Axiom Audio EP500 VS SVS PB12-Plus/2

[Ajax]

Ajax: No, and no.

But I do think that it is obvious that the Humvee will tackle rough obstacles better then the Camry, and that the Plus/2 is louder and deeper then the EP500. Do you disagree?

Having never heard the Plus/2 I can't really say, but I suspect the Plus/2 will play a bit louder at slightly lower frequencies. However, "lower" and "louder" is not synonymous with "better." Though I do not pretend to know the OP's desires or needs, the EP500 plays low ENOUGH, and loud ENOUGH to be considered in "the same league." It's not like it cuts off at 30 Hz, and won't go over 100dB. THAT would be in a different league. I get down to 19Hz in my room, and others have reported even lower response in theirs.

Remember, at the blind listening session the EP500 was preferred to the Ultra, by 5 of 6 listeners, 3 of whom owned SVS subwoofers. And, the Ultra also plays a little louder at slightly lower frequencies. Does that mean the OP would prefer the EP500? Not necessarily. But, it does sorta negate the "not in the same league" overstatement, doesn't it.

If "lower" and "louder" is the OP's sole criteria, his choice is easy. If he is interested in quality of bass reproduction, particularly above 23 Hz, where most bass information can be found, his choice is considerably more difficult. And, since you haven't heard the EP500 you are unable to speak to the the quality of it's sound. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Ajax]

physics becomes the reason for my opinion, not SPL.

What "physics" are you talking about?

 

[silversurfer]

However, "lower" and "louder" is not synonymous with "better."

BINGO!!! Simply something that not everyone understands or listens for.

 

[silversurfer]

What "physics" are you talking about?

Hey! Didn't I ask him that already?

 

[Sheep]

2 12inch drivers and a bigger box. The Plus/2 has the upper hand with extention and SPL.

Actually, here. This unit is using the 12.1 drivers.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14729&start=0&rid=7736&SQ=1144097569

Now we need measurements of the axiom under the same conditions.

SheepStar

 

[silversurfer]

2 12inch drivers and a bigger box. The Plus/2 has the upper hand with extention and SPL.

OK, so you are stating the same thing: louder and lower.

That doesn't make a better subwoofer.

 

[Ajax]

Hey! Didn't I ask him that already?

You did! You did! I thought that maybe if TWO of us asked him, we might get a reasonable answer.

 

[Sheep]

OK, so you are stating the same thing: louder and lower.

That doesn't make a better subwoofer.

Well, if you scrolled down you will also see decent THD figures.

That test has all the measurements needed to judge a subwoofer(plus its using the older driver).

Why don't you point out an area where you think the EP500 will perform better?

SheepStar

 

[Manic Miner]

Having never heard the Plus/2 I can't really say, but I suspect the Plus/2 will play a bit louder at slightly lower frequencies. However, "lower" and "louder" is not synonymous with "better." Though I do not pretend to know the OP's desires or needs, the EP500 plays low ENOUGH, and loud ENOUGH to be considered in "the same league." It's not like it cuts off at 30 Hz, and won't go over 100dB. THAT would be in a different league. I get down to 19Hz in my room, and others have reported even lower response in theirs.

Remember, at the blind listening session the EP500 was preferred to the Ultra, by 5 of 6 listeners, 3 of whom owned SVS subwoofers. And, the Ultra also plays a little louder at slightly lower frequencies. Does that mean the OP would prefer the EP500? Not necessarily. But, it does sorta negate the "not in the same league" overstatement, doesn't it.

If "lower" and "louder" is the OP's sole criteria, his choice is easy. If he is interested in quality of bass reproduction, particularly above 23 Hz, where most bass information can be found, his choice is considerably more difficult. And, since you haven't heard the EP500 you are unable to speak to the the quality of it's sound. Wouldn't you agree?

And just when did you see me utter a single word about sound quality? A large part of the SQ sits in the ears of the listener and in his preferences, so it is a topic that it is hard to discuss in a meaningful way. And I never said that louder was better either, but loud enough is better then not loud enough all things else being equal.

The Plus/2 will go considerably louder, and deeper, so it is in a different league. The single Plus and the EP500 on the other hand are in the same league, but even those two subs can not be considered twins separated at birth. The Plus is a larger sub with a lower (and variable) tuning point, and it has a longer stroke driver. These 3 factors will give it better performance in the bottom octave, that is not open for discussion But does that make it a better sub? Well, if you want a bigger sub with better performance in the bottom octave, then definetly yes. If that isn't you main concern then you will have to consider other factors.

I think we are straying to far away from the topic now, and we should probably ask the OP to tell us a bit about what he wants?

After reading Craigs shootout so far, I can tell the the arrival of the HO means that SVS is no longer alone about delivering high SPLs in the bottom octave. As if things were not complicated enough

 

[silversurfer]

That test has all the measurements needed to judge a subwoofer(plus its using the older driver).

You have been brainwashed.

Why don't you point out an area where you think the EP500 will perform better?

I didn't say it would perform better. I said the ultimate test is listening to it.

Do you think the two subwoofers would sound the same in the 25hz to 60hz range?

 

[silversurfer]

These 3 factors will give it better performance in the bottom octave, that is not open for discussion But does that make it a better sub?

The key being the "bottom octave". What about the rest? What weight do you give the performance above that octave?

 

[silversurfer]

After reading Craigs shootout so far, I can tell the the arrival of the HO means that SVS is no longer alone about delivering high SPLs in the bottom octave. As if things were not complicated enough

While I would tend to agree with that, I think the more significant piece of the "HO" is the XBL^2 driver and how it performs over the entire "stroke". I would love to put one of these things through its paces at my place.

 

[Ajax]

And just when did you see me utter a single word about sound quality? A large part of the SQ sits in the ears of the listener and in his preferences, so it is a topic that it is hard to discuss in a meaningful way. And I never said that louder was better either, but loud enough is better then not loud enough all things else being equal.

The Plus/2 will go considerably louder, and deeper, so it is in a different league. The single Plus and the EP500 on the other hand are in the same league, but even those two subs can not be considered twins separated at birth. The Plus is a larger sub with a lower (and variable) tuning point, and it has a longer stroke driver. These 3 factors will give it better performance in the bottom octave, that is not open for discussion But does that make it a better sub? Well, if you want a bigger sub with better performance in the bottom octave, then definetly yes. If that isn't you main concern then you will have to consider other factors.

I think we are straying to far away from the topic now, and we should probably ask the OP to tell us a bit about what he wants?

After reading Craigs shootout so far, I can tell the the arrival of the HO means that SVS is no longer alone about delivering high SPLs in the bottom octave. As if things were not complicated enough

Heh Heh! I didn't say you said anything about "sound quality." I was merely pointing out that you have never heard the EP500, and therefore have no idea how it sounds.

"Considerably" louder and lower is a subjective conclusion. I do not share it.

I agree that "loud enough is better then [sic] not loud enough all things else being equal." And, I made it clear that IMO, in the opinion of 6 of 6 listeners in a blind listening test, and in the opinion of many satisfied owners, the EP500 plays loud enough. Are you implying the EP500 won't play "loud enough." If that is your implication, how can you say, having never heard the EP500 yourself. If not, what's your point?

We have another thing we can agree on. If louder in the bottom octave is your definition of "better," then the Plus/2 is "better." If getting superior performance in everything over approximately 23 Hz where most bass information can be found, and getting it in a more compact package which allows more placement options, then the EP500 is "better." I could not fit a Plus/2 in my room, and wouldn't want to if I could. So, to me, subjectively, it's not even in the EP500's league.

 

[Manic Miner]

The key being the "bottom octave". What about the rest? What weight do you give the performance above that octave?

Since I use my sub for music 90% of the time and most of the bass found in music is well above those frequencies how it sounds there is what is most important to me.

But not having enough SPL on the other hand is a terrible thing, especially for movies. I previously had a PB10, but it got stretched to the limit (not over because of the limiter) whenever I were watching movies. I did not know how bad it was before I got my Plus because it has the SPL headroom necessarry to reproduce the dynamics in a room my size, at the SPL levels I prefer.

I think I'll say a little something about louder, and better as well. The increase in performance is larger then the increase in price between the Plus and the Plus/2, but yet I bought the single Plus. The reason why? It is enough for me. The Plus/2 would have taken up slightly more space, and left a somewhat bigger hole in my wallet, and the benefits would have been few since I don't use the Plus anywhere near its limit (other then when I'm trying to impress my friends). So yes, pick the sub that fits your needs best, but try to have a little bit of headroom left.

 

[craigsub]

This probably belongs in the review thread, but this will do for now ... I will be doing the same scenes from WOTW and Batman Begins through the EP-500, and posting those graphs ...

then, after a few days of listening, a GP session will be done.

 

[Ajax]

Why don't you point out an area where you think the EP500 will perform better?

Already been stated. Even MM agrees the EP500 has the edge at all frequencies above approximately 23 Hz. where the vast majority of bass resides, particularly when it comes to linear response. I want to make it clear that I do not negate the value of that low octave of bass response. If I could get a sub that would give me the depth of the Plus/2 with the clean response of the EP500 at a price I could afford, I would be one happy camper. It just comes down to what is important to you. If it's "low" and "loud," in a big, heavy box, go with the Plus/2. If it's linear response, and performance, above 23 Hz. in a more compact, lighter box, then the EP500 is preferable. At this point, in the subwoofer world, each design must make tradeoffs to achieve its intended goals.

 

[Ajax]

This probably belongs in the review thread, but this will do for now ... I will be doing the same scenes from WOTW and Batman Begins through the EP-500, and posting those graphs ...

then, after a few days of listening, a GP session will be done.

Looking forward to this, Craig. By the way. You have a much higher probability of understanding subwoofers. MUCH HIGHER!!!!

 

[silversurfer]

I am in the same opinion as Jack. I want the majority of my bass "right". That bottom octave is gravy, and only gravy, if the rest of the bass is correct.

There is not a whole lot of material below 20hz-25hz, and even so, below that point it becomes more difficult to hear distortion. Then you need to ask yourself at that extension, how much SPL is enough and what are you willing to give up for it.

My challenge is for people to listen to the 30-60hz range. In this area, I think it becomes very easy to hear the differences in articulation, texture, and such. Seriously, have a listen some time to material in this area with only the sub on, no speakers, it is pretty ear opening. Oh, and try different highly rated subs.

 

[---k---]

This probably belongs in the review thread, but this will do for now ... I will be doing the same scenes from WOTW and Batman Begins through the EP-500, and posting those graphs ...

then, after a few days of listening, a GP session will be done.

Oooh oooh oooh. I just watched Batman Begins for the first time this weekend. I thorougly enjoyed it, and the bass. Looking forward to your comments.

 

[craigsub]

Looking forward to this, Craig. By the way. You have a much higher probability of understanding subwoofers. MUCH HIGHER!!!!

I thought trying to figure out women was setting the bar higher ...