was hoping to get some opinions. I got the bug again and just recently upgraded my components and am considering doing the same with my speakers.

I just picked up an Outlaw 7700 Amp (7x200 true balanced) with an Onkyo 886. The amp should be in on Tuesday.

I currently have B&W 802's with an HTM1 Center channel, but have always had this thing for Sonus Faber speakers. Aside from being beautifully crafted, I hear they are much warmer and give a better and deeper sound stage then the B&W's. Does anyone have any experience with Sonus Faber or possibly compared both?

Love to get some input!

 

[Seth=L]

A properly set up pair of 802s should be very accurate, more so than anything that Sonus Faber offers to my knowledge. The Sonus Fabers are probably more laid back because they taper off the higher end frequencies. A good equalizer paired with your 802s could render the same results and cost you significantly less money. Given that they 802s are very linear you can virtually get any sound you want out of them with an EQ.

 

[WmAx]

The 802N is a far better speaker. Of course the 802 does not sound perfect out of the box. It's designed as a neutral monitor, and is very popular in the world's best sound studios as a result. But you are lucky, in that the neutrality of this speaker means you can have it sound like just about anything you could want. Use a precision EQ system to adjust the sound to your preferences. It's that easy. Don't give in to audiophile stupidity and act like EQs are not the answer.

If you want simplicity, get a nice 10 band graphic EQ. But for precision adjustments, something like a Behringer DCX2496 or DEQ2496 is ideal.

For a nice 10 band EQ, the Pioneer GR-777 is a great choice. It was a sort of high end EQ in the mid 90s', but is now discontinued. It was about $500-$600 when new($800-$1100 equal, in reference to inflation today). They show up on eBay for like $100-$150 depending on condition.

-Chris

 

[greggp2]

Thanks for the responses Seth and Wmax. My biggest concern is that even with an EQ, I'm not sure my ear is good enough to make the adjustments manually. I've heard much about the Behringer unit and it seems like a good EQ, but I'm also concerned about the ease in adjustments.

I recently upgraded my electronics and am just waiting on my new Amp from Outlaw. My Onkyo 886 has Audessey Pro calibration. Is this a possible EQ solution I can utilize? I really like the looks of the B&W but have always felt that they didn't quiet reproduce the depth and warmth that I hear about with reviews of other speakers...

 

[adwilk]

I really like the looks of the B&W but have always felt that they didn't quiet reproduce the depth and warmth that I hear about with reviews of other speakers...

You absolutely cannot compare what you are hearing from your speakers with what a few reviewers claim to hear from others.

 

[Drifter]

I think in this case, you just need to have faith that the B&W's are superior and stop pickig nits. No one model or brand is going to do it all for everyone all the time. I run 804's with HTM1 and I have never looked back. The 804's keep getting better and better.

I have come to the conclusion that it IS possible to go crazy worrying over which ding-dong has more ding than dong.

 

[WmAx]

Thanks for the responses Seth and Wmax. My biggest concern is that even with an EQ, I'm not sure my ear is good enough to make the adjustments manually. I've heard much about the Behringer unit and it seems like a good EQ, but I'm also concerned about the ease in adjustments.

I recently upgraded my electronics and am just waiting on my new Amp from Outlaw. My Onkyo 886 has Audessey Pro calibration. Is this a possible EQ solution I can utilize? I really like the looks of the B&W but have always felt that they didn't quiet reproduce the depth and warmth that I hear about with reviews of other speakers...

You are in luck, because there are only two adjustments that make the biggest difference(s) on a speaker that is already extremely nuetral. Yes, really.

The Behringers make this super easy using shelf filters. This type of filters effects a wide and gradual transition to a band of frequencies over or under a specified point.

First is to effect a low-shelving filter, 6db/octave rate setting. Centered at about 500Hz for the 802N. This adjusts baffle step compensation ideally for your room(every position/room requires a different setting), and this effects realism/natural balance hugely. Adjust it + or - dB until you find the most natural 'weight' to vocals, etc.

Second is to effect a high-shelving filter, 6db/octave rate setting. Centered at 3500Hz. Adjust - dB until the treble sounds natural. Generally, neutral speakers like the 802N have a treble balance that is 'hot' compared to what listeners find to sound natural.

These two filters will make all the difference in the world, and when you find the right dB setting for each, you will have no problems with 'warmth, etc.'.

-Chris

 

[3db]

Thanks for the responses Seth and Wmax. My biggest concern is that even with an EQ, I'm not sure my ear is good enough to make the adjustments manually. I've heard much about the Behringer unit and it seems like a good EQ, but I'm also concerned about the ease in adjustments.

I recently upgraded my electronics and am just waiting on my new Amp from Outlaw. My Onkyo 886 has Audessey Pro calibration. Is this a possible EQ solution I can utilize? I really like the looks of the B&W but have always felt that they didn't quiet reproduce the depth and warmth that I hear about with reviews of other speakers...

WHy not just audition for yourself and pick the ones you like the best? There is no right or wrong because you are the one enjoying which ever you pick out. Speaker selection is very subjective.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

I would likely keep the B&W's. If I remember correctly, your room is a difficult set up so that may be the biggest constraint in getting good sound.

Try the DCX, if you don't like it, return it.

 

[greggp2]

I would likely keep the B&W's. If I remember correctly, your room is a difficult set up so that may be the biggest constraint in getting good sound.

Try the DCX, if you don't like it, return it.

My Processor warns of setting up anything in between it and the Amp... You really think that's a good idea?

This is from the manual written by Outlaw...

"Additionally, some systems may have outboard subwoofer equalization equipment (such as a Behringer EQ or Velodyne SMS-1) connected between the PR-SC886 and the subwoofer. The signal processing performed by these units can produce a signal delay, and the Audyssey measurements will perceive that delay as a greater distance from the listening position. As a result, these systems will cause the measured subwoofer distances to not match the actual speaker placement. We recommend retaining the Audyssey-measured distances, as they include delays for both physical distance and for signal processing. For subwoofers with equalization built in, we also recommend disabling that equalization and using Audyssey alone; in most cases Audyssey will provide superior results."

My Pre-Pro has Pro Audyssey capability. I was thinking perhaps to get someone in here with their fancy laptop equipment and having them adjust my eq's with the built in Audyssey software...

 

[bandphan]

My Processor warns of setting up anything in between it and the Amp... You really think that's a good idea?

This is from the manual written by Outlaw...

"Additionally, some systems may have outboard subwoofer equalization equipment (such as a Behringer EQ or Velodyne SMS-1) connected between the PR-SC886 and the subwoofer. The signal processing performed by these units can produce a signal delay, and the Audyssey measurements will perceive that delay as a greater distance from the listening position. As a result, these systems will cause the measured subwoofer distances to not match the actual speaker placement. We recommend retaining the Audyssey-measured distances, as they include delays for both physical distance and for signal processing. For subwoofers with equalization built in, we also recommend disabling that equalization and using Audyssey alone; in most cases Audyssey will provide superior results."

My Pre-Pro has Pro Audyssey capability. I was thinking perhaps to get someone in here with their fancy laptop equipment and having them adjust my eq's with the built in Audyssey software...

Run Audyssey first, then insert the DCX, and there are some comments from Gene regarding just this. I would hesitate in using the DCX Maybe a round or two at WHCC would convince me to come and help

 

[greggp2]

do you live close by? You must if you know about WHCC. I'm also debating sending back the Onkyo 886 and maybe biting the bullet and getting the Anthem D2v...

 

[greggp2]

By the way, I love the Pelosi quote!!!

 

[bandphan]

do you live close by? You must if you know about WHCC. I'm also debating sending back the Onkyo 886 and maybe biting the bullet and getting the Anthem D2v...

Deerfield........ Ex and Daughter in Weston

 

[KEW]

My Processor warns of setting up anything in between it and the Amp... You really think that's a good idea?

This is from the manual written by Outlaw...

"Additionally, some systems may have outboard subwoofer equalization equipment (such as a Behringer EQ or Velodyne SMS-1) connected between the PR-SC886 and the subwoofer. The signal processing performed by these units can produce a signal delay, and the Audyssey measurements will perceive that delay as a greater distance from the listening position. As a result, these systems will cause the measured subwoofer distances to not match the actual speaker placement. We recommend retaining the Audyssey-measured distances, as they include delays for both physical distance and for signal processing. For subwoofers with equalization built in, we also recommend disabling that equalization and using Audyssey alone; in most cases Audyssey will provide superior results."

This is not warning you against setting up one of these units, It is just explaining that Audyssey will compensate for the processing delay so you should use the "distance" settings provided by Audyssey rather than the actual physical distance. No problem, just let Audyssey handle it.

In the case of subwoofers with built in EQ, they are talking about where there is a PEQ built into the amp which allows you to select a frequency band and cut or increase the SPL at that frequency.
They are not talking about the case where your sub may have some EQ hardwired inside the amp (as most sealed subs do). Look at the top three rotary knobs and switch on this unit as an example of a sub with built in EQ:

 

[greggp2]

Bandphan we are practically neighbors then, which is great, considering it seems that there aren't many Audiophiles around anymore. What type of setup are you running?

 

[WmAx]

As the other guy pointed out, it's no problem to use the DCX. The DCX needs to be connected to your main pre-outs - then the DCX must feed your main speaker(802N) amplifier and your sub inputs. Then the DCX can be used to customize the sound as you need to your exact preferences. Use two filtes in the DCX to start: (1) low shelving EQ, set at 6db/octave, Frequency=600Hz. Gain= +3dB to start and adjust a dB or two up or down until vocals, piano, etc. have the most natural 'weight'. This is baffle step compensation; and it changes for every room and position ; with the DCX and this filter, it's easy to get it perfect. (2) high shelving EQ, set at 6db/octave, Frequency= 3.5kHz. Gain = 0dB. Adjust downward in negative dB until the treble sounds realistic. This is the curve found by perceptual science researchers to be critical to percieved naturalness. It will be between -2 to -6dB, depending on room, speakers, acoustics, distance, etc..

Then there is using the DCX as the crossover instead of using the built in crossover in the sub. You'll want to set the 802N with a 4th order rate, 70Hz. If you have two subs; one for each side of room. Go with 45Hz if you only have one sub. Two subs will be better for this application in all ways.

My Processor warns of setting up anything in between it and the Amp... You really think that's a good idea?

This is from the manual written by Outlaw...

"Additionally, some systems may have outboard subwoofer equalization equipment (such as a Behringer EQ or Velodyne SMS-1) connected between the PR-SC886 and the subwoofer. The signal processing performed by these units can produce a signal delay, and the Audyssey measurements will perceive that delay as a greater distance from the listening position. As a result, these systems will cause the measured subwoofer distances to not match the actual speaker placement. We recommend retaining the Audyssey-measured distances, as they include delays for both physical distance and for signal processing. For subwoofers with equalization built in, we also recommend disabling that equalization and using Audyssey alone; in most cases Audyssey will provide superior results."

My Pre-Pro has Pro Audyssey capability. I was thinking perhaps to get someone in here with their fancy laptop equipment and having them adjust my eq's with the built in Audyssey software...

 

[TjMV3]

A properly set up pair of 802s should be very accurate, more so than anything that Sonus Faber offers to my knowledge.....

Seems to me the OP is not really concerned with the most "accurate " speaker. What ever that's supposed to mean for the B&W 802.

A good equalizer paired with your 802s could render the same results and cost you significantly less money. Given that they 802s are very linear you can virtually get any sound you want out of them with an EQ.

I'm not entirely convinced that's an accurate comment on the 802.

Some how, I doubt the 802 will sound like the Sonus Faber Cremonas; just like that.

 

[TjMV3]

The 802N is a far better speaker. Of course the 802 does not sound perfect out of the box. It's designed as a neutral monitor, and is very popular in the world's best sound studios as a result. -Chris

You know, I've heard a lot of B&W people say that. But something odd occurs to me.

For quite some time, the state of the recording industry has been at an all time low. Recordings themseleves are probably at their most horrendous, than, it has been in a long time. Despite all the Hi-Rez capabilities.

Trying to find high quality recordings that are lisentable and pleasurable; is like trying to find the Chicago Cubs a Championship.

If the B&W 802 is representative of this, I'm having a difficult time considering that a feather in B&W's cap, lol.

It reminds me of people who talk about " Legendary " Abbey Roads Studios and are in awe of it's mythical history.

Some how a lot of people seem to forget that an awful amount of history's god-awful recordings, came from Abbey Studios. Oh that's right, the Beatles recorded there.

Unfortunately, the Beatles recordings are often from downright terrible ...to mediocre. With an occasional average recording....here and there (pun intended).

So remind again.....Where does the "Legend" fit in?

 

[TjMV3]

I think in this case, you just need to have faith that the B&W's are superior and stop pickig nits. No one model or brand is going to do it all for everyone all the time. I run 804's with HTM1 and I have never looked back. The 804's keep getting better and better.

I have come to the conclusion that it IS possible to go crazy worrying over which ding-dong has more ding than dong.

Or he can go about auditioning Vienna Acoustics speakers or any other speaker brand he desires.

There's absolutely no reason whatsoever for him to "just have faith that the B&W 's are superior" . In fact, that's laughable.

There are better options for him out there. In fact, the Salk Songtowers are even a better option for him. A much easier speaker to EQ for warmth and depth. And at a very reasonable price (plus if he desires, custom finishes..to his preference).

greggp2, go audition several speaker brands/models. Don't get sucked into this whole "B&W is so superior " nonsense.

Vienna Acoustics is known for their warmth. Try to audition the Beethoven Baby Grand, for starters. Look into the Salk Audio Songtowers. Look inot other speaker brands and models.

There's no reason whatsoever for you to be locked into B&W or any brand.

Let your ears decide. Not some looney " just accept the faith of B&W superiority" kool-aid