B&W 705: Disappointing

[jaxvon]

I had some extra time to burn after work today so I decided to stop by the local B&W dealer. I plopped down for only about 25 minutes (the store was closing in at 5:30, I got there at 5). For reference, I took my usual listening material, which is basically Steely Dan/Donald Fagen. The guy set up them up running full range. I elected to not run them with the sub, so as to just get a feel for the speakers themselves. Cabling was some pretty Audioquest garden hose with batteries

First up was the title track off The Nightfly. I was immediately astounded by the image these things threw. This was really the most impressive thing about the speakers. The sounstaging and imaging was very big for the size of the speaker. Fagen was right in front of me, sitting as his Rhodes. The speakers started to disappear into the room and push the music toward me. But I said I was disappointed, didn't I? Well, yes. The highs seemed a little bit bright. The room did have some acoustical panels and some absorbing stuff in it, as well as a bookshelf to the right of the setup. There was nothing at the primary reflection points, and I think this might've had something to do with it. Still, compared to my usual listening tool (Sony MDR-7506 headphones, EQ'd according to WmAx's specs for flat response), the 705's seemed bright. I might also attribute this to the fact that I do a lot of listening in my car, which has rolled off highs.

The 705s sounded very nice at moderate levels, barring the slightly bright character. As I cranked it up though, to levels I would normally listen at, the midrange started to sound terrible. It sounded like everything got mushed together. Save for Fagen's voice coming out of the space behind the equipment stack in front of me, all the guitars, pianos, etc. sounded like they had been stuffed into a small box and were not eminating from the speaker in any cohesive way. This was very disappointing. For a speaker like the 705 with that famous yellow Kevlar driver, I would think the midrange would be more open.

Next up was The Goodbye Look off the same album, probably my favorite track. The cymbals at the beginning were very much localized to the tweeter in the right speaker, but after the rest of the band came in, the soundstage spread out and was very good sounding. I didn't notice the brightness as much on this track, I was probably used to it by now. The Goodbye Look sounded excellent. The marimba, the rhodes, Fagen's voice, all sounded incredible. My wallet started to get warm in my pocket. I was particularly impressed with the 705's ability to reproduce the low bass drum "thud" that is present on the chorus underneath "I believe I just got the goodbye look". I was thinking that this would be absent and that I'd have to turn on the sub to get the sound.

Then came Hey Nineteen off the Gaucho album. Pain. Pain and suffering. Part of my pain and suffering was due to the fact that I had the system cranked for The Nightfly, which is mastered at a much lower level than Gaucho. So anyway, as the track started, I'm pretty sure my ears started to bleed. The highs were that sharp. I, of course, being the lazy bastard that I am didn't turn it down, but was still kind of cringing from the sibilance. Now, I realize that the drums are programmed on this album, but this is the only setup I've heard Hey Nineteen on that sounded so rediculously overpowering on the cymbals. The harmonized vocals on "The Cuervo Gold..." sounded very nice, and opened up into a wide soundstage, but that was the only good thing that happened on this track. The midrange in general still sounded compressed and muffled. The wallet was ice cold after this experience.

The last track of my short listening session was Reelin' in the Years off the live album Alive in America. The live presence was there, as was the soundstage, but the midrange thing was still happening too. I was most unimpressed with this. I kept wating for something to happen, for a veil to lift, and the midrange to explode into the room and all of my hopes and dreams would be fulfilled (well not quite, but you get where I'm going with this).

I truly and honestly wanted to like the 705s, but alas, I could not. The insane brightness experienced on a well-recorded album, coupled with the lack of clarity in the midrange just turned me off completely. I'd like to go back soon and listen with the sub hooked up and crossoved over around 80Hz. I have a sneaking suspicion that doing this would help open up the midrange. But it still wouldn't clear up the brightness issue. B&W was on my list of speakers to listen to so that when I get upgraditis (as well as the budget), I can make a decision more easily.

Every time I go out and listen, it's abundantly clear why the mantra when making speaker selections is always "Go Listen!". I'd like to hear from others around here that have listened to the 705s and what they thought.

 

[miklorsmith]

I heard those

My buddy demo'd some in-house and we had a two-hour sesh with them. He's got mellow Arcam gear, NOT known for harshness.

If you asked me before reading your review to describe these in one word, "bright" would have been it. As in - boring into your skull bright. Klipsch does this to me too. A lot of people must like it because they're a huge, successful company. If I had to live with these though, I wouldn't be an audiohead.

 

[jaxvon]

Boring into your skull...yes indeed.

I think that I have extra sensitive hearing at higher frequencies or something. Or perhaps I just don't like metal tweeters. Every supposedly good metal tweeter I've heard (including studio monitors) sound harsh and blaring, very unnatural. Good thing I've got some soft domes waiting for me to set up.

 

[8118]

Jaxvon, have u tried the 804 or 803S/D?

I am doing some search for my fronts, I have a pair of 15 years old pionner fronts, they still doing good, but I would like to have some new speakers couple with my new receiver.

btw, regarding the megapan, thanks for the info, how freq u need to replace (or service??) the ribbon, how much is cost? anyway, i think i took it off from my list..

B&W 800 series is always on top of my list, but i havent have time and chance to listen to them. If you have the time and chance, try to experience them and post your review.... your advice is always highly appreciated.....

 

[jaxvon]

Thanks for the compliment! I plan on going back to the dealer when I have some actual time on my hands and giving the 705s a second chance when mated with a sub. But, I'll give the 803Ds a shot. Maybe that Diamond tweeter will be magical...

Anyway, I'll PM you on the magnepan replacement thing. I don't know offhand, but I was looking for something to do on the internet, so research it is.

Do you have any preferences on source material? I have access to a lot of jazz and classic rock.

 

[MacManNM]

Boring into your skull...yes indeed.

I think that I have extra sensitive hearing at higher frequencies or something. Or perhaps I just don't like metal tweeters. Every supposedly good metal tweeter I've heard (including studio monitors) sound harsh and blaring, very unnatural. Good thing I've got some soft domes waiting for me to set up.

They tend to resonate. That's why they all sound harsh.

 

[Takeereasy]

This really does serve to showcase peoples taste differences. I love the aluminum tweets in my PSBs. The only B & W's I've ever heard that I didn't think were overrated didn't use metal tweets and they absolutely dropped my jaw they were so good. I do think Klipsch is too bright but they aren't drilling into my head either, and I've never seen a really nice Klipsch setup so I can't be totally fair. Nice review Jaxvon. On a side note not listening to those Bic 62s yet is killing me. I've had to push back the HSU/Bic demo for a couple of weeks due to unforseen household expenditures like my anniversary (that I rememberd 2 days before it happened).

 

[Swerd]

This really does serve to showcase peoples taste differences. I love the aluminum tweets in my PSBs. The only B & W's I've ever heard that I didn't think were overrated didn't use metal tweets and they absolutely dropped my jaw they were so good.

Nice review Jaxvon.

Yes, nice review. The single best tool to use for selecting speakers is knowing how to listen. I think you got that part down. I also think that now you know you dislike shrill sounding speakers. You are not the first to say that about B&W. Move on to something else and keep listening.

Some others here (not Takeereasy) have repeated the dogma that aluminum tweeters sound harsh. Just because they are bright and shiny looking doesn't mean they must sound that way. I've heard both aluminum and silk tweeters sound shrill in speakers, and the opposite as well. It's really all in the crossover. How the woofer and tweeter are blended together by the crossover is usually what makes for or avoids shrillness. Sometimes it can easily be adjusted by adding extra resistors for the tweeter circuit to lower its output to a similar level to the woofer. Sometimes it is really the woofer that causes the shrillness.

I looked up the B&W 705s that you listened to and was surprised to see that the crossover point was at 3700 Hz. That is unusually high for what appears to be either a 5.25" or 6.5" woofer. More typical are crossovers somewhere between 2000 to 3000 Hz. I don't know what the woofer's high frequency response is at and above 3700 Hz (and we're not likely to find out from B & W) but some speakers that size have some nasty breakup peaks in that range. That could explain the unusually bright or shrill sound you described.

I'm not really trying to badmouth B & W here, but I am going to suggest that, considering their high price, you ought to look into DIY speaker building. You can easily make speakers that are the equivalent of those that retail for 3 to 5 times as much. If you don't do woodworking, you can buy nice premade cabinets and still save a lot of money. I have heard and made several DIY designs of 2-ways that cost $300 to $400 a pair that are superior to commercial designs that sell for $1000 to $1500 a pair. Until 3 years ago, I never considered building my own and now I would never buy a commercially built speaker.

 

[furrycute]

When you push bookshelf speakers too hard, they will sound strained and distorted. That was the reason why I sold my bookshelf speakers and got a pair of floorstanders. Larger speakers hold up much better when you push up the volume.

Cost wise, a pair of bookshelf speakers plus a pair of stands almost equal the price of a pair of small floorstanders. Why don't you try a couple of B&W's 800 series floorstanders and see if you like them. I am drooling after a pair of the flagship Nautilus.

Have you tried Totem's Manni 2? That bookshelf model has a unique dual woofer design that's supposed to give you amazing bass response inside a bookshelf enclosure.

 

[Privateer]

What equipment were the 705's hooked up to?

 

[jaxvon]

Thanks guys.

Privateer...think for second...What equipment is B&W ALWAYS hooked up to? Rotel.

Just for reference though, the setup was an RC-1072 CD player, an RC-1070 preamp, and a RC-1090 amp. They weren't being played with garbage.

I honestly did this listening session just for the heck of it. I wanted to get out and listen to know what's out there. I can't afford the 705s, and I already bought the speakers that I'm going to put into my poor college student HT, those being 2 pairs of DV62SIBs...which are still in their boxes. But since they are supposedly bright out of the box, I guess they'll have to get the crossovers modded ASAP.

I plan on going back to the dealer to listen to the 705s again (with a sub, to see if the midrange clears up), and then sit down with some Diamonds. Maybe the diamond tweeter won't have the resonance issues (since it's breakup is at like 100kHz). Plus, I'm gonna do a favor for a member here and report my findings.

 

[cornelius]

I've demo'd 705's and other B&Ws with the same impressions. My local dealer always matches up the B&W speakers with McIntosh or Classe gear to take the edge off.

 

[indcrimdefense]

I listened to several sets of B&W speakers last weekend when shopping for components. The B&W 703 w/ rotel 1072 & interegrated stereo amp had a clean, sterile sound, very clear but lacked body. Listened to 803 or 804 on lexicon system, and was generally impressed, but there was also a sub playing so difficult to evaluate the speakers alone. Also heard the 803 or 804 on McIntosh, Classe & Cary Audio equipment and was impressed. Very precise sound, clear differences in high/mid/low, & great vocals. Previously I've also heard the CM4 or CM6 w/ rotel 1098 pre/pro & Cary Audio Cinema 7 amp and was impressed. Would not describe any of them as bright, but I have not listened to any of their bookshelf speakers, only floorstanding speakers.

I have Klipsch speakers all around, and they can run bright depending on what components are used. If cost were no option, I would have purchased other speakers, but the klipsch were the best I heard at their respective price points. Also looked at paradigm, definitive technology, baby martin logan, and several others which must not have much of an impression since I can't recall. I like a big, full sound, and broad soundstage, and this is what my speakers provide. Have been very happy with them, and after listening to B&W all afternoon last weekend, was not disappointed when I came home & listened to my system.

 

[furrycute]

Have you had a chance to audition the 802 or the 801, or the 800 models? I am thinking about picking up one of those.

 

[jaxvon]

Like I posted before, I plan on going back to the dealer to check out some other stuff, just for reference. I really do want to see if they Diamond is as good as they claim. I'm not sure if they have the 800s, but I know they have the 803s and the 801s. BTW...those 801s are frickin' giant. Those are room dominators for sure. I think I'd rather have the 803s and a good sub, for the fact that they are nice and skinny.

 

[kay]

Would be interesting to hear your impressions of the 800s, and potentially the 600s. Someone I know, who is an avid fan of B&W, told me once he likes the 600 much better than the 700 series, and that he'd rather jump from 600 straight to 800, which are far superior.

Me, I've only heard the 600 series (603 S3) off a Denon 3805, and I loved the sound. Did not find them bright at all, very balanced and the imaging is simply amazing.

 

[Pat D]

Yes, nice review. The single best tool to use for selecting speakers is knowing how to listen. I think you got that part down. I also think that now you know you dislike shrill sounding speakers. You are not the first to say that about B&W. Move on to something else and keep listening.

Some others here (not Takeereasy) have repeated the dogma that aluminum tweeters sound harsh. Just because they are bright and shiny looking doesn't mean they must sound that way. I've heard both aluminum and silk tweeters sound shrill in speakers, and the opposite as well. It's really all in the crossover. How the woofer and tweeter are blended together by the crossover is usually what makes for or avoids shrillness. Sometimes it can easily be adjusted by adding extra resistors for the tweeter circuit to lower its output to a similar level to the woofer. Sometimes it is really the woofer that causes the shrillness.

I looked up the B&W 705s that you listened to and was surprised to see that the crossover point was at 3700 Hz. That is unusually high for what appears to be either a 5.25" or 6.5" woofer. More typical are crossovers somewhere between 2000 to 3000 Hz. I don't know what the woofer's high frequency response is at and above 3700 Hz (and we're not likely to find out from B & W) but some speakers that size have some nasty breakup peaks in that range. That could explain the unusually bright or shrill sound you described.

I'm not really trying to badmouth B & W here, but I am going to suggest that, considering their high price, you ought to look into DIY speaker building. You can easily make speakers that are the equivalent of those that retail for 3 to 5 times as much. If you don't do woodworking, you can buy nice premade cabinets and still save a lot of money. I have heard and made several DIY designs of 2-ways that cost $300 to $400 a pair that are superior to commercial designs that sell for $1000 to $1500 a pair. Until 3 years ago, I never considered building my own and now I would never buy a commercially built speaker.

Well, you can check the measurements in Figure 4 in the Stereophile review to see how the drivers match up. In any case, the 705 has very good dispersion and is quite flat in response, very smooth, as can be seen from Figures 5, 6, and 7. And it does sound very smooth, although the balance is perhaps a bit brighter than I would prefer. I found it very easy to listen to. I would suggest using it with a subwoofer, however, although the bass response is not all that bad, and it should be easy to integrate with a sub.

 

[WmAx]

Well, you can check the measurements in Figure 4 in the Stereophile review to see how the drivers match up. In any case, the 705 has very good dispersion and is quite flat in response, very smooth, as can be seen from Figures 5, 6, and 7. And it does sound very smooth, although the balance is perhaps a bit brighter than I would prefer. I found it very easy to listen to. I would suggest using it with a subwoofer, however, although the bass response is not all that bad, and it should be easy to integrate with a sub.

Indeed, the measured performance is superb for that speaker. Use that speaker with a device such as a Behringer DCX2496 and you can optimally integrate it with a subwoofer(even better, a pair of stereo subs), E.Q. bass modes, and modify the response curve with precision in order to achieve the specific balance/sound signature that is desired.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

Like I posted before, I plan on going back to the dealer to check out some other stuff, just for reference. I really do want to see if they Diamond is as good as they claim. I'm not sure if they have the 800s, but I know they have the 803s and the 801s. BTW...those 801s are frickin' giant. Those are room dominators for sure. I think I'd rather have the 803s and a good sub, for the fact that they are nice and skinny.

Did you ever get back to the dealer? If so, you referred to trying the speakers with subwoofers. If this was done, was this done properly[using active crossovers to direct proper bands to the bookshevles and subs]?

BTW, just for fun participation in this thread, I listened to the speaker in question at a dealer the other day. I had them set it up in various arrangements in the room, and tried it with the same audition material in each position, in order to minimize chance of a bad positioning/set-up. I will not offer much in the way of a subjective analysis, but I did not find the speaker to do anything obviously technically wrong. It seemed like an excellent blank slate[by this I mean using a DCX2496 to shape the sound signature and integrate subwoofers, as I would never be happy with the speaker in it's current state, with the upper midrange/treble being higher in amplitude relative to the rest of the bandwidth than I prefer, and useless[IMO] low frequency output -- both things easily fixed with a DCX and some subs ], just as the measurements indicated. I do prefer superior treble disperion[something approaching omnidirectional], however.

-Chris

 

[jaxvon]

Well, I did get back to the dealer, but I didn't get a chance to sit down with the 800 series B&W speakers. I ended up listening to some Phase Tech speakers (see my thoughts here). They saw through my budget lies and shuffled me to the Phase Techs. I must say though, I'm a big fan of soft dome tweeters now. I grew up on Magnepans (old MG IC's), and I think their sound is probably closer to a soft dome than a metal one.

I know that B&W isn't crap, but to my ears, they were far too bright (by which I mean elevated treble and upper mid frequencies).

Out of curiosity, did you find any problems in the midrange? I found that sometimes vocals sounded compressed. It wasn't so bad at lower volumes, but when I cranked it, things didn't sound quite right.