Axiom Audio EP500 VS SVS PB12-Plus/2

  • Thread starter jc1carter829@ho
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craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Steve42 said:
Yeah, I think people would be even more surprised if they took the test a few times one right after the other. I can see getting lucky a few times in a row within one test, but -45dB, yeah right........:rolleyes:

I'd like to see a test done with any quality gear where someone consistantly scores even close to that high. :)
Guys - It has been a few years since I had use for the statistics and QBA courses in college - but just doing some rough math in my head, if you take the appx. 28,000 people who got to the -12 to -24 dB ... just by GUESSING, appx. 1000 would make it to -45 dB.

Remember, it is a 50-50 guess.

Also - let's say you are listening at 85 dB. That is fairly loud. -45 dB means a total harmonic of 40 dB. It is a pretty safe bet that the loudest single harmonic is 37 dB.

The typical room has a noise floor of 40 dB, IF it is really quiet. Is anyone REALLY hearing -45 dB ? Or is it a few guys guessing their way through ... ?
 
J

jakeman

Junior Audioholic
jmprader said:
Looking at the results pages, I'd be very interested to meet the guys who got to -45...I'll bet none of those guys never attended a Dead Concert in the 70's...
That's for sure.:cool: People less than 15 years old with near perfect hearing could get that low. And the ones who could get there by flipping the right coin combination.

craigsub said:
I still chuckle over the guy who claimed to hear -45 dB on computer speakers.
I thought that was one of his more reasonable claims. ;)
 
I

Ilkka

Audioholic
Yes he has. With AVS he has been banned from four sites.
I would like to correct a few misunderstandings here. As far as I know, I'm banned currently only at AVS. Everyone can determine if that ban was deserved.

Zippy? I checked AVtalk and he is registered as belonging to the marketing department of another subwoofer manufacturer. Not worth any more discussion.
The status I have there is certainly NOT placed by me. Some AV Talk moderator has deliberately went into my personal profile and altered the information. I find that kind of behaviour extremely lowlife and sad. No mod should ever do such thing.

My relationship to SVS isn't any closer than any regular customer's who values their products and supports their way of thinking regarding good bass reproduction.
 
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craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Ilkka said:
My relationship to SVS isn't any closer than any regular customer's who values their products and supports their way of thinking regarding good bass reproduction.
This is the perfect definition of a fanboy. Every company has theirs. So, your devotion to SVS is retaining its amateur status, and that is fine. A few things about your behavior.

1. Stop calling people liars. Had you been in the same room with me, you would be missing a few teeth. After you recovered, though, you would be offered a hand in friendship. That is how we do things in America. With most guys, it only takes one really good beating for them to get manners.

2. Make sure you tell people up front it is your intention that SVS wins every test you conduct. Most already know it, and you will come across as more honest that way.

3. Get over your paranioa. People are not out to get you.

Any questions ?
 
J

jakeman

Junior Audioholic
The mods at AVtalk are fine honest people and its regretable to see them denigrated here.
 
S

Steve42

Audioholic
craigsub said:
This is the perfect definition of a fanboy. Every company has theirs. So, your devotion to SVS is retaining its amateur status, and that is fine. A few things about your behavior.

1. Stop calling people liars. Had you been in the same room with me, you would be missing a few teeth. After you recovered, though, you would be offered a hand in friendship. That is how we do things in America. With most guys, it only takes one really good beating for them to get manners.

2. Make sure you tell people up front it is your intention that SVS wins every test you conduct. Most already know it, and you will come across as more honest that way.

3. Get over your paranioa. People are not out to get you.

Any questions ?
From all I have read over the past year or so around these forums, I'd say that's good advice for just about everyone. :)
 
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Steve42 said:
That's my guess. ;)
Steve, I probably should have been a bit more detailed earlier, too. 28,000 people made it to the -12 to -18 dB level. Just by guessing, about 1000 people would make it to -45 dB. 1004 people made it.
 
Just realize that everyone is under the same rules. Life is better (and so are the threads) if the personal attacks stay out. We didn't single out a person, we singled out behavior.

Just remember it's not life or death - it's audio...
 
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Steve42 said:
From all I have read over the past year or so around these forums, I'd say that's good advice for just about everyone. :)
Steve, good point. SVS is not the only company with its ... "devoted followers" who want to make sure "their guy's" products are viewed as the best.

Where it gets sticky is when someone (actually, ANYONE) is doing reviews in order to prove it. If a "reviewer" has the same company winning every time, you are basically dealing with the East German judges at the Olympics ... :D
 
I

Ilkka

Audioholic
craigsub said:
2. Make sure you tell people up front it is your intention that SVS wins every test you conduct. Most already know it, and you will come across as more honest that way.
This is where you go wrong. Every single test/measurement I've taken has been as accurate and fair as possible to all brands/models. No fudge factors for SVS or different mic placements etc. I don't decide the winner before taking measurements, I only present the results and people can then dedice which sub they think performed best. Usually it's not easy to point out a clear winner, since I measure quite a lot of different variables. I haven't still measured a single sub, which would score best scores in every test I take. If we look only at one number, it's easy to say which one was the best, but it doesn't tell which one is overally the best performer. That's why we need to measure as many variables as possible and before purchasing listen to it in our own room. Of course this isn't possible always.

I hate to include any subjective listening tests into my subwoofers tests, since they would be only MY subjective opinions. Room acoustics, personal preferences, "bass taste" etc. cause unfortunately too many uncontrollable variables, which can significantly skew the end results. Of course listening to the sub is the most important thing, I mean what would you do with a sub which measures well, but sounds like shiat (if this would be possible), but the listening should be done in the room where the sub is going to be placed and by the ears of the end user, not by a person hundreds or thousands miles away in a totally different room.

The recent IMD test is a perfect example. I had NO IDEA how these two subs would fare out. I had never even measured IMD for ANY sub. I took the measurements, calculated the results and then presented them to all. The results show that Ultra has lower THD and IMD levels than EP-600, but it doesn't tell us anything else. They only show that the general assumption that high excursion drivers would suffer from excessive IMD isn't true. I'm planning to do some listening tonight, so I can include my subjective opinions, but still it won't tell how these two subs would sound to YOU.

And if it seems to you that SVS has won every test I've taken so far, it only tells us two things: SVS' products have been better than anything else I've tested so far, and/or I have only tested very few different products. I know that the second one is at least true. I have only tested two BK subs and one Axiom sub, all else have been SVS' products. There is a simple reason for this, but next session will be different for a reason. The main interest will be focused on other brands than SVS and since I already know some products lined up for testing, I can tell you with a 100% certainty, SVS WILL NOT win that test. :) Of course one needs to desice if they are willing to pay quite a lot more for that better performance.
3. Get over your paranioa. People are not out to get you.
Oh how I wish this would be true. :)
 
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Ilkka

Audioholic
Clint DeBoer said:
Just realize that everyone is under the same rules. Life is better (and so are the threads) if the personal attacks stay out. We didn't single out a person, we singled out behavior.

Just remember it's not life or death - it's audio...
I agree, but hopefully the same rules apply to ALL members. Otherwise it shows the bias of the moderators, which they shouldn't have. :)
 
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craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Ilkka, Until you actually make blind testing a part of your subwoofer tests, you are running half a test.

You also set abritrary test parameters which favor SVS. For example, you decided to use this "10 % THD + N" for your max output charts ..



Yet, in comression tests, the EP-600 delivered 99 dB @ 20 Hz ... Someone looking at this chart would think the EP-600 to be a poor performer. You KNEW this when you posted that chart.

I, along with several dozen other people (including Bossobass, who knows a few things about subwoofers) in our home, AND every other reviewer who has experienced the EP-600 has raved about its performance. At NO time is distortion audible with the EP-600.

And yet, Ilkka, I have seen several e-mails in which you told people about it having "cone cry, farting ... etc ..."

That is impossible with the EP-600. The DSP will not allow that to happen.

The EP-600 will deliver, @ 20 Hz, a 99 dB signal @ 2 meters ground plane with no audible distortion. The 86 db you list in the chart is totally mis-leading.

Yet, HERE is how you do the comparison to the PB10-ISD ...



According to your compression charts, the PB10ISD and the EP-600 match @ 20 Hz ... But, using your "10%" number, you got to make the SVS the winner.

You also still have this diatribe in your review ...

There are some small problems with the amp/gain control, which are actually preventing me from doing proper listening tests. The amp has some sort of a mute circuit and here is an explanation from Ian Colquhoun (president of the Axiom) how it works.

“The mute circuit in the EP600 is controlled by an algorithm and works completely differently than an analog mute circuit. The circuit will mute a single tone or even broadband non dynamic noise at 90 dB by 10 dB if you put the SPL meter 12 inches in front of the sub-woofer and on the floor. It will not however, do this to a music signal at anywhere near this dB level. The DSP algorithm is effectively analyzing the wave form to accomplish this. There are enormous advantages to this over analog in that the sub is capable of muting noise and the dreaded 50 Hz (60 Hz here) hum at higher levels without muting the music signal. This eliminates the problem of the sub not ever going into mute because of noise or hum, and the inverse of not coming on when it should.”

As Ian explained, the mute circuit also mutes non dynamic broadband noise, which means it will also mute a calibration tone from say AVIA disc. And that it what it really does. That 90 dB at 12” translates pretty well to 85 dB at 2 meters in-room, so when the calibration tone is being played, the tone jumps up and down by 10 dB, since the subwoofer isn’t quite sure if he should mute it or not. So why not calibrate to 90 dB then? One could do it, but it really doesn’t help at all, since the signal jumps also with a normal music signal!

That’s right. I can hear and measure a clean 10-11 dB jump at a certain dB level (around 80-90 dB). And this level of course happens to be in the middle of the usual listening level, so it basically turns listening into an impossible mission. But as you read it should not happen with a dynamic music signal.

I have discussed with these problems with the Axiom and I am sending my unit back for a check. If it is proven that this gain problem affected on some of the measured data, I will of course measure the new unit as soon as possible, which means the spring shootout.
You cannot do a listening evaluation with the EP-600 ?

I have tried to replicate the problem you had with the Avia disc, TrueRTA, Emotiva Test Tones ... etc ... it is no harder to calibrate than any other subwoofer.

You promised, in writing, to send the subwoofer back to Axiom. That promise is still in your review.
 
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Ilkka

Audioholic
jakeman said:
The mods at AVtalk are fine honest people and its regretable to see them denigrated here.
I take you agree it's okay for them to edit member's personal information and lock it, so that the member itself can not edit it?
 
Here's a tip for all of you... If you don't want every single subwoofer thread moved into the Steam Vent - you may want to draw a line in the sand, start a new thread and post all of the non-essentials there once things start to go off-topic.

Cause, really I have no interest in placing subwoofer threads in the Speaker forum that just degenerate into the standard back and forth.
 
A

Ajax

Audioholic
Ilkka said:
I take you agree it's okay for them to edit member's personal information and lock it, so that the member itself can not edit it?
Only if the edit is accurate. ;) There are many who think your behavior proves it is.
 
R

RMK!

Guest
Go it on your own!

Ilkka,

Why don't you start your own thread(s)? There, you and like minded individuals can post your graphs and enjoy the visual side of Audio to the fullest. You won't get the exposure you would by posting in more popular threads but at least it will be peaceful and you will no longer have to worry about being unjustly persecuted. Just trying to help:)
 
J

jakeman

Junior Audioholic
Ilkka said:
This is where you go wrong. Every single test/measurement I've taken has been as accurate and fair as possible to all brands/models.
Craig is right and you would be wise to not accuse him of lying again. Anyone reading your Finnish shootout II report before you edited out all the biased remarks would come to a different conclusion about your methods. Not to revisit last year's discussion but in your determination to embarass Craig you went out of your way to present skewed data which you unethically obtained from Axiom. Your pseudo science is neither fair nor accurate.

They only show that the general assumption that high excursion drivers would suffer from excessive IMD isn't true.
More reasoned people like Seigfried Linkwitz or Poh Hsu would likely disagree with that broad statement which you have attempted to justify with an irregular "experiment", if we can call it that. Unfortunetly it looks like your experiment has been concocted to justify a deficiency with the Ultra driver which is clearly audible. I suggest you reread Peter Marcks comments carefully. Knowing what a dedicated fanboy you are, as noted by AVtalk, pretty well dismisses your objectivity in this regard.
 
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