Axiom Audio EP500 VS SVS PB12-Plus/2

[Sheep]

Sheep ... Once you have identified all this under blind conditions, you will have something. Having participated in 100's of BT's, both as a listener and moderator, it is surprising what happens. ALL sorts of things people think they can identify end up not being audible under blind conditions.

Everyone talks about blind tests, but if you go in there with the right head on your shoulders, you don't need to blind test everything.

I went in there expecting the subwoofer to sound good, considering how it measured, and it did, but it had that over hang related to the high GD.

SheepStar

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Still very new to your forum, Love it by the way!!! Very curious about these two subwoofers, Does anybody know which is better? Price is about the same I think $1000. Love the SVS subwoofers, any input would be greatly appreiciated. Thank you guys.

This thread really got off track in a hurry. It's slowly becoming another flame war, when in reality this newbie needs to provide us some more info. Here's what I'd want to know.

JC - which is better for you? There are many variables here. For instance:

How much room do you have for a sub? One measures 19x26.5x28" and is 140lbs. Another is 19.5x15x19.5" and weighs 72lbs. Can your room actually accomodate the larger? Few rooms can, so is it an option?

How large is your room? Only the very largest of rooms will need either of these subs.

What are your listening preferences? What types of movies and music do you listen to? Are you out to impress friends with the deepest of bass in movies, or will you simply add this to your existing setup, listening to jazz music.

At what volumes do you listen to music? Can your existing system keep up with these types of subs if fully utilized? On one hand, you have a 900 watt BASH amp pushing dual 12" drivers, and on another, you have a 500 watt (MAX-not sure on rms) amp pushing a single 12" driver.

The Axiom is $1200 shipped (choice of finish and grill), while the rough finished black Plus/2 is $1298 shipped, but also comes in upgraded finishes - the Piano gloss black running $1598. The upgraded finishes on the Plus/2 add a parametric eq to the amp for increased room balancing. So you really aren't in the $1000 price bracket.

I've not heard the Axiom, but have read very good things about it. I've been to the SVS headquarters, and heard all their subs. There is not much that compares to the dual driver Plus/2. I personally preferred the duals over any of the singles. There was not vast differences in SQ between the Plus/2 and Ultra/2 until you got up into the very highest spl levels - so much so that it hurt to listen.

One can achieve excellent musical SQ with much smaller subs, with properly calibrated eq's, room placement, and setup. I've heard a large percentage of non-internet direct subs, and few have impressed like SVS has with HT. Unless you are into pipe organ type music, these are overkill. SVS IMO went to hit a home run in the HT market (and did). They also happened to develop a great sounding musical sub at the same time. Does this mean if Axiom put together a dual 12" 900 watt sub that it couldn't compete? Heck no - with technology advancing as fast as it is, it would probably succeed the Plus/2. But I'm sure SVS would fire back with something else.

On paper, you are getting more hard product for your dollar with a Plus/2. That's where I end on the "which is better" question. You are also getting an end table that may land you in divorce court if it doesn't blend with the room decor.

So please, answer the above questions, which may help us help you decide what you really "need" in your setup.

BTW, welcome to the forum!

 

[craigsub]

Everyone talks about blind tests, but if you go in there with the right head on your shouldiers, you don't need to blind test everything.

I went in there expecting the subwoofer to sound good, considering how it measured, and it did, but it had that over hang related to the high GD.

SheepStar

Sheep .... I have heard the "blind tests are not needed" argument 100's of times ... no worries, if you think that you don't need them, that is ok. It is a free society ...

 

[JeffD2.]

Sheep,
Have you ever particapated in a BT? After all, almost everyone agrees your own hearing should be the criteria for judging a speaker/sub purchase. I suspect whether you have "the right head on your shoulders" won't be an issue.

 

[Sheep]

Sheep,
Have you ever particapated in a BT? After all, almost everyone agrees your own hearing should be the criteria for judging a speaker/sub purchase. I suspect whether your "head is right" won't be an issue.

Another one.

I was only listening to ONE SUBWOOFER! I didn't compare it to anything, just a listening evalutation. How will my thoughts be different if I can see it or not?

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Another one.

I was only listening to ONE SUBWOOFER! I didn't compare it to anything, just a listening evalutation. How will my thoughts be different if I can see it or not?

SheepStar

Young Grasshopper - until you have tried, you won't understand ...

Seriously - You said it was Group Delay which was the problem. How do you know it was group delay ? Keith Yates, who installs subwoofers for a living, trued to pick out group delay in a blind test. He could not do it. But you can, with complete confidence, say you heard group delay while auditioning ONE subwoofer ?

Think about it ... no one is picking on you, just trying to help you make sense of what you think you heard ...

 

[Sheep]

Young Grasshopper - until you have tried, you won't understand ...

Seriously - You said it was Group Delay which was the problem. How do you know it was group delay ? Keith Yates, who installs subwoofers for a living, trued to pick out group delay in a blind test. He could not do it. But you can, with complete confidence, say you heard group delay while auditioning ONE subwoofer ?

Think about it ... no one is picking on you, just trying to help you make sense of what you think you heard ...

I heard the metaphorical iquivilent of "slow"(because I don't feel slow is a proper definition). I don't know whether it was GD, but the meaurments show this havent alot of it.

Also, you never answered my question.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

I heard the metaphorical iquivilent of "slow"(because I don't feel slow is a proper definition). I don't know whether it was GD, but the meaurments show this havent alot of it.

Also, you never answered my question.

SheepStar

Are you referring to the question about how would a blind test assist when you were listening to one subwoofer ?

If so, the answer is relatively simple. You have a hypothesis that it was group delay. What you need to do next is take a subwoofer like the Def Tech, and, say, a Velo DD-18 ... match them for FR, which is easy with the Velo, as long as one has proper measuring gear, then do a level matched, blind test between the two.

If GD is an audible difference, it would be quite simple to hear it.

 

[Sheep]

Are you referring to the question about how would a blind test assist when you were listening to one subwoofer ?

If so, the answer is relatively simple. You have a hypothesis that it was group delay. What you need to do next is take a subwoofer like the Def Tech, and, say, a Velo DD-18 ... match them for FR, which is easy with the Velo, as long as one has proper measuring gear, then do a level matched, blind test between the two.

If GD is an audible difference, it would be quite simple to hear it.

The Ultracube is a paradigm.

And thats not what the question is about. Its about the arrival of 1/24 graphs for the HO and Ultra.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

The Ultracube is a paradigm.

And thats not what the question is about. Its about the arrival of 1/24 graphs for the HO and Ultra.

SheepStar

Excuse me, I thought you were referring to Def Tech. My mistake. I will eventually post raw graphs of quite a few subs. So far, it is you and one other guy who are so interested. Fascinating.

And you still have no idea why you thought there was something amiss with the Paradigm.

I am leaving this now - you think you know the answer. Until you can do some proper blind tests, you don't, but my saying so will not convince you.

As for everyone else, we all come to conclusions for different reasons, and under different circumstances. Blind tests are not everyone's answer. Some prefer to look at a product, then to listen, then look at measurements, and declare ... THAT is what I thought.

Others prefer to keep possible biases out.

Whichever one decides, it is all good...

 

[Sheep]

If I remember correctly, I left this after bucks post, and used a PM. You then told me to go to the thread if I wanted an answer.

W/E you can discount measurements all you want.

SheepStar

 

[silversurfer]

W/E you can discount measurements all you want.

Seems like you are discounting listening.

 

[korgoth]

Another one.

I was only listening to ONE SUBWOOFER! I didn't compare it to anything, just a listening evalutation. How will my thoughts be different if I can see it or not?

SheepStar

placebo is a real effect in 40% of humans, so seeing the sub, or reading the graphs before hand, will lots of times truely make a difference in how you felt it preformed.

 

[Manic Miner]

Doing a direct comparison between the avtalk test of the Plus/2 and Ed's Plus test is wrong for 2 reasons. The avtalk tests have every SVS measuring a little bit worse then in other tests when you look at SPL/THD. I think this is because of their testing method. And to top it of the Plus/2 tested there is equiped with 12.1 drivers, and we know from Ilkkas test that the 12.2 driver will deliver up to 6db more.

I also seem to remember Ed saying that the Plus/2 will exceed the single Plus in the lowest frequencies too, but with higher THD numbers. Overall the Plus/2is 50-70% louder then its single brother, but it costs only 33% more. So if you have a large room, or just like to listen at stupendous sound levels the Plus/2 is a gift from above.

 

[Manic Miner]

I just took a peek at the avtalk numbers for the PC Plus and the Plus/2, and the Plus/2 delivers exactly 6db more at 20hz, but with a bit more distortion.

 

[craigsub]

Doing a direct comparison between the avtalk test of the Plus/2 and Ed's Plus test is wrong for 2 reasons. The avtalk tests have every SVS measuring a little bit worse then in other tests when you look at SPL/THD. I think this is because of their testing method. And to top it of the Plus/2 tested there is equiped with 12.1 drivers, and we know from Ilkkas test that the 12.2 driver will deliver up to 6db more.

I also seem to remember Ed saying that the Plus/2 will exceed the single Plus in the lowest frequencies too, but with higher THD numbers. Overall the Plus/2is 50-70% louder then its single brother, but it costs only 33% more. So if you have a large room, or just like to listen at stupendous sound levels the Plus/2 is a gift from above.

Amazing. For 6 months I said using the data from different reviews was not correct. Now you agree with me. Welcome aboard ...

Let's assume your numbers are correct: 50 to 70 % louder is 3-4 dB. For $300 more, you get 3-4 dB.

Is it worth the extra $$$ ? I don't make those judgements for others. The Plus/2, in order to get 16 Hz extension, will have a single 4 inch port, vs. the Plus having dual 3 inch ports, ... there are a lot of considerations for people to make in the purchase decision.

 

[Manic Miner]

Yes, if your priority are the absolute deepest frequncies, 10- maybe 16hz? I think that the single Plus, or even better the 16-46 is your best bet. By going for the Plus/2 you will sacrifise some extension, and gain SPL.

If its worth it? Well, if you have a large room, or if you are deaf or maybe just a certified lunatic It is extremly hard to tell others what they need SPL wise, in Norway there is a guy who has a Plus/2 in a 10m2 big room, and he still thinks he could use just a tad more sub, while others run PB10s, and other small subs in rooms 3-4 times the size and are happy with it.

The only thing I know for sure is that many will eventually move up to a bigger, or a 2nd, 3rd or 4th sub to satisfy their need for bass, because bass is addictive, and after some time you will need more of it to get the "silly grin sensation" all over again.

Maýbe subwoofers should be classified as a prescrition drug? Think of it, it is addictive, and we fight over them like crack heads

 

[---k---]

isn't 1m roughly equal to 3.2'. So, a 10m2 room is like 32'x32', and I consider that very large. I'm guessing you got your conversion backwords.

I would be quiet unhappy with a Plus/2 in a 30x30 room, especailly if it wasn't sealed.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

MM: The only thing I know for sure is that many will eventually move up to a bigger, or a 2nd, 3rd or 4th sub to satisfy their need for bass, because bass is addictive, and after some time you will need more of it to get the "silly grin sensation" all over again.

I think we can all agree there. Some even have a "sickness for bass."

 

[jakeman]

I'm glad for Manic that he likes his subs so much. Graphs and quantitative analysis are important but one can not truly determine which sub will be best for him without listening and examining closely the design features. All this talk of extension and SPLs on subs disguises the most important aspect of subs, namely how the sound in the audible range. I've always maintained that those stats that we see on graphs especially THD+d are misleading because they don't address the other distortions which affect sound quality. Sound quality also includes SPL and extension by the way.

My investigation of the my SVS Ultra led me to conclude that much of the infrasonics consisted of distortion artifacts which were smearing the sound in the audible range. Like many of the SVS subs it has a characteristic lack of linearity in the low to mid-bass region which becomes evident at high SPLs. Where the SVS sub has the advantage is on that extension below 20hz which though inaudible is nice to have though it's harmonics do tend to smear the sound higher in the audibel band where it really counts. The ep500 has a FR linearity because of its sophisticated DSP controlled large digital amp which will always make it sound better that the comparable SVS subs. If SPLs are as important as one suggests, the 500 is much more prodigious in the upper bass.

I will post this graph comparing the 500 to the Ultra to assist the OP seeing how its been discussed extensively already. Its not the PB12-Plus/2 which I understand will have more output than the Ultra so the comparison is not exactly what you are looking for but the additional info may help you along with the other graphs.