B&W Nautilus vs Sonus Faber Cremonas

[lsiberian]

As someone pointed out, the Primus 162 uses a different mid/bass driver than the more expensive 362 (which has 2 bass drivers and a 4-inch mid) and this largely explains the differences in the measurements. Other than the high Q resonance at 750 Hz, which looks worse than it sounds, its performance is quite decent, although not quite as good as the 362.

This is the first time I've seen the Sound Stage measurements of the 162, and shape of the resonance at 750 Hz looks different than in my measurements. This is either due to a manufacturing variance or something else. Otherwise, the measurements look quite similar to ours except below 100 Hz.

I recently discovered from a Sound Stage review of the Revel Ultima Salon 2 - that the NRC anechoic chamber was never calibrated below 100 Hz when they rebuilt it after I left NRC in 1993. When I worked there, it was accurately calibrated to 20-30 Hz by measuring speakers on a 10 m tower and using that as a reference for correcting loudspeaker/room errors from standing waves in the chamber. So I'm sad to say that below 100 Hz, the NRC measurements are no longer as accurate as they once were.

If I may speak from experience the 3-way sort of style in the Infinity speakers is certainly on par with most speakers I've heard especially after proper placement. I just much prefer the metal grills and look of the Beta's over the Primus line. Finding Beta 40s in good condition proved an almost impossible task. How does the Primus line compare to the older Beta line.

 

[tonmeister]

Well that's odd. Why would NRC not strive to make the newer chamber at least equal to the old?

Good question. Perhaps because all of the loudspeaker scientists have left? As of last June, the Acoustics and Signal Processing Group in which we worked at the NRC, officially closed. I was told the anechoic chamber can still be rented out for measurements, but most of the original scientists in the Acoustics group have left to work in industry, or have retired or passed away. The remaining 1-2 original scientists have transferred to a different division.

For me, it marked the end of an important era of acoustics and loudspeaker research in Canada that benefited many Canadian companies like Paradigm, Energy/Mirage (now part of Klipsch ), Axiom, PSB, Angstrom,etc, and loudspeaker companies outside Canada who read and took advantage of the published research.

 

[Nuance AH]

That's really a shame. I had no idea they no longer had a group of loudspeaker scientists. I assume Paradigm now has their own chamber, or perhaps still rents out the NRC one.

 

[tonmeister]

That's really a shame. I had no idea they no longer had a group of loudspeaker scientists. I assume Paradigm now has their own chamber, or perhaps still rents out the NRC one.

Yes, Paradigm has had their own chamber since the early 90's, and Axiom has their own now too. Other than Sound Stage, and perhaps PSB, I don't think the NRC gets much business from the loudspeaker industry anymore.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Could be...on another note, got permission to post Linwitz challenge

http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/20100313.htm

I'm very curious about what the findings are/will be, regarding the Orions. I've been very intrigued by the design ever since I first read about it in "The Audio Critic". If they're half as good as Mr. Aczel claims, they will become my official "dream speakers".

 

[AJinFLA]

David Clark is currently running some sort of listening experiment in Detroit on the Orions

Excellent. Didn't know about that one by David, thanks. I guess he got tired of treating Audiophiles for their disorders involving amplifiers (including ones with blue lights ) and moved on to real issues. Is JJ actively involved? I guess I could ask him. Not so sure about their setup....did they ask you to borrow the Harman shuffler room?

to prove whether or not they are the "perfect" loudspeaker. So far, it seems they can't seem to design an experiment prove that they are perfect.

That's a rather foolish thing to attempt to "prove", but hey...
I do like the idea of blind testing them vs real instruments and typical box loudspeakers. I wonder if Earl will send a pair of his Abbeys? After the statistical draw with a pair of Gradient Revolutions...in his own home, he may not .
Harman sending anything?

cheers,

AJ

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Try a controlled listening test next time.

That's impossible at the stores.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well that's odd. Why would NRC not strive to make the newer chamber at least equal to the old?

You just can't find good help these days.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm very curious about what the findings are/will be, regarding the Orions. I've been very intrigued by the design ever since I first read about it in "The Audio Critic". If they're half as good as Mr. Aczel claims, they will become my official "dream speakers".

I've read and followed that as well.

Some things that puzzle me, which isn't hard to do:

1) So there's no grille?

2) They use the ATI AT6012 amp (60 watts x 12 ch). By Audioholics standards that's just not **enough**.

3) A Pair of Orions requires 8 Channels of Amps?
So each speaker is QUAD-AMPED!!!

4) Are there matching CENTER speaker & Surround Speakers?

 

[WmAx]

You're telling me that a 100 dollar speaker(Fry's occasionally insane sale) is as good as an 8k one. Don't get me wrong I love Infinity products, but I'm having a hard time buying this. I've always thought Wmax was a little overboard on the bracing, but I'm still having a hard time believing this.

Lisberian. Speaker M is unidentified. There are speakers that cost very high dollars and have very poor performance, build quality, etcc. Just look at some Zu brand speakers as an example.; the Zu Druid:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/zucable_druid/

A $3600 USD/pair speaker system. There are no inherent qualities that would allow mods, simple or even moderate, to bring this speaker up to a level of performance befitting the price. A Primus 362 at 1/7th the price shall easily be able to exceed it's performance in stock form, and has FAR more potential to boot.

When you hear only prices thrown around, such as the $8k 'M', I think you automatically are thinking of a B&W loudspeaker or other similar company; not companies like Zu or similar.

-Chris

 

[AJinFLA]

I've read and followed that as well.
Some things that puzzle me, which isn't hard to do:
1) So there's no grille?

There can be http://www.linkwitzlab.com/images/photos/livg9-small2.jpg

2) They use the ATI AT6012 amp (60 watts x 12 ch). By Audioholics standards that's just not **enough**.

Linkwitz, like the EE's who designed the JBL LSR's, are quite aware of the required voltages for the specific drivers bandpass.

3) A Pair of Orions requires 8 Channels of Amps?
So each speaker is QUAD-AMPED!!!

Hence their unpopularity or rejection amongst the audiophile jewelry crowd

4) Are there matching CENTER speaker & Surround Speakers?

There is, but not officially, so more of a 2ch, than HT.....sort of like what Greg is(was) looking for.

cheers

AJ

 

[Nuance AH]

You just can't find good help these days.

Thanks for the link, Randy. Good stuff, but I can't wait till the results are given. Judging by the pictures, had I participated I would have easily been the youngest one there, possibly earning the nickname "sport" or "young man."

Where's all the mid 20's to mid 30's audiophiles?

 

[tonmeister]

I've read and followed that as well.

Some things that puzzle me, which isn't hard to do:


4) Are there matching CENTER speaker & Surround Speakers?

Unfortunately, Siegfried for whom I have a lot of respect, is still very much stuck in the dark ages of stereo reproduction.

He has tried to convince me and others to do more research in the perception of stereo reproduction, as noted in his review of of Floyd Toole's book:

I quote him" ..My only regret is that the potential of 2-channel playback in doing so has not been fully explored. "

I think it is well-established scientifically that the potential of 2-channel audio is very limited (in terms of spatial envelopment, apparent source width, localization, wide sweet spot, dialog intelligibility, better timbre from discrete sources versus phantom images which cause cross-talk cancellation that shifts with head movement) when compared to multichannel.

Personally, I think such research effort is better focussed on improving multichannel audio recording/reproduction. Stereo is dead. Multichannel is the future. Let's move on.

 

[randyb]

As someone pointed out, the Primus 162 uses a different mid/bass driver than the more expensive 362 (which has 2 bass drivers and a 4-inch mid) and this largely explains the differences in the measurements. Other than the high Q resonance at 750 Hz, which looks worse than it sounds, its performance is quite decent, although not quite as good as the 362.

This is the first time I've seen the Sound Stage measurements of the 162, and shape of the resonance at 750 Hz looks different than in my measurements. This is either due to a manufacturing variance or something else. Otherwise, the measurements look quite similar to ours except below 100 Hz.

I recently discovered from a Sound Stage review of the Revel Ultima Salon 2 - that the NRC anechoic chamber was never calibrated below 100 Hz when they rebuilt it after I left NRC in 1993. When I worked there, it was accurately calibrated to 20-30 Hz by measuring speakers on a 10 m tower and using that as a reference for correcting loudspeaker/room errors from standing waves in the chamber. So I'm sad to say that below 100 Hz, the NRC measurements are no longer as accurate as they once were.

Thank you very much!

 

[randyb]

Thanks for the link, Randy. Good stuff, but I can't wait till the results are given. Judging by the pictures, had I participated I would have easily been the youngest one there, possibly earning the nickname "sport" or "young man."

Where's all the mid 20's to mid 30's audiophiles?

That's a very good question. I am not sure how many younger people are members of the Boston Audio Club which I think is one of the oldest in the country. I am sure anyone in the Detroit area that is younger would be welcome to join their club and the Boston club is a nice one for everyone in the country. They do some nice work.

 

[randyb]

Excellent. Didn't know about that one by David, thanks. I guess he got tired of treating Audiophiles for their disorders involving amplifiers (including ones with blue lights ) and moved on to real issues. Is JJ actively involved? I guess I could ask him. Not so sure about their setup....did they ask you to borrow the Harman shuffler room?


That's a rather foolish thing to attempt to "prove", but hey...
I do like the idea of blind testing them vs real instruments and typical box loudspeakers. I wonder if Earl will send a pair of his Abbeys? After the statistical draw with a pair of Gradient Revolutions...in his own home, he may not .
Harman sending anything?

cheers,

AJ

I am curious about the Gradient Revolution "Earl" challenge. I have been to his house and am curious what kind of "statistics" were used and testing methods. Was it done in his theater room....was it the Abbeys or Summas? How much do Gradient Revolutions cost? Since this off topic, fine to PM me.

 

[Mika75]

I just got some pictures from that as I am a member of that club (from afar). I am not sure the Orion is the "perfect" speaker although I have not heard the results of the listening test. There were I think 33 people that reviewed blind the Orions against a Behringer B2031A set-up. Basically the Detroit audio club (SMWTMS) took up the challenge given at AES by Mr. Linkwitz.

I have asked for permission to link to the pictures of the event.

So any news on the outcome

 

[AJinFLA]

I quote him" ..My only regret is that the potential of 2-channel playback in doing so has not been fully explored. "
I think it is well-established scientifically that the potential of 2-channel audio is very limited (in terms of spatial envelopment, apparent source width, localization, wide sweet spot, dialog intelligibility, better timbre from discrete sources versus phantom images which cause cross-talk cancellation that shifts with head movement) when compared to multichannel.

Out of curiosity, have heard his 2ch Orion++ setup?

Stereo is dead. Multichannel is the future. Let's move on.

What percentage of your music library is surround?
Out of my 1000+ collection, I have maybe 20 surround SACD and DVD-A, most of which are "special effects" rather than any form of "realism".
What would you suggest a Dark Age guy like me do with those 1000 stereo recordings on my HD?

cheers,

AJ

p.s. btw, you do know SL has dabbled a bit with surround, using Harmans Logic7 no less?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Unfortunately, Siegfried for whom I have a lot of respect, is still very much stuck in the dark ages of stereo reproduction.

He has tried to convince me and others to do more research in the perception of stereo reproduction, as noted in his review of of Floyd Toole's book:

I quote him" ..My only regret is that the potential of 2-channel playback in doing so has not been fully explored. "

I think it is well-established scientifically that the potential of 2-channel audio is very limited (in terms of spatial envelopment, apparent source width, localization, wide sweet spot, dialog intelligibility, better timbre from discrete sources versus phantom images which cause cross-talk cancellation that shifts with head movement) when compared to multichannel.

Personally, I think such research effort is better focussed on improving multichannel audio recording/reproduction. Stereo is dead. Multichannel is the future. Let's move on.

From a technical standpoint, I don't doubt that you are right. However, I don't believe we can declare stereo to be "dead" until:

a) multi-channel recordings, i.e. sacd and/or dvd-audio, become the default recording media in place of 2-channel CD, rather than expensive niche formats.

b) technology is developed to ease integration of several speakers into the typical music listening room, as opposed to the typical HT setup in a family room. Completely wireless, high quality, reasonably priced in-walls anyone?

Even then, rooms need to be designed from the outset, prior to construction, with the incorporation of multi-channel audio in mind. The number of existing homes designed in such a manner are minute. Even homes under construction or in the planning stages typically give short shrift to such things. Few people have their homes custom-designed, so end up with a house that usually won't allow easy integration of multi-channel systems for music listening. 2-channel systems take up some space, while 5.1/7.1 channel systems take up a lot of space.

I would love to have a multi-channel setup in my living room, just for music. But, the layout will not permit it. I don't want to have to go down to the basement family room to listen to music on my HT. So, in my living room, it's stereo for the foreseeable future. I doubt my situation is atypical.

Until such issues are resolved, the rumours of stereo's death are greatly exagerated.

 

[randyb]

So any news on the outcome

None that I have heard yet.