AVR Power Output Comparison

[RichB]

For $1600, I think the Outlaw 7500 is the best bang for the buck in terms of output.

Yep, this is an amazingly powerful amp that outperforms its advertised power:

Outlaw Audio 7500 5-Channel Power Amplifier Measurements | Home Theater

- Rich

 

[TLS Guy]

Just for fun, I did a little comparison.

AVR Power Output @ 1% THD 2CH 8 ohms/4 ohms/ 5CH 8 ohms (Home Theater Magazine)

$7000 Pioneer SC09: 268.7/523.4/267.3 watts
$5500 Denon 5308: 235.5/339.2/184.6
$5500 AudioControl 1: 119.7/197.8/105.8
$5000 Yamaha Z11: 243.6/387.4/183.1
$5000 Arcam 600: 119.2/207.3/95.5
$4000 NAD 787: 184.5/207.1/149.2
$2000 Rotel 1550: 150.1/235.0/111.4
$2000 Anthem 700: 160.2/221.0/93.7
$1800 Cambridge 650: 174.4/229.9/142.3
$1600 NAD 757: 121.9/181.0/91.2
$1400 Onkyo 1009: 179.5/250.4/131.2
$1400 Integra 50.2: 172.4/259.8/134.1
$1300 Cambridge 551: 111.3/139.8/81.2
$1200 Marantz 6006: 153.2/195.8/92.0
$1200 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103.0
$1200 Yamaha 1020: 129.2/173.0/73.2
$1100 Pioneer SC61: 150.3/247.5/127.7
$1000 Anthem 300: 116.3/165.9/83.4
$1000 Sherwood 977: 145.1/209.9/109.2
$500 HK 1700: 108.9/196.3/39.5
$900 Denon 2313: 152.1/192.5/90.8
$580 Denon 1913: 117.7/151.1/81.7
$550 Yamaha 573: 111.4/126.2/24.9
$500 Sony 1030: 134.7/167.7/90.4
$450 Yamaha 473: 96.5/143.2/Protection Mode
$450 Pioneer VSX42: 118.2/157.8/79.9
$350 Denon 1612: 118.5/141.5/79.8
$330 Pioneer 821: 110.3/150.7/78.1
$230 Sony 520: 141.7/160.6/81.3

If that data is typical, then this speaker impedance is a non issue. On none of those you list does the power available drop into a four ohm load. That would suggest you could drive pretty much any speaker on the market with those receivers without a problem

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If that data is typical, then this speaker impedance is a non issue. On none of those you list does the power available drop into a four ohm load. That would suggest you could drive pretty much any speaker on the market with those receivers without a problem

I think so. I was surprised at how even the $200 Sony could output that much power.

But then I recall that infamous DBT between the $300 Pioneer AVR vs the $20,000 Boulder amp.

 

[M Code]

Just for fun, I did a little comparison.

AVR Power Output @ 1% THD 2CH 8 ohms/4 ohms/ 5CH 8 ohms (Home Theater Magazine)

$7000 Pioneer SC09: 268.7/523.4/267.3 watts
$5500 Denon 5308: 235.5/339.2/184.6
$5500 AudioControl 1: 119.7/197.8/105.8
$5000 Yamaha Z11: 243.6/387.4/183.1
$5000 Arcam 600: 119.2/207.3/95.5
$4000 NAD 787: 184.5/207.1/149.2
$2000 Rotel 1550: 150.1/235.0/111.4
$2000 Anthem 700: 160.2/221.0/93.7
$1800 Cambridge 650: 174.4/229.9/142.3
$1600 NAD 757: 121.9/181.0/91.2
$1400 Onkyo 1009: 179.5/250.4/131.2
$1400 Integra 50.2: 172.4/259.8/134.1
$1300 Cambridge 551: 111.3/139.8/81.2
$1200 Marantz 6006: 153.2/195.8/92.0
$1200 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103.0
$1200 Yamaha 1020: 129.2/173.0/73.2
$1100 Pioneer SC61: 150.3/247.5/127.7
$1000 Anthem 300: 116.3/165.9/83.4
$1000 Sherwood 977: 145.1/209.9/109.2
$500 HK 1700: 108.9/196.3/39.5
$900 Denon 2313: 152.1/192.5/90.8
$580 Denon 1913: 117.7/151.1/81.7
$550 Yamaha 573: 111.4/126.2/24.9
$500 Sony 1030: 134.7/167.7/90.4
$450 Yamaha 473: 96.5/143.2/Protection Mode
$450 Pioneer VSX42: 118.2/157.8/79.9
$350 Denon 1612: 118.5/141.5/79.8
$330 Pioneer 821: 110.3/150.7/78.1
$230 Sony 520: 141.7/160.6/81.3

Thanks for the tabulation...
The measurements were done on an AP cascade system ..
However...
No mention is made or confirmed for the duration of the power output measurements....
Also were the units subject to any type of preconditioning..
Both of these conditions are specified in the FTC specifications.

The shorter the duration, the higher the power output.. Was it the 5 minutes or 5 milliseconds..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Pyrrho]

Thanks for the tabulation...
The measurements were done on an AP cascade system ..
However...
No mention is made or confirmed for the duration of the power output measurements....
Also were the units subject to any type of preconditioning..
Both of these conditions are specified in the FTC specifications.

The shorter the duration, the higher the power output.. Was it the 5 minutes or 5 milliseconds..

Just my $0.02...

Indeed, it makes a good deal of difference how long one can output the power listed. I would not be surprised if many of them were slightly overheating during the testing, so that actually subjecting them to such things for very long may well lead to early failure.

This idea also fits in well with the threads in which people discuss their receivers shutting down when playing loud for long durations. I would not recommend using a receiver that is rated only for 8 ohm use to drive speakers that are really 4 ohms and not overly efficient with bass heavy music played very loudly, especially if the main speakers are being operated as "large" or full range. You might be able to get away with it, but it will depend on all of the particulars involved (e.g., which particular speakers, how loud exactly, what frequencies of music, etc.).

 

[M Code]

Indeed, it makes a good deal of difference how long one can output the power listed. I would not be surprised if many of them were slightly overheating during the testing, so that actually subjecting them to such things for very long may well lead to early failure.

This idea also fits in well with the threads in which people discuss their receivers shutting down when playing loud for long durations. I would not recommend using a receiver that is rated only for 8 ohm use to drive speakers that are really 4 ohms and not overly efficient with bass heavy music played very loudly, especially if the main speakers are being operated as "large" or full range. You might be able to get away with it, but it will depend on all of the particulars involved (e.g., which particular speakers, how loud exactly, what frequencies of music, etc.).

Driving a load resistor is far less complex than driving a loudspeaker..
Certain loudspeakers can burden the amplifier with a very challenging, reactive load...
Here are the differences between the men and the boys...

Just my $0.02..

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the tabulation...
The measurements were done on an AP cascade system ..
However...
No mention is made or confirmed for the duration of the power output measurements....
Also were the units subject to any type of preconditioning..
Both of these conditions are specified in the FTC specifications.

The shorter the duration, the higher the power output.. Was it the 5 minutes or 5 milliseconds..

Just my $0.02...

We can add the power amps to the list and it will show that they don't do much better in 2 channel performance in terms of 4/8 ohm output ratio. According to HTM they use the same procedure to test receivers and amps and that the measurement conditions are consistent from one review to the next.

$7,500 Krell HT standard: 263/475/239X6, 2 ch 4/8 ohm output ratio = 1.806, closest to double down that I can find from the HTM site.

$4,500 Halo A51: 330.6/422.8/238.4X5, 2 ch 4/8 output ratio = 1.279

$2,400 Marantz MM8003: 192.5/289/150.1X5, 2 ch 4/8 output ratio = 1.5

$2,000 Emotiva MPS-1: 187/280/175X6, 2 ch 4/8 ohm output ratio = 1.497

$1,100 Denon 3312: 143.3/225.5/103X5, 2 ch 4/8 ohm output ratio = 1.573

 

[PENG]

Driving a load resistor is far less complex than driving a loudspeaker..
Certain loudspeakers can burden the amplifier with a very challenging, reactive load...
Here are the differences between the men and the boys...

Just my $0.02..

Agree, but in those tests, the men (amps) still dropped from the theoretical 2:1 ratio, when subjected to that 4 ohm resistive load as well as ACD conditions (that I don't care much about). That sort of indicates to me they would also heat up when faced with one of those nasty highly inductive/capacitive load. Thank goodness there aren't too many loudspeakers with too nasty phase angles.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We can add the power amps to the list and it will show that they don't do much better in 2 channel performance in terms of 4/8 ohm output ratio. According to HTM they use the same procedure to test receivers and amps and that the measurement conditions are consistent from one review to the next.

$7,500 Krell HT standard: 263/475/239X6, 2 ch 4/8 ohm output ratio = 1.806, closest to double down that I can find from the HTM site.

$4,500 Halo A51: 330.6/422.8/238.4X5, 2 ch 4/8 output ratio = 1.279

$2,400 Marantz MM8003: 192.5/289/150.1X5, 2 ch 4/8 output ratio = 1.5

$2,000 Emotiva MPS-1: 187/280/175X6, 2 ch 4/8 ohm output ratio = 1.497

$1,100 Denon 3312: 143.3/225/5/103X5, 2 ch 4/8 ohm output ratio = 1.573

Excellent points indeed.

Perhaps if I had experienced an AVR going into protection mode in the past, I may think differently. When I had the Infinity P362 in my family room (18' x 20' x 12'), I played them to 95dB with a cheap $200 Denon at one point and also $200 Pioneer AVR at one point. And the cheap AVRs never ever once went into protection mode.

 

[PENG]

Excellent points indeed.

Perhaps if I had experienced an AVR going into protection mode in the past, I may think differently. When I had the Infinity P362 in my family room (18' x 20' x 12'), I played them to 95dB with a cheap $200 Denon at one point and also $200 Pioneer AVR at one point. And the cheap AVRs never ever once went into protection mode.

What I found amazing was when you told me you paired the Philharmonic 3 with one of your 3312s and was happy with the sound. I guess the trick is 2.1, but still, if I remember right Dennis wan't too concern about people driving his 4 ohm rated Phil 3 with a solid mid range AVR such as the 3312. I am sure he will correct me if I remember wrong.

PS: just fixed a typo, I had 225/5, should have been 225.5

 

[M Code]

We can add the power amps to the list and it will show that they don't do much better in 2 channel performance in terms of 4/8 ohm output ratio. According to HTM they use the same procedure to test receivers and amps and that the measurement conditions are consistent from one review to the next.

Understood..
But WHAT are their amplifier measurement conditions..
1. Preconditioning?? If so, how many channels and time?
2. Time period of actual measurement? 50 milliseconds? 1 minute? 5 minutes?
3. AC line voltage? Is this monitored/maintained @ 120V?
As during the power output testing a large component amplifier may draw 10 Amps vs. an AVR drawing 3 Amps, significant line voltage sag due to high current draw will change its respective power output drastically..
4. What test standards are being used? FTC (73)? FTC (01)? EIA 490? DIN Euro?

Note that I appreciate an objective comparsion for power output specs but would like to know more details about their testing criteria.

Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What I found amazing was when you told me you paired the Philharmonic 3 with one of your 3312s and was happy with the sound. I guess the trick is 2.1, but still, if I remember right Dennis wan't too concern about people driving his 4 ohm rated Phil 3 with a solid mid range AVR such as the 3312. I am sure he will correct me if I remember wrong.

PS: just fixed a typo, I had 225/5, should have been 225.5

It was actually Pure Direct 2.0, not 2.1.

3312 + Phil3 in PD 2.0. Even more impressive?

The Phil3 are like 85dB/2.83V/m + 4 ohm. I can crank them up till kingdom come or until the cows come home w/ just the 3312 by itself.

I think Dennis used a 100WPC amp at the last showroom, which was a huge room.

I really do think power is overrated.

But that's because I have never been able to trigger a protection mode in my life. If I had, I might have a different tune.

Per electrical theory, could the AVR's speaker channel levels have something to do with some of these protection mode triggers?

You guys remember when DenPureSound complained about his Denon 3311 going into protection mode all the time w/ his Klipsch RF83? It made no sense because those speakers are very sensitive. So I asked him about the speaker channel levels. Audyssey had set them to something like -10dB. I told DenPureSound to TURN AUDYSSEY OFF and increase all the speaker channel levels to +0.0. After that, he did not have issue with his 3311 going into protection mode.

I have no idea how to explain that in electrical theory terms.

 

[PENG]

Understood..
But WHAT are their amplifier measurement conditions..
1. Preconditioning?? If so, how many channels and time?
2. Time period of actual measurement? 50 milliseconds? 1 minute? 5 minutes?
3. AC line voltage? Is this monitored/maintained @ 120V?
As during the power output testing a large component amplifier may draw 10 Amps vs. an AVR drawing 3 Amps, significant line voltage sag due to high current draw will change its respective power output drastically..
4. What test standards are being used? FTC (73)? FTC (01)? EIA 490? DIN Euro?

Note that I appreciate an objective comparsion for power output specs but would like to know more details about their testing criteria.

Just my $0.02...

You can read a little, just a little about it here:

Emotiva DMC-1 Preamp/Processor and MPS-1 Multichannel Power Amplifier Manufacturer's Comment | Home Theater

I don't know if they do the preconditioning like stereophile does. By continuous they simply mean using a continuous 1 kHz signal instead of using short bursts. They do fixed the AC input voltage at 120V so voltage drop should not be an issue. I think from torture tests stand point most power amps will be able to withstand their 1 kHz continous signal much longer than the receivers can, but that does not necessarily translate into audible benefits. I am guessing that most receivers will heat up within seconds in their 2 ch 4 ohm and ACD 8 ohm tests while most amps may take minutes to overheat. Few will go beyond minutes though, judging from their transformers size. In the case of some units like the Outlaw 7500, transformer size may be adequate but there will simply be too much heat generated in those torture tests such that even those monster amps will heat up like a base board heater soon enough.

 

[PENG]

It was actually Pure Direct 2.0, not 2.1.

3312 + Phil3 in PD 2.0. Even more impressive?

The Phil3 are like 85dB/2.83V/m + 4 ohm. I can crank them up till kingdom come or until the cows come home w/ just the 3312 by itself.

I think Dennis used a 100WPC amp at the last showroom, which was a huge room.

I really do think power is overrated.

But that's because I have never been able to trigger a protection mode in my life. If I had, I might have a different tune.

Per electrical theory, could the AVR's speaker channel levels have something to do with some of these protection mode triggers?

You guys remember when DenPureSound complained about his Denon 3311 going into protection mode all the time w/ his Klipsch RF83? It made no sense because those speakers are very sensitive. So I asked him about the speaker channel levels. Audyssey had set them to something like -10dB. I told DenPureSound to increase all the speaker channel levels to +0.0. After that, he did not have issue with his 3311 going into protection mode.

I have no idea how to explain that in electrical theory terms.

I have never seen any of my amp's light up either so both of us may have to learn something from RichB and Irvrobinson, or buy some RF83 and re-run Audyssey.

 

[M Code]

You can read a little, just a little about it here:

Emotiva DMC-1 Preamp/Processor and MPS-1 Multichannel Power Amplifier Manufacturer's Comment | Home Theater

I don't know if they do the preconditioning like stereophile does. By continuous they simply mean using a continuous 1 kHz signal instead of using short bursts. They do fixed the AC input voltage at 120V so voltage drop should not be an issue. I think from torture tests stand point most power amps will be able to withstand their 1 kHz continous signal much longer than the receivers can, but that does not necessarily translate into audible benefits. I am guessing that most receivers will heat up within seconds in their 2 ch 4 ohm and ACD 8 ohm tests while most amps may take minutes to overheat. Few will go beyond minutes though, judging from their transformers size. In the case of some units like the Outlaw 7500, transformer size may be adequate but there will simply be too much heat generated in those torture tests such that even those monster amps will heat up like a base board heater soon enough.

Tnx..
Read the link..
However...
Very little info about their test criteria..
Emotiva raised the same point about AC line voltage and current draw. 1 thing I know is that when doing some amplifier projects with D&M, that in their testing lab they actually utlized separate 25 Amp AC lines just for measuring large component amplifiers as they discovered even large AVRs would cause a 4-5 volt drop when doing full power tests.. Though maybe not so crucial for many or a typical home theater system, published power output specifications are technically part of a product's warranty so the brand has to be sure the unit's real performance specifications. Also if the amplifier is sourced from an outside factory the power output specs are part of the puchasing contract..

Just my $0.02...

 

[M Code]

It was actually Pure Direct 2.0, not 2.1.

3312 + Phil3 in PD 2.0. Even more impressive?

The Phil3 are like 85dB/2.83V/m + 4 ohm. I can crank them up till kingdom come or until the cows come home w/ just the 3312 by itself.

I think Dennis used a 100WPC amp at the last showroom, which was a huge room.

I really do think power is overrated.

But that's because I have never been able to trigger a protection mode in my life. If I had, I might have a different tune.

Per electrical theory, could the AVR's speaker channel levels have something to do with some of these protection mode triggers?

You guys remember when DenPureSound complained about his Denon 3311 going into protection mode all the time w/ his Klipsch RF83? It made no sense because those speakers are very sensitive. So I asked him about the speaker channel levels. Audyssey had set them to something like -10dB. I told DenPureSound to TURN AUDYSSEY OFF and increase all the speaker channel levels to +0.0. After that, he did not have issue with his 3311 going into protection mode.

I have no idea how to explain that in electrical theory terms.

EZ explanation...
The audio DSPs' circuit with Audyssey activated its output level was too high and clipping...
Overdriving the main amplifiers input stage even when its input levels were set @ minimum...
So the only thing the amplifier could do is to go into protection..
Kinda the reverse of normal thinking..
In an AVR (or preamp or amplifier or mixer) each electronic stage (preamp input, DSP, DACs, amplifier inputs) can handle a specified minimum and maximum level or their own sweet spot..


Just my $0.02...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have never seen any of my amp's light up either so both of us may have to learn something from RichB and Irvrobinson, or buy some RF83 and re-run Audyssey.

It is our new mission in life to trigger a protection mode.

One time I bought a pair of Yamaha pro speakers w/ a SPL rating of 135dB. I ran Audyssey and the speaker channel levels were set to -12.0dB.

I said, "Screw that" and changed everything back to 0.0dB.

Oh, and DenPureSound also bought a pair of DefTech BP7001SC after he auditioned a bunch of speakers. This time he ran Audyssey XT32 on his 4311. Then he complained to me that the EMO XPA-5 could NOT drive the BP7001SC - the same speakers that I drove w/ a 50WPC Harman Kardon AVR to 95dB volume. Again, I told him to bypass Audyssey and increase the speaker channel levels to 0.0. He was so happy and excited after that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

EZ explanation...
The audio DSPs' circuit with Audyssey activated its output level was too high and clipping...
Overdriving the main amplifiers input stage even when its input levels were set @ minimum...
So the only thing the amplifier could do is to go into protection..
Kinda the reverse of normal thinking..
In an AVR (or preamp or amplifier or mixer) each electronic stage (preamp input, DSP, DACs, amplifier inputs) can handle a specified minimum and maximum level or their own sweet spot..


Just my $0.02...

So the Input Level is the preamp section (speaker channel levels -10dB) and the Output Level is the amp section ?

There was a mismatch w/ Input vs Output? The Input was too low for the Output?

So could this be the main reason why some people experience this protection mode?

And people like me (who never use Audyssey and keep the Input Level HIGH) never experience protection mode?

Here are my speaker channel levels (set to 80dBC):

KEF 201/2 FL+7.0 FR+7.0
B&W 802D2 FL+0.0 FR+0.0
TAD 2201 FL+0.0 FR+0.0
REVEL SALON2 FL+5.0 FR+5.0
LINKWITZ ORION3 FL+5.5 FR+5.5
DYNAUDIO X32 FL+8.0 FR+7.5
FOCAL 826V FL+5.5 FR+6.0
PHILHARMONIC 3 FL+11.0 FR+10.0
ATC SCM7 FL+12.0 FR+12.0

 

[M Code]

Within the AVR's DSP are different circuit blocks that hand off the signal to the next...
(1) Source Inputs > (2) DIR > (3) DSP >(4) DACs > (5) Main Amplifier Input Stage..

If the DSP output level from (3) is too high into (4) DACs even when the Channel Trims are @ minimum the Protection Circuit may be activated. However this is a very rare instance when highly efficient (+91 dB) loudspeakers are used. Also there may be some issue with the Audyssey s/w and/or microphone levels.

Just my $0.02...

 

[RichB]

I have never seen any of my amp's light up either so both of us may have to learn something from RichB and Irvrobinson, or buy some RF83 and re-run Audyssey.

I did by turning the volume knob clockwise to -3.
The Salons did the rest

- Rich