AVR + External Amp VS Seperates

[MysticLint]

Hello,

I have a technical question for the group.

I am about to pull the trigger on a Denon x6800h to run a 7.1.4 (or 6 later) dedicated home theater.
My speakers are not very efficient and like to run in the 4-6 ohm range so they tend to be pretty power hungry (see below). As such I was planning on getting an Outlaw 5000x or 7000x to run my Front L/C/R, surround L/R, and Height L/R. I’m hoping this will help take the load off the 6800h and add some better clarity/separation.

However, I had been under the impression that I could turn off the Denon amp channels and set them to preamp to cut down on noise. I’m now wondering, if I don’t do that for ALL the channels, will that be worth it.

Would I be better off with a Marantz AV8805A + an external amp (OSD Nero XMAX11, BasX A11, Summit A11, or some other combination).

Can I run it all off of the 6800h well without external amp? Is the 6800h much better than the AV8805A? For the same price I could either do a Denon 6800h+Outlaw 7000x OR AV8805A+11 channel amp. Am I tilting at windmills here?

Thank you for your help!

Existing setup:
TV: 77” LG G3 OLED 4k

Center: Elac Uni-Fi UC5
· 3-way speaker design
· 1" soft dome tweeter concentrically mounted in a 4" aluminum cone midrange
· 5-1/4" woofers with dished aluminum cones
· frequency response: 48-35,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· maximum power input: 140 watts

Front L/R: ELAC Uni-Fi FS U5 Slim
· 3-way speaker design
· 1" soft dome tweeter concentrically mounted in a 4" aluminum cone midrange
· three 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofers
· frequency response: 42-25,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· recommended amplifier power: 40-140 watts
·
Surrounds: Elac Uni-Fi BS UF Slim
· 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofer
· frequency response: 46-25,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· maximum power input: 140 watts

Heights: Aperion A5
· 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofer
· frequency response: 90-30,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 6 ohms
· Recommended power 20-80 Watts
· maximum power input: 160 watts

SUB:
· SVS SB 1000 (NOT pro). Once I get the speakers/ AVR/AMP design finished, I’ll probably sell that and get two SVS Pro for the base management. However, that’s a bridge to gross later.

Room is about 19’ deep and 20’ wide, 7’ tall. TV and Main listening position (red dot) are shifted due to space constraints (that’s the only place the TV could go. As a side benefit, the banister rails of the rear stairs act as a fantastic bass trap.

I generally at the listening position dialogue is 65db and perk is 93db. Louder than that is not comfortable. Listening distance for the speakers is about 8.5’ to each speaker. Currently I’m running a 7.1 setup with a Denon S760h at 60/98 volume and that’s perfect for me. Their website says:

75 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 channels driven)

110 watts per channel into 6 ohms (20 Hz -20 kHz, 0.7% THD, 2 channels driven)

Since the 6800h is SIGNIFICANTLY better output I think it could function by itself, but it will work the system pretty hard once I add heights.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello,

I have a technical question for the group.

I am about to pull the trigger on a Denon x6800h to run a 7.1.4 (or 6 later) dedicated home theater.
My speakers are not very efficient and like to run in the 4-6 ohm range so they tend to be pretty power hungry (see below). As such I was planning on getting an Outlaw 5000x or 7000x to run my Front L/C/R, surround L/R, and Height L/R. I’m hoping this will help take the load off the 6800h and add some better clarity/separation.

However, I had been under the impression that I could turn off the Denon amp channels and set them to preamp to cut down on noise. I’m now wondering, if I don’t do that for ALL the channels, will that be worth it.

Would I be better off with a Marantz AV8805A + an external amp (OSD Nero XMAX11, BasX A11, Summit A11, or some other combination).

Can I run it all off of the 6800h well without external amp? Is the 6800h much better than the AV8805A? For the same price I could either do a Denon 6800h+Outlaw 7000x OR AV8805A+11 channel amp. Am I tilting at windmills here?

Thank you for your help!

Existing setup:
TV: 77” LG G3 OLED 4k

Center: Elac Uni-Fi UC5
· 3-way speaker design
· 1" soft dome tweeter concentrically mounted in a 4" aluminum cone midrange
· 5-1/4" woofers with dished aluminum cones
· frequency response: 48-35,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· maximum power input: 140 watts

Front L/R: ELAC Uni-Fi FS U5 Slim
· 3-way speaker design
· 1" soft dome tweeter concentrically mounted in a 4" aluminum cone midrange
· three 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofers
· frequency response: 42-25,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· recommended amplifier power: 40-140 watts
·
Surrounds: Elac Uni-Fi BS UF Slim
· 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofer
· frequency response: 46-25,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· maximum power input: 140 watts

Heights: Aperion A5
· 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofer
· frequency response: 90-30,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 6 ohms
· Recommended power 20-80 Watts
· maximum power input: 160 watts

That is tough one. That 8805 seems very similar to the 7705 and 7706, and bench tests similarly. I have just been burned with a 7705 failing at five years and a 7706 failing at three months. So I have gone with the AV 10

If you are going to go with a receiver then the one you have selected is probably the best available. However, my view is that powering all that processing and then all those amps from one power supply is not sensible engineering. Only one amp in use can achieve its max output and power decreases as amp channels demands increase. So a lot depends on room size and how loud you plan to play the rig.

Amps with all in one case tend to suffer from the same issues. So, I use only two channel amps, but I also have some active crossovers on the fronts and rear surround, so that takes nine two channel amps, and that is an expensive proposition if you do it all at once.

So, without knowing the room and how you intend to use it, it is hard to give you firm advice. Also you make no mention of subs in your equipment list.

Ideally, and I say ideally equipment and room should be designed and built out as a unit, but that is seldom possible. However putting multichannel systems in really unsuitable rooms is a mistake.

The whole process gets to be very expensive. At the end you have to decide what benefit you will get over a good 2.1 or 3.1 system. Two really good speakers and a sub best more poorer ones any day. So, it is very hard to know how to advise you without more details.

Lastly if you plan on using those Atmos heights by placing them on top of other speakers firing at the ceiling, then forget that. That is nonsense.

 

[Trebdp83]

It is never a bad idea to take the load off of a receiver’s internal amps completely or partially to keep it cooler and lengthen its life.

The 8805a does not feature the latest processing and connection ports. If looking at receivers, have a look at the Marantz Cinema 30 as well.

Denon AVR-X6800H vs Marantz Cinema 30: Comprehensive Comparison

Compare the Denon AVR-X6800H and Marantz Cinema 30. Discover the differences in features, specs, performance, and find out which A/V receiver is the best for you.

www.zkelectronics.com

 

[Trell]

The whole process gets to be very expensive. At the end you have to decide what benefit you will get over a good 2.1 or 3.1 system. Two really good speakers and a sub best more poorer ones any day. So, it is very hard to know how to advise you without more details.

Depends how much "poorer" they are, really, and then there is the room along with placement that dominates. As like most other things, speakers fairly quickly enters into the diminishing return territory. AVP, AVR, DACs and amplifiers much earlier, though.

As for 2.1 vs 3.1: If you sit far enough on the side of MLP the dialogue is not anchored to the screen but coming from the speaker closest to you. That sucks real hard for me that often sit at the side when causally watching TV, something that I experienced with Netflix coding 2.0 content as 5.0 (thus no Dolby surround). If you always sit in front of the TV 2.1 is great, otherwise 3.1 is much better.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My vote is to use the x6800 by itself first.

There are a lot of opinions. But based on my experience, just try the x6800 first. Then, you can always add the amp later if you want.

One of my clients bought the KEF R11 + matching Center + bookshelf + Yamaha A4A. He was going to also buy an ATI amp later. However, after several years of only using the A4A, he decided his speakers did not need an external amp.

 

[Trell]

My vote is to use the x6800 by itself first.

There are a lot of opinions. But based on my experience, just try the x6800 first. Then, you can always add the amp later if you want.

One of my clients bought the KEF R11 + matching Center + bookshelf + Yamaha A4A. He was going to also buy an ATI amp later. However, after several years of only using the A4A, he decided his speakers did not need an external amp.

Agree, though he didn't write the size of his room or how loud likes to listen so perhaps extra amps sooner than later?

Edit: He did write the size but it's not a big room.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Agree, though he didn't write the size of his room or how loud likes to listen so perhaps extra amps sooner than later?

Sure, sooner is fine also. If he is afraid, always start with lower volume and gradually increase. But the X6800 seems to be a very nice power supply.

 

[Trell]

Sure, sooner is fine also. If he is afraid, always start with lower volume and gradually increase. But the X6800 seems to be a very nice power supply.

I think so too, but it's an AVR, and before you know it they need a couple of extra 20A outlets.

 

[Trebdp83]

My vote is to use the x6800 by itself first.

There are a lot of opinions. But based on my experience, just try the x6800 first. Then, you can always add the amp later if you want.

One of my clients bought the KEF R11 + matching Center + bookshelf + Yamaha A4A. He was going to also buy an ATI amp later. However, after several years of only using the A4A, he decided his speakers did not need an external amp.

You know Yamahas run cooler than Denon/Marantz units.

 

[Trell]

You know Yamahas run cooler than Denon/Marantz units.

Some clarification of which generations your talking about as well as some statistics would be nice.

 

[MysticLint]

That is tough one. That 8805 seems very similar to the 7705 and 7706, and bench tests similarly. I have just been burned with a 7705 failing at five years and a 7706 failing at three months. So I have gone with the AV 10

If you are going to go with a receiver then the one you have selected is probably the best available. However, my view is that powering all that processing and then all those amps from one power supply is not sensible engineering. Only one amp in use can achieve its max output and power decreases as amp channels demands increase. So a lot depends on room size and how loud you plan to play the rig.

Amps with all in one case tend to suffer from the same issues. So, I use only two channel amps, but I also have some active crossovers on the fronts and rear surround, so that takes nine two channel amps, and that is an expensive proposition if you do it all at once.

So, without knowing the room and how you intend to use it, it is hard to give you firm advice. Also you make no mention of subs in your equipment list.

Ideally, and I say ideally equipment and room should be designed and built out as a unit, but that is seldom possible. However putting multichannel systems in really unsuitable rooms is a mistake.

The whole process gets to be very expensive. At the end you have to decide what benefit you will get over a good 2.1 or 3.1 system. Two really good speakers and a sub best more poorer ones any day. So, it is very hard to know how to advise you without more details.

Lastly if you plan on using those Atmos heights by placing them on top of other speakers firing at the ceiling, then forget that. That is nonsense.

I updated the original post to show room layout and sub.


Room is about 19’ deep and 20’ wide, 7’ tall. TV and Main listening position (red dot) are shifted due to space constraints (that’s the only place the TV could go. As a side benefit, the banister rails of the rear stairs act as a fantastic bass trap.

I generally at the listening position dialogue is 65db and perk is 93db. Louder than that is not comfortable. Listening distance for the speakers is about 8.5’ to each speaker. Currently I’m running a 7.1 setup with a Denon S760h at 60/98 volume and that’s perfect for me. Their website says:

75 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 channels driven)

110 watts per channel into 6 ohms (20 Hz -20 kHz, 0.7% THD, 2 channels driven)

Since the 6800h is SIGNIFICANTLY better output I think it could function by itself, but it will work the system pretty hard once I add heights.

The height speakers are actually going in at 30 degrees for an Auro 3D style design (I just prefer that). However, 30 degrees overlaps with atmospheric specification range.

I’m trying to keep the Reciever + Amp combo to about $4,000ish. I’ve got a discount from Denon which would make the x6800h $3,000 and the Outlaw 7000x is $1000.

However, I’m also looking at a factory refurbished Marantz AV8805A for $2,500 and a 11 Channel amp for ~$2,000. $4k to 4.5k is kinda my budget. With that in mind, I want to make sure I don’t immediately get buyers remorse either way. I am looking at this as my set home theater for the next 10 years. I’ve got an opportunity to splurge now and after that I’m not looking to chase the audiophile dragon much further for a while. At most I’d add +2 height speakers and maybe swap out for 2x SVS Pro subs.

Honestly, I am probably leaning 65% towards the Denon 6800h, 35%Marantz AV8805A.
Hope that helps clarify.

 

[Trebdp83]

Some clarification of which generations your talking about as well as some statistics would be nice.

You know they’ve abandoned scientific study around this joint lately.

 

[Trell]

You know they’ve abandoned scientific study around this joint lately.

Some have, but for sure not all. In another thread, to be unnamed, you've wrote (to paraphrase) that a configuration error could be a cause of the "optimistic" claims of the Marantz AV 10. Me? The dude got a new toy and won't admit to any misconfiguration, and his previous AVP are now classified as "junk" after extolling their virtue for years as not AVR.

 

[PENG]

I updated the original post to show room layout and sub.


Room is about 19’ deep and 20’ wide, 7’ tall. TV and Main listening position (red dot) are shifted due to space constraints (that’s the only place the TV could go. As a side benefit, the banister rails of the rear stairs act as a fantastic bass trap.

I generally at the listening position dialogue is 65db and perk is 93db. Louder than that is not comfortable. Listening distance for the speakers is about 8.5’ to each speaker. Currently I’m running a 7.1 setup with a Denon S760h at 60/98 volume and that’s perfect for me. Their website says:

75 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 channels driven)

110 watts per channel into 6 ohms (20 Hz -20 kHz, 0.7% THD, 2 channels driven)

Since the 6800h is SIGNIFICANTLY better output I think it could function by itself, but it will work the system pretty hard once I add heights.

The height speakers are actually going in at 30 degrees for an Auro 3D style design (I just prefer that). However, 30 degrees overlaps with atmospheric specification range.

I’m trying to keep the Reciever + Amp combo to about $4,000ish. I’ve got a discount from Denon which would make the x6800h $3,000 and the Outlaw 7000x is $1000.

However, I’m also looking at a factory refurbished Marantz AV8805A for $2,500 and a 11 Channel amp for ~$2,000. $4k to 4.5k is kinda my budget. With that in mind, I want to make sure I don’t immediately get buyers remorse either way. I am looking at this as my set home theater for the next 10 years. I’ve got an opportunity to splurge now and after that I’m not looking to chase the audiophile dragon much further for a while. At most I’d add +2 height speakers and maybe swap out for 2x SVS Pro subs.

Honestly, I am probably leaning 65% towards the Denon 6800h, 35%Marantz AV8805A.
Hope that helps clarify.

The X6800H has much better DSP and DAC IC(chips) than the AV8805A. The benefits will likely be audible but subtle in direct mode, in DSP modes it should be audibly better in more significant ways. The 8805A does have better build quality.

So my vote is for the x6800h plus a 3 channel power amp for the LCR. The AVR may be fine for the surround and heights depending on their distances.

To take full advantage of the X6800H's excellent specs and anticipated measurements, you may want to consider a better one than the Outlaw 5000 or 7000.

 

[Trell]

The X6800H has much better DSP and DAC IC(chips) than the AV8805A. The benefits will likely be audible but subtle in direct mode, in DSP modes it should be audibly better in more significant ways. The 8805A does have better build quality.

So my vote is for the x6800h plus a 3 channel power amp for the LCR. The AVR may be fine for the surround and heights depending on their distances.

To take full advantage of the X6800H's excellent specs and anticipated measurements, you may want to consider a better one than the Outlaw 5000 or 7000.

As you've written before is that implementation do matter for "transparency" but otherwise I do wholeheartedly agree that DSP can and do really change the sound, but that is really a preference.

 

[Trebdp83]

Don’t lean toward the AV8805A at all. Get the new features and warranty of the X6800H if it comes down to just those two units. I’d still consider the Marantz Cinema 30 and you will need an external amp for at least two channels anyway if you want 7.1.6 at some point down the road for Auro 3D or Dolby Atmos speaker configurations.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You know Yamahas run cooler than Denon/Marantz units.

I heard when you use the Economy mode in the Denon's, the operating temp is much cooler.

 

[Trell]

I heard when you use the Economy mode in the Denon's, the operating temp is much cooler.

It is, and I use "Auto ECO" so above -30dB it turns off. Much/most of our listening is below that.

Edit: Let me add that is for the amps and as far as I know it does nothing if anything about DSP, chipsets and so forth that generates substantial heat.

 

[kini]

Hello,

I have a technical question for the group.

I am about to pull the trigger on a Denon x6800h to run a 7.1.4 (or 6 later) dedicated home theater.
My speakers are not very efficient and like to run in the 4-6 ohm range so they tend to be pretty power hungry (see below). As such I was planning on getting an Outlaw 5000x or 7000x to run my Front L/C/R, surround L/R, and Height L/R. I’m hoping this will help take the load off the 6800h and add some better clarity/separation.

However, I had been under the impression that I could turn off the Denon amp channels and set them to preamp to cut down on noise. I’m now wondering, if I don’t do that for ALL the channels, will that be worth it.

Would I be better off with a Marantz AV8805A + an external amp (OSD Nero XMAX11, BasX A11, Summit A11, or some other combination).

Can I run it all off of the 6800h well without external amp? Is the 6800h much better than the AV8805A? For the same price I could either do a Denon 6800h+Outlaw 7000x OR AV8805A+11 channel amp. Am I tilting at windmills here?

Thank you for your help!

Existing setup:
TV: 77” LG G3 OLED 4k

Center: Elac Uni-Fi UC5
· 3-way speaker design
· 1" soft dome tweeter concentrically mounted in a 4" aluminum cone midrange
· 5-1/4" woofers with dished aluminum cones
· frequency response: 48-35,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· maximum power input: 140 watts

Front L/R: ELAC Uni-Fi FS U5 Slim
· 3-way speaker design
· 1" soft dome tweeter concentrically mounted in a 4" aluminum cone midrange
· three 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofers
· frequency response: 42-25,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· recommended amplifier power: 40-140 watts
·
Surrounds: Elac Uni-Fi BS UF Slim
· 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofer
· frequency response: 46-25,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 4 ohms
· Recommended minimum power 40 Watts
· maximum power input: 140 watts

Heights: Aperion A5
· 5-1/4" aluminum cone woofer
· frequency response: 90-30,000 Hz
· sensitivity: 87 dB
· Nominal impedance: 6 ohms
· Recommended power 20-80 Watts
· maximum power input: 160 watts

SUB:
· SVS SB 1000 (NOT pro). Once I get the speakers/ AVR/AMP design finished, I’ll probably sell that and get two SVS Pro for the base management. However, that’s a bridge to gross later.

Room is about 19’ deep and 20’ wide, 7’ tall. TV and Main listening position (red dot) are shifted due to space constraints (that’s the only place the TV could go. As a side benefit, the banister rails of the rear stairs act as a fantastic bass trap.

I generally at the listening position dialogue is 65db and perk is 93db. Louder than that is not comfortable. Listening distance for the speakers is about 8.5’ to each speaker. Currently I’m running a 7.1 setup with a Denon S760h at 60/98 volume and that’s perfect for me. Their website says:

75 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20 Hz - 20 kHz, 0.08% THD, 2 channels driven)

110 watts per channel into 6 ohms (20 Hz -20 kHz, 0.7% THD, 2 channels driven)

Since the 6800h is SIGNIFICANTLY better output I think it could function by itself, but it will work the system pretty hard once I add heights.

The electronics has the least affect on the sound. So, spending $4K+ on it doesn't make much sense. You could get a Marantz Cinema 50 or Denon 3800 for around $1500. At least then you'll get the better version of Audyssey.