AV123 or SVS?

[craigsub]

oh i know you've delivered hundreds ... i was talking about a lot of "forum goers" posting and talking about MFW's like they had it themselves.

good luck on getting back on ex-stock. let me know if you've got some ex-stock.



actually we were thinking avtalk / hometheatershack type of tests ... not necessarily them, but groundplane tests with the standard, FR, Power Compression, THD, Max output, etc. i would trust you guys even if you do these tests yourselves. last i checked audioholics was planning a standardized type of subwoofer tests, maybe you should submit your sub to them for testing (read: Mark Sanfilippo).

Having been involved in about 500 of these so called "objective" tests in the past 10 years, I always find it rather humurous when guys opine how "accurate" they are.

Here, for example, is one graph of the response curve of the New PB12-NSD:

And here is another response curve of the same subwoofer:

They are not exactly close, are they ?

 

[craigsub]

Craig has that panel of judges. . .don't forget about that panel. . .

--Regards,

I don't know what your problem is, but it was not a panel of "judges". It was a panel of listeners which never promised anything but an honest effort at a blind listening test.

In fact, "Vaughan", here is an exact quote about the panel of listeners:

All listening us done under blind conditions. The panel of listeners include several very experienced audiophiles, some of whom also design and build high end pro audio speakers. The subwoofers were each placed in the identical room position, and eq'ed to have a fairly flat (3 dB window) response curve from 18 Hz and up, when the subwoofer was able to go that "low".

And a quote about the approach we took, in regards to the testing done here:

The purpose of this information is to help people to quickly look at a variety of subwoofers and get a pair of scores, some performance numbers, and some listening tests describing the characteristics of each subwoofer. Hopefully, this will provide some assistance when researching for a subwoofer purchase. There will be times that a lower rated sub will work better for someone than a higher rated sub. For example, size, or output, in a lower rated sub may make a difference. Listening preferences may also make a difference. If slam is valued over extension, some subs excel at the 30-60 Hz slam. For others, extension will be the most important issue.

If you would like to have a meaningful discussion about this issue, and if you also have the intelligence for this discussion, please, let me know.

Your use of the phrasing "panel of judges" (a little hint, Vaughan, the word judge was one YOU concocted) suggests you have an inability to read, so I won't hold my breath that you are capable of intellectual discourse. However, there is hope for a miracle.

 

[ThA tRiXtA]

I know the battle for the best sub (read: flavor of the "insert random length of time here") will forever rage on, but considering many things come in to play including bias, favortism and subjective opinion on sound quality I think we can all agree that some measurements are better than no measurements whatsoever... and that I (and I am sure many others) are patiently waiting for a linear frequency response (or lack there of) test for the MFW-15.

It kind of makes me wonder why AV123 hasn't put this thing to bed yet and disseminated at least one for external testing, unless they have something to hide what can it hurt?

If it turns out well in their favor it can only help sales.

 

[mike c]

I don't know what your problem is, but it was not a panel of "judges". It was a panel of listeners which never promised anything but an honest effort at a blind listening test
....snip...
Your use of the phrasing "panel of judges" (a little hint, Vaughan, the word judge was one YOU concocted) suggests you have an inability to read, so I won't hold my breath that you are capable of intellectual discourse. However, there is hope for a miracle.

as much as his name sounds like vaughn vaughan doesn't have english as his native language (just like me) it could just be a vocabulary thing, and no bad things intended.

 

[mike c]

They are not exactly close, are they ?

agreed, in fact, in that shack thread ... i have asked why the FR isn't flat to 18.

i wonder what conditions the svs FR was measured in

 

[craigsub]

I know the battle for the best sub (read: flavor of the "insert random length of time here") will forever rage on, but considering many things come in to play including bias, favortism and subjective opinion on sound quality I think we can all agree that some measurements are better than no measurements whatsoever... and that I (and I am sure many others) are patiently waiting for a linear frequency response (or lack there of) test for the MFW-15.

It kind of makes me wonder why AV123 hasn't put this thing to bed yet and disseminated at least one for external testing, unless they have something to hide what can it hurt?

If it turns out well in their favor it can only help sales.

Perhaps you mean a raw Frequency response sweep ?

Or pounding it with a 20 Hz Sinewave ?

Or another round at 32 Hz ?

 

[croseiv]

Having been involved in about 500 of these so called "objective" tests in the past 10 years, I always find it rather humurous when guys opine how "accurate" they are.

Here, for example, is one graph of the response curve of the New PB12-NSD:

And here is another response curve of the same subwoofer:

They are not exactly close, are they ?

I think it would be very useful to know if the same measuring methodology was used to generate each plot?

 

[craigsub]

I think it would be very useful to know if the same measuring methodology was used to generate each plot?

From SVS's site, about their measurements:

Unsmoothed, quasi-anechoic frequency response: Measured with high resolution instrumentation (1/60th octave) via "ground plane" technique, outdoors, at two meters' distance, a minimum of 70 feet from reflective boundaries, .

Hometheatershack also uses the 2 meter GP measuring model, so yes, the same methodology was used.

 

[croseiv]

So do you think one measurement is more accurate than the other?

 

[craigsub]

So do you think one measurement is more accurate than the other?

What I think is this: All these "objective" measurements need to be carefully considered. For example, someone should/could easily hear the difference between a subwoofer with the response shown by SVS vs. that shown in the HTS forum.

Yet, they are response curves for the same subwoofer.

 

[croseiv]

What I think is this: All these "objective" measurements need to be carefully considered. For example, someone should/could easily hear the difference between a subwoofer with the response shown by SVS vs. that shown in the HTS forum.

Yet, they are response curves for the same subwoofer.

Actually, what I'm getting at here is could there be some sort of difference or "change" that occurred between the first measurement made by SVS vs the second measurement made by Ilkka (as in amp performance or woofer performance)?

 

[craigsub]

Actually, what I'm getting at here is could there be some sort of difference or "change" that occurred between the first measurement made by SVS vs the second measurement made by Ilkka (as in amp performance or woofer performance)?

They were both the second subwoofer, called the NEW PB12-NSD, with the new amp.


The answer to your question is no.

 

[croseiv]

I'm surprised at how different the two measurements are. As you already said, such a difference would be quite audible. It looks like two different subs altogether, and quite interesting really. That said though, the PB12-NSD seems to be a good performer for the price.

 

[craigsub]

I'm surprised at how different the two measurements are. As you already said, such a difference would be quite audible. It looks like two different subs altogether, and quite interesting really. That said though, the PB12-NSD seems to be a good performer for the price.

The PB12-NSD is a terrific subwoofer - especially the "New" NSD. It is very close to the old Ultra in sound quality (I know, it's just one man's opinion, plus his "panel of judges" ).

Of course, we are only basing this on direct comparisons between the Ultra-12 and the new NSD, which means it should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt.

Afterall, 7 guys measuring and listening to a subwoofer cannot POSSIBLY be as informed as someone reading graphs and translating results from those graphs.

 

[Sheep]

Having been involved in about 500 of these so called "objective" tests in the past 10 years, I always find it rather humurous when guys opine how "accurate" they are.

Here, for example, is one graph of the response curve of the New PB12-NSD:

And here is another response curve of the same subwoofer:

They are not exactly close, are they ?

You've just rebutted your own post. They're not exactly the same. Even the testing area was different. You can't expect it to a be a perfect copy.

But, I will sacrifice a small discrepancy so I don't have to read (43-40). What kind of useless rating system is that?

"The subwoofer got 43. Not 43 out of 50, no no, just 43. There is no basis for these numbers to be compared and contrast to, just the other subwoofers around it."

SheepStar

 

[croseiv]

"The subwoofer got 43. Not 43 out of 50, no no, just 43. There is no basis for these numbers to be compared and contrast to, just the other subwoofers around it."

SheepStar

I see the rating system as open ended, which is a good thing because we don't know what is yet to come out. Also, I think is is great to have the subs rated against each other. So the is a basis for comparison is the set of subs that have been included in the group.

 

[craigsub]

You've just rebutted your own post. They're not exactly the same. Even the testing area was different. You can't expect it to a be a perfect copy.

But, I will sacrifice a small discrepancy so I don't have to read (43-40). What kind of useless rating system is that?

"The subwoofer got 43. Not 43 out of 50, no no, just 43. There is no basis for these numbers to be compared and contrast to, just the other subwoofers around it."

SheepStar

Sheep - It is pretty clear you have not followed the entire concept of ground plane testing. It has been said 100's of times that a properly contructed GP session should yield very similar results.

Since you are up to your usual inane posting, let us see if we can assist you here.

We will start with a simple question: What does a 2 meter GP (2 pi) session emulate, in terms of measuring accuracy ?

A. A 1 meter Free Space, or 4 pi measuring methodology ?
B. A 2 meter Free Space, or 4 pi measuring methodology ?
C. A 2 Meter measuring session in your Dad's Garage ?
D. None of the above.
E. All of the above.

Next ... There was an original standard bearer of 50-50 with the Velodyne DD-18.

On second thought, forget it. You either lack the intelligence to understand the ratings system, or you are being deliberately obnoxious. Either way, there are about 50,000 people who understand it, and perhaps 6 that don't.

Congrats on being in an elite group.

Rebutted my own post ? You really lack in reading comprehension.

 

[craigsub]

For the record, I took our PB12-NSD (NEW) out for a GP session tonight, and got this response curve:

I will leave it to the forum members to decide whether "my" graph is closer to the one on HTS, or to SVS's measurements.

 

[mike c]

holy crap. 16-17hz at 100db?

i'm excited now!

 

[craigsub]

holy crap. 16-17hz at 100db?

i'm excited now!

Mike - This is using the Quicksweep function. Don't confuse this for a compression sweep. It is merely a response curve. Quicksweep will always show a very high level of output. The max output on a sinewave for the PB12 was 99 dB.