Axiom Audio EP500 VS SVS PB12-Plus/2

[Sheep]

You have been brainwashed.


I didn't say it would perform better. I said the ultimate test is listening to it.

Do you think the two subwoofers would sound the same in the 25hz to 60hz range?

I can't say. Give me measurements done in the same fashion and I might be able to give an opinion. Hence

Now if we only had measurements of the EP500

Every time an Axiom gets measured, theres controversy. Either the test was flawed, or some other reason.

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

Already been stated. Even MM agrees the EP500 has the edge at all frequencies above approximately 23 Hz. where the vast majority of bass resides, particularly when it comes to linear response. I want to make it clear that I do not negate the value of that low octave of bass response. If I could get a sub that would give me the depth of the Plus/2 with the clean response of the EP500 at a price I could afford, I would be one happy camper. It just comes down to what is important to you. If it's "low" and "loud," in a big, heavy box, go with the Plus/2. If it's linear response, and performance, above 23 Hz. in a more compact, lighter box, then the EP500 is preferable. At this point, in the subwoofer world, each design must make tradeoffs to achieve its intended goals.

Except for Velodyne Digital drives.

SheepStar

 

[Manic Miner]

Already been stated. Even MM agrees the EP500 has the edge at all frequencies above approximately 23 Hz. .

If MM is me, then no I don't. As I've said SQ is partially a subjective opinion, and since I never have heard the 500 I can't say if it's better.

Personally I think that the EP's are a tad overpriced when compared to the competition. There is also the brick wall 100hz filter that will cut away the last 20hz of the LFE track. It probably doesn't make a big difference? But I would know that it was there. I'm also a bit fond of the variable tuning of the Plus because I can trade in SPL for extension (I run it in 16hz tune for movies, 12 for music, 20hz when scaring visitors with the Darla scene )

So for me the Plus is the better sub.

 

[silversurfer]

Every time an Axiom gets measured, theres controversy. Either the test was flawed, or some other reason.

I will stir the pot a bit on this one. Whenever an SVS sub is measured, you see people saying "my measurements match his measurements"(the same people), but stray away from an SVS sub, and people can not get matching measurements.

Now, come up with at least two possible scenarios as to why that happens.

 

[silversurfer]

I can't say. Give me measurements done in the same fashion and I might be able to give an opinion. Hence

OK, so you have no idea which sounds better.

 

[Ajax]

If MM is me, then no I don't. As I've said SQ is partially a subjective opinion, and since I never have heard the 500 I can't say if it's better.

Personally I think that the EP's are a tad overpriced when compared to the competition. There is also the brick wall 100hz filter that will cut away the last 20hz of the LFE track. It probably doesn't make a big difference? But I would know that it was there. I'm also a bit fond of the variable tuning of the Plus because I can trade in SPL for extension (I run it in 16hz tune for movies, 12 for music, 20hz when scaring visitors with the Darla scene )

So for me the Plus is the better sub.

I stand corrected, and humbly apologize. What you said was "for SPL >25hz they will be more comparable." But, knowing your SVS bias, I interpret that as meaning you actually feel the EP500 will have the edge. Comparable in SPL, perhaps, but I believe the EP500's frequency response will be more linear above 23 Hz. That makes it "better" to me.

By the way, I have trouble reconciling the "in a different league" statement with the "for SPL >25hz they will be more comparable" statement. Comparable, yet in a different league? How does that work? The Plus/2 has it's advantages, but the EP500 has it's as well. To ignore those advantages by claiming the Plus/2 is "in a different league" is gross overstatement.

 

[Manic Miner]

I think the the Plus and the Ultra are two great examples of where objective measurements and subjective impressions collide.

If I'm not mistaken the Plus does as good in most, and in some categories even better then the Ultra? But yet most people prefer the Ultra for SQ. I have not had the chance to A/B test a Plus and an Ultra, but I've heard both. To my ear there were not any huge differences, if any at all. But without an A/B that observation is not worth musch. I also know of one guy who sold his Ultras and bought Plus's instead because he prefered them!

So once again there is no right and wrong answer to what sub has the best SQ, it is all in the ear of the listener.

Doing a blind listening test between the Ultra and the Plus sounds like a great idea

 

[Manic Miner]

Ajax: I said that the single Plus, and the EP500 are in the same league

 

[Ajax]

Ajax: I said that the single Plus, and the EP500 are in the same league

You're right. Here is your post that I was referencing.

The Plus/2 is in a different league as far as SPL, and depth goes. Also the single Plus will beat the EP500 for depth, but for SPL >25hz they will be more comparable.

What is your take on >25Hz SPL, and linearity of frequency response of the Plus/2 relative to the EP500?

 

[Sheep]

OK, so you have no idea which sounds better.

No, but from measurements I can get an Idea.

The Plus/2 has low THD till 20Hz on the 100dB sweep GP. The GD picks up, but other then that, I don't see how the EP500 can compete. You get a lot more subwoofer for the price. They both have Flat FRs, and low THD, except one goes louder and lower and is tunable.

SheepStar

 

[silversurfer]

No, but from measurements I can get an Idea.

The Plus/2 has low THD till 20Hz on the 100dB sweep GP. The GD picks up, but other then that, I don't see how the EP500 can compete. You get a lot more subwoofer for the price. They both have Flat FRs, and low THD, except one goes louder and lower and is tunable.

SheepStar

It is because you read and don't bother to listen. You do realize that a two speakers with the same flat FR and low THD may sound completely different.

Did you read what What Hi-Fi said of the PB10?

 

[Sheep]

It is because you read and don't bother to listen. You do realize that a two speakers with the same flat FR and low THD may sound completely different.

Did you read what What Hi-Fi said of the PB10?

Don't bother to listen? You make it sound like I have the opportunity to hear every sub made but look at graphs instead.

Also, speakers play many more Freqs. then subwoofer, so DUH they can sound different. Sub don't play enough freqs. to have a "timber". They either perform well with in measurements, or color the sound in a certain way(IE don't measure well).

SheepStar

 

[Cavediver]

The dual driver SVS, based on other test results, really are not much ahead of their single driver brothers, in regards to extension and output,

So what's the point of the dual drivers in the Plus/2? After recommendation from SVS based on the size of my room (over 5200 cu. ft.), I purchased a PB12-Plus/2. After some wrangling with the receiver set-up, I got the sub working and equalized with the rest of the speakers. I then noticed after checking to see how both drivers were working together that the rear driver was not working at all. SVS is sending a replacement driver. Anyway, even with only one driver working the sub shakes my whole house, so this has me wondering if I really needed the two driver sub and just what difference it will make when I get both drivers working? With only one driver working, I have the gain set to one notch above 0 and the receiver channel level is set to -4 db.

 

[craigsub]

AvTalk had the PB12-Plus/2 delivering 96.5 dB @ 20 Hz <10% THD. Ed Mullen had the PB12-Plus delivering 101.3 dB @ 20 Hz <10% THD.

If you run a computer model on your plus/2, you will find that the bass below 30 Hz is pretty close with one or 2 drivers, and may even be higher output with one, as there is more volume in the box. Ironically, in my experience, the dual driver SVS have somewhat better linearity ABOVE 30 Hz ... than do their single driver brothers. It is irony because we would expect 2 drivers to always do more in the deepest bass, but here, it is in the area in which the drivers are doing all the work, that the extra driver helps the most.

When near the tuning point, the driver is not moving very much, thus the comparable feel in the deep stuff with one driver.

 

[Sheep]

So what's the point of the dual drivers in the Plus/2? After recommendation from SVS based on the size of my room (over 5200 cu. ft.), I purchased a PB12-Plus/2. After some wrangling with the receiver set-up, I got the sub working and equalized with the rest of the speakers. I then noticed after checking to see how both drivers were working together that the rear driver was not working at all. SVS is sending a replacement driver. Anyway, even with only one driver working the sub shakes my whole house, so this has me wondering if I really needed the two driver sub and just what difference it will make when I get both drivers working? With only one driver working, I have the gain set to one notch above 0 and the receiver channel level is set to -4 db.

Just becasue one driver isn't working doesn't mean its the same as a plus. It has a more powerful amp and a bigger box helping too.

SheepStar

 

[silversurfer]

Don't bother to listen? You make it sound like I have the opportunity to hear every sub made but look at graphs instead.

Also, speakers play many more Freqs. then subwoofer, so DUH they can sound different. Sub don't play enough freqs. to have a "timber". They either perform well with in measurements, or color the sound in a certain way(IE don't measure well).

SheepStar

Isn't that how you are coming to your conclusions?

OK, so now you are saying subwoofers sound the same if they measure the same? There are a lot more measurements than FR and distortion.

 

[Sheep]

Isn't that how you are coming to your conclusions?

OK, so now you are saying subwoofers sound the same if they measure the same? There are a lot more measurements than FR and distortion.

Did you even look at my link? It has FR, THD, GD, and PC. Thats enough to form an opinion.

If I hear a subwoofer, I will let my ears decide, but I haven't heard them all; far from it. But I trust graphs more then reviewers; graphs don't show bias.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Sheep ... When Keith Yates did his Way Down Deep test, he also ran blind listening tests on a variety of subjects. Here is what he discovered ...

1. The 10% THD level is not typically the threshold of audibility for distortion. In his opinion, power compression mattered, THD did not.

2. He could not hear any differences due to Group Delay between any of the subwoofers tested.

3. In today's world, almost all subwoofers have flat anechoic or GP frequency response.

What do you think of Mr. Yate's findings ?

 

[Sheep]

Well, I heard a Paradigm Ultracube a week ago, and I have seen measurements on it.

When I heard it, it sounded tigh, but "slow". When I saw the measurements from av talk, it showed relatively low THD but high GD. That was what I was hearing.

Also, 10% THD at 20Hz may not be noticable, but at 40Hz or above it is. The frequency dictates what % of distortion will be audible or not. A 10% blanket statement is false, IMO.

My Velo's THD spikes around 35Hz, and I could hear the difference.

SheepStar

 

[craigsub]

Well, I heard a Paradigm Ultracube a week ago, and I have seen measurements on it.

When I heard it, it sounded tigh, but "slow". When I saw the measurements from av talk, it showed relatively low THD but high GD. That was what I was hearing.

Also, 10% THD at 20Hz may not be noticable, but at 40Hz or above it is. The frequency dictates what % of distortion will be audible or not. A 10% blanket statement is false, IMO.

My Velo's THD spikes around 35Hz, and I could hear the difference.

SheepStar

Sheep ... Once you have identified all this under blind conditions, you will have something. Having participated in 100's of BT's, both as a listener and moderator, it is surprising what happens. ALL sorts of things people think they can identify end up not being audible under blind conditions.