B&W 705: Disappointing

[toquemon]

Other speakers do sound warmer, but I would say that this is a colouration, which is strictly undesirable.

It's funny, but I always find B&W speakers colored in the highs. It's a matter of taste, not coloration.

 

[WmAx]

It's funny, but I always find B&W speakers colored in the highs. It's a matter of taste, not coloration.

Curiously, how did you determine if the coloration was due to the recording(s) or the speaker(s)?

In live A/B testing of live sources miced with measurement microphones, standing at the same position as the microphones, comparing the original source with the source live feed through headphones, it is curious that headphones that are typically labeled as 'bright' on commercial recordings sound nuetral(identical to source tonally). This leads me to suspect that most commercial recordings are tilted/emphasized in the high frequencies. This leads me to suspect that with a true flat response throughout the entire frequency band, that highs may sound 'emphasized' when using truly accurate speakers with such commercial recordings. In fact, I personally do not enjoy a flat response speaker on most commercial recordings -- I highly prefer a gradually tapered down treble response. This re-enforces my suspicion(s). Additionally(and at much greater weight than my suspicions), there is the research by various credited perceptual researchers that demonstrates a statistical [1]trend for listeners to find a somewhat tapered off high end as measured at the listening position to sound most 'flat'.

-Chris

[1]

 

[tbewick]

I also prefer warmer sounding speakers but I would say that B&W are very accurate, ignoring personal preference.

Looking at most B&W speakers, they have quite small driver units relative to what you can have. I don't think they do a 15 inch driver, there top of the range model uses a 250 mm driver. Perhaps this gives them tighter bass with less 'wallow', producing a less warm sound. They also typically have high treble extension, normally at least to 30 kHz, which might add to their higher perceived brightness.

Another thing about B&W speakers is that they are quite demanding of the amplifier, which might make them sound worse at high volumes on less good equipment.

 

[WmAx]

I don't think they do a 15 inch driver, there top of the range model uses a 250 mm driver.

The N801 uses a 15" bass driver. The top of the line Nautilus active speaker also has a 15" driver.

Perhaps this gives them tighter bass with less 'wallow', producing a less warm sound.

Woofer size has no inherant bearing on 'tighter' bass, unless one is referring to that lower frequencies don't sound as 'tight' as higher frequencies, then of course a smaller woofer that can not reproduce the lower frequencies might sound 'tighter' by that definition. But one would first ask what you mean by 'tighter' so far as measurable behaviour so that the relevant issues can be explained.

They also typically have high treble extension, normally at least to 30 kHz, which might add to their higher perceived brightness.

Ultra-sonic response is not proven to add anything that is audible.

-Chris

 

[Sheep]

Ultra-sonic response is not proven to add anything that is audible.

True, but if the speaker extends higher, its flatter in the audible range. So theres not much rolloff at 20Hz compared to a normal tweeter.

SheepStar

 

[WmAx]

True, but if the speaker extends higher, its flatter in the audible range. So theres not much rolloff at 20Hz compared to a normal tweeter.

SheepStar

A speaker does not need to remain flat out of the audible range to remain flat within the audible range. Besides, if you want to get down to details, response past 16kHz is not required for transparent reproduction on almost all music program(not counting some rare synthesized music examples that may add very high amplitude high frequency components that are long in duration), according to peer-reviewed and credited perceptual [1]tests with multiple trained subjects.

-Chris

Footnotes
[1] Which Bandwidth Is Necessary for Optimal Sound Transmission?
G. PLENGE, H. JAKUBOWSKI, AND P. SCHONE
JAES, Volume 28 Number 3 pp. 114-119; March 1980

 

[goodman]

Isn't it interesting that we can have totally civilized discourse through over 200 posts concerning evolution v. intelligent design, and remained courteous and humorous through many posts on "Brokeback Mountain". But, get us started on the sound of speakers or cables, and the fur starts to fly.
BTW, I really enjoyed your review, Jaxvon.

 

[Nuglets]

You are absolutely right my man. It's all about the music. And don't worry. I'm chill. I just wanted to explain why the speakers are not bright, because of the combination. But maybe I didn't do that correctly because I was enthousiastic of the results. For that I apoligise. But if you could notice better, what I said is that it doesn't matter how high quality the components are. They must gel with the speakers. Is the most fundamental truth in mix and match audio. Synergy. That's the magic. Because there are always slight differences of sonic signature between parts. And I kept mentioning the cables because without them my system didn't gel with these speakers. The HT's have a rich, full, smooth tonal balance (but still very transparent with huge soundstage) which make the SLIGHT weaknesses of these speakers vanish. My components are basically neutral. As a result the 705's leanish character becomes more balanced. Bass is fuller and deeper. Voices fuller and natural. Treble only serves a wonderful soundstage with no harshness.
Did you notice what else I said? "But you try things out yourself and trust your ears!" Does that sound to you like trying to impose ones opinion? I didn't think anybody was yelling to jaxvon.

More people in this thread and many more elsewere had different results as well. Doesn't that make it relevant for other people that might be interested in these speakers? At the end is important that we try out things and see what we like. Just don't do the same mistake I use to make to dispose quickly speakers or components with the first hint of nastyness. It takes much more than just 30' of brief listening.

Enjoy the music

I'm gellin...Are you gellin?

 

[highfihoney]

Your review of the 705's is very much like what i hear from all b&w speakers when some power is put through them no matter the model,room or associated gear,at lower volumes they sound ok or even good but after they get some juice going through them they sound terrible to me.

 

[furrycute]

In the original post, Jaxvon stated that his usual audio gear consists of a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphone. That particular model has been used extensively in the recording industry, as the de facto monitor headphone for many years. They do give a flat response, but many people also find that particular model intolerably bright. I listened through a pair, and I found them to be too bright as well.

 

[Buckle-meister]

The top of the line Nautilus active speaker also has a 15" driver.

Negative. The flagship Nautilus uses a 12" driver.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I have had the 705s for a few months now. My obsevations so far:
1) Very detailed highs (almost to the point of hearing the individual ridges on brushed cymbals) with a slight trace of brightness, but never fatiguing.
2) Natural midrange, especially on vocals (I can distinguish between the members of Celtic Woman when they sing in chorus.)
3) Clean bass with no traces of muddiness or boominess, and greater extension than one would expect from the published specs.
4) Some of the best imaging/soundstaging that I have yet heard. Their ability to place sounds well outside the space between the speakers is almost uncanny.

Overall, they sound very good with every style of music I have tried them with, but outstanding with jazz. If you love jazz at moderate volumes, I strongly suggest giving them a listen.

 

[nwarren]

i'm thinking about selling my paradigm studio 60 v.3's to go with either the b&w 705's, 704's, or 805s's. i have been running a rotel arrangement for over a year now and i have always liked how b&w's sounded, i just liked paradigm's prices better. i'll let you all know how they turn out when i get it done.

i'll write a review on my paradigm's as soon as i get new post priveleges.

 

[tbewick]

In the original post, Jaxvon stated that his usual audio gear consists of a pair of Sony MDR-7506 headphone ['Still, compared to my usual listening tool (Sony MDR-7506 headphones, EQ'd according to WmAx's specs for flat response), the [B&W] 705's seemed bright.' - Jaxvon]. That particular model has been used extensively in the recording industry, as the de facto monitor headphone for many years. They do give a flat response, but many people also find that particular model intolerably bright. I listened through a pair, and I found them to be too bright as well.

I'd like to say that equalizing headphones for flat response is not meant to be a good idea. Due to the way the ear pinnae alter the frequency response of incoming sound, headphones show unnatural colouration when set for a flat frequency response. This is not an issue with loudspeakers, since the pinnae is active, as it would be at a live performance. A flat response is only aimed for in normal loudspeakers.

Negative. The flagship Nautilus uses a 12" driver.

I think it's difficult to know which speaker is the current B&W flagship model! My original post where I mentioned the driver size referred to the 800D, which is currently used at Abbey Road EMI.

One other thing I think is worth saying is that what a producer decides to do with a mix will depend on his/her's monitor speakers, and many studios use horn speakers. This is because they have a greater output capacity due to their greater efficiency, but horns are generally considered to be less accurate than the best conventional, non-horn designs.

 

[WmAx]

I'd like to say that equalizing headphones for flat response is not meant to be a good idea. Due to the way the ear pinnae alter the frequency response of incoming sound, headphones show unnatural colouration when set for a flat frequency response. This is not an issue with loudspeakers, since the pinnae is active, as it would be at a live performance. A flat response is only aimed for in normal loudspeakers.

You would normally be correct, however, I am aware of the variables concerning headphone systems. The only things that are equalized concerning this headphone are 2 inherent resonances of the transducer, as well as an inherent dip at about 205 Hz.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=46352#post46352

-Chris

 

[Dolby CP-200]

I saw these at one of the few Hi-Fi shops that are around the Bournemouth area a few years ago, I must say a little overpriced I think (Movement Audio) was flogging them off at close to £800.00 for the pair at the time.

They looked nice for a three-screen set-up for home cinema in a modest size room.

Never had the chance to book an appointment to see what they might sound like for films and general non sync music.

Reading the word harsh, a few times over in this thread about the B&W 705 sounds like there really naff for the price. Naff means no good!

But looking at the specifications shows a nice frequency response, sensitive is around the same for my JBL control 5 except the steep price for the B&W 705.

Adding to this I would say if they are mated with an (active crossover) I would say you would be able to eliminate the harshness from the B&W 705.

Just a thought.

Technical Specifications: 705

Description 2-way vented-box system
Dimensions Height: 421mm (16.6 in)
Width: 222mm (8.7 in)
Depth: 319mm (12.6 in)

Net Weight 9.5kg (21 lb)
Freq. Response 46Hz – 25kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 43Hz and 50kHz
Sensitivity 89dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
Normal Impedance 8Ω (minimum 4.6Ω)
Power Handling 50W – 120W into 8Ω on unclipped programme
Drive Units Unit 1: ø165mm (6.5 in) woven Kevlar® cone bass/midrange
Unit 2: ø25mm (1 in) alloy dome high-frequency
Unit 3:

Finish Cabinet: Real wood veneers of Maple, Cherrywood, Rosenut, Walnut or Black Ash
Dispersion Description: Within 2dB of reference response
Horizontal: over 40º arc
Vertical: over 10º arc

Harmonic Distortion 2nd and 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<1% 90Hz – 20kHz
<0.5% 150Hz – 18kHz
Crossover Frequency 3.7kHz
Max. Recommended Cable Impedance 0.1Ω

 

[WmAx]

Technical Specifications: 705

Description 2-way vented-box system
Dimensions Height: 421mm (16.6 in)
Width: 222mm (8.7 in)
Depth: 319mm (12.6 in)

Net Weight 9.5kg (21 lb)
Freq. Response 46Hz – 25kHz ±3dB on reference axis
Freq. Range -6dB at 43Hz and 50kHz
Sensitivity 89dB spl (2.83V, 1m)
Normal Impedance 8Ω (minimum 4.6Ω)
Power Handling 50W – 120W into 8Ω on unclipped programme
Drive Units Unit 1: ø165mm (6.5 in) woven Kevlar® cone bass/midrange
Unit 2: ø25mm (1 in) alloy dome high-frequency
Unit 3:

Finish Cabinet: Real wood veneers of Maple, Cherrywood, Rosenut, Walnut or Black Ash
Dispersion Description: Within 2dB of reference response
Horizontal: over 40º arc
Vertical: over 10º arc

Harmonic Distortion 2nd and 3rd harmonics (90dB, 1m)
<1% 90Hz – 20kHz
<0.5% 150Hz – 18kHz
Crossover Frequency 3.7kHz
Max. Recommended Cable Impedance 0.1Ω

The specifications above really don't give much information. I can design and build two different speakers that fit within the specifications above, and they will sound very different due to variables I changed between the two that are not encompassed by the specifications above. Perhaps the only useful specifications listed are the nominal impedance and sensitivity, to give you an idea(even these are still too generalized) of what amplifier requirements are optimal. Assuming of course, that these specifications are accurate.

-Chris

 

[Dolby CP-200]

WmAx

For example the B&W 705 might play havoc with most AVR impedance with the whole thing shutting down as soon as the impedance doesn’t seem to match within the lower frequencies I have seen this happen with mine and an old friend where we both use the same AVR but his loudspeakers where B&W DM 601 left and right and a mismatched B&W centre channel the one with the 5” drivers? The whole thing just kept cutting out and it took me a few minutes to solve it for him.

So these new well last years last years B&W 705 don’t fit the bill? They look nice and there not cheap be any means.