AV10

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know a lack of bass has been a pretty common complaint with AV10 owners…

It’s been an issue forever with most Room EQ because they aim to make the frequency response linear and FLAT, including the BASS.

Back when I owned the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, after I applied Audyssey, I manually increased all the speaker trims by +5.0 and turned on Audyssey Dynamic EQ Bypass L/R with Offset Zero.

This EQ’ed the bass to boost it. The reason for increasing the trims is to increase the magnitude of the bass boost. That was my QUICK way of getting impactful bass because I was too lazy to learn and spend hours and days on learning about Room EQ and all that.

 

[Trell]

It’s been an issue forever with most Room EQ because they aim to make the frequency response linear and FLAT, including the BASS.

Back when I owned the Denon AVP-A1HDCI, after I applied Audyssey, I manually increased all the speaker trims by +5.0 and turned on Audyssey Dynamic EQ Bypass L/R with Offset Zero.

This EQ’ed the bass to boost it. The reason for increasing the trims is to increase the magnitude of the bass boost. That was my QUICK way of getting impactful bass because I was too lazy to learn and spend hours and days on learning about Room EQ and all that.

For FR flatness it depends on the room EQ used and what options they have. The default for Audyssey is a downwards sloping FR response (at least for non-bass), but some people wasn’t more bass (me too).

My Genelec SAM monitors using GLM, though, goes for flat. Also changeable afterwards with a tone curve. Personally I use Dynamic Loudness that my RME ADI-2 DAC FS has along with tone controls when needed.

 

[Jack N]

Trebdp83 – 1) I’ve tried all the crossover settings from 40 to 100. It didn’t have any impact on the deep bass. 2) For placement they’re located along walls but they’re not all the way in the corners. They’re maybe 2ft away. There’s wall insulation and/or acoustic treatments nearby so there’s probably a little bit of corner loading going on, but not much. 3) I’ve tried both directional bass and standard. At present I’m using directional.

William Lemmerhirt – Being able to develop a new curve would be great! That follows right along the lines I was thinking of. Seems the most logical. Are you talking about that $20 thing from Marantz? Or are you talking about MultEQ-X?

Danzilla31 – Because of the layout of the theater, moving the subs is not an option, as much as I would like it to be. I’m stuck with them where they are. I thought of a null too, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of one that big. I guess I shouldn’t rule it out though. I’ll have to get REW going and see what I can find.

AcuDefTechGuy – That’s an interesting approach! Original thinking. I like it. Gotta think about that for a minute.

 

[TLS Guy]

Trebdp83 – 1) I’ve tried all the crossover settings from 40 to 100. It didn’t have any impact on the deep bass. 2) For placement they’re located along walls but they’re not all the way in the corners. They’re maybe 2ft away. There’s wall insulation and/or acoustic treatments nearby so there’s probably a little bit of corner loading going on, but not much. 3) I’ve tried both directional bass and standard. At present I’m using directional.

William Lemmerhirt – Being able to develop a new curve would be great! That follows right along the lines I was thinking of. Seems the most logical. Are you talking about that $20 thing from Marantz? Or are you talking about MultEQ-X?

Danzilla31 – Because of the layout of the theater, moving the subs is not an option, as much as I would like it to be. I’m stuck with them where they are. I thought of a null too, but I don’t think I’ve ever heard of one that big. I guess I shouldn’t rule it out though. I’ll have to get REW going and see what I can find.

AcuDefTechGuy – That’s an interesting approach! Original thinking. I like it. Gotta think about that for a minute.

Have you tired the rig with Audyssey off? I have three systems and Audyssey ruins all three systems. I have absolutely nothing good to say about it. I think actually all those so called room corrections are based on faulty science. Few rooms are really bad, and you can tell that because when you talk to someone in the room they sound fine. The issue I am certain is speakers having a poor off and on axis correlation. Good speakers are still actually quite rare. I am certain that of you have a fairly decent room, and that is most and good gear, you have absolutely no need of room correction. Frankly I resent having to pay for it. I think room correction should be an optional extra on AVRs and AVPs. I personally resent having to pay for this nonsense.

 

[Danzilla31]

I agree on trying to run a manual setup without any room correction and seeing if that improves your bass response. At the least it's one more variable you can eliminate from what is causing this

Also getting out REW and seeing what is going on could be a good idea since a lot of the usual tips and tricks we use that you have tried aren't working

 

[Jack N]

I totally agree. With Audyssey making the system worse instead of better, I don’t like the idea that I paid money for it to do that. I could do a better job manually if the processor had an equalizer that went a couple more octives further down into the bass region. I’m going to try that additional cal app from Marantz and get REW going to see what I can come up with.

 

[isolar8001]

I totally agree. With Audyssey making the system worse instead of better, I don’t like the idea that I paid money for it to do that. I could do a better job manually if the processor had an equalizer that went a couple more octives further down into the bass region. I’m going to try that additional cal app from Marantz and get REW going to see what I can come up with.

I don't miss Audyssey at all....if you look over on AVS, the number of complaints about Audyssey clipping off the low bass are overwhelming.
Have you tried the Audyssey app ?
Back when I used Audyssey, it helped cure many of the issues.

Not fond of Dirac either...ran it finally a few weeks ago and hated what it did....I can do better manually.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't miss Audyssey at all....if you look over on AVS, the number of complaints about Audyssey clipping off the low bass are overwhelming.
Have you tried the Audyssey app ?
Back when I used Audyssey, it helped cure many of the issues.

Not fond of Dirac either...ran it finally a few weeks ago and hated what it did....I can do better manually.

You should not really need an Eq if the speakers are OK.

I just use distance and level settings and set the crossovers. I don't need to make a huge production out of it. I do use omnimic to verify the situation, but it does not contradict just listening either.

 

[PENG]

I totally agree. With Audyssey making the system worse instead of better, I don’t like the idea that I paid money for it to do that. I could do a better job manually if the processor had an equalizer that went a couple more octives further down into the bass region. I’m going to try that additional cal app from Marantz and get REW going to see what I can come up with.

A lot of people like it though, so I guess to some extent it is a matter of personal taste/choice. Objectively speaking, there is, or at least should be, not much argument that using room correction stuff could result in more accurate, or neutral if you prefer, sound quality that is a little closer than the real thing.

Here's one example of mine, based on one of my two channel stereo system.
The red trace is with Dirac Live turned off, clearly, with Dirac on, you get a smoother curve but again, I am sure a lot of people would prefer the sound quality of the red curve, may be they like that huge room gain at around 50 Hz and even the suck out in the 60-120 Hz as it may make the sound thinner, that could be taken as more details, who knows.. it is personal preference that matters to a lot of people.

For those who don't like, or think they need room corrections, it is possible that they could choose gear that could save them money, but it may not be either because in some cases, such as Denon and Marantz, they came with Audyssey that may not cost them very much any more (still going to be cost, just likely to be much smaller now than years ago) after including them for so many, it could be like paying off a mortgage, but then I am just guessing.



Edit: I should also be clear that whether room correction works well (meaning doing more good than harm) or not, and to what extent, will depends on one's room acoustic conditions. In general, one can expect more improvements, again objectively speaking only, if the room really needs "correction".

TLSGuy doesn't seem to have the need for room correction/equalization, so I assume he has speakers that have, as he alluded to, good on/off axis performance, and he likely also has rooms that don't do much bad things to the bass and/or he also has room acoustic treatment applied.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My ears were ringing. ...

Early tinnitus showing up?

 

[TLS Guy]

A lot of people like it though, so I guess to some extent it is a matter of personal taste/choice. Objectively speaking, there is, or at least should be, not much argument that using room correction stuff could result in more accurate, or neutral if you prefer, sound quality that is a little closer than the real thing.

Here's one example of mine, based on one of my two channel stereo system.
The red trace is with Dirac Live turned off, clearly, with Dirac on, you get a smoother curve but again, I am sure a lot of people would prefer the sound quality of the red curve, may be they like that huge room gain at around 50 Hz and even the suck out in the 60-120 Hz as it may make the sound thinner, that could be taken as more details, who knows.. it is personal preference that matters to a lot of people.

For those who don't like, or think they need room corrections, it is possible that they could choose gear that could save them money, but it may not be either because in some cases, such as Denon and Marantz, they came with Audyssey that may not cost them very much any more (still going to be cost, just likely to be much smaller now than years ago) after including them for so many, it could be like paying off a mortgage, but then I am just guessing.



Edit: I should also be clear that whether room correction works well (meaning doing more good than harm) or not, and to what extent, will depends on one's room acoustic conditions. In general, one can expect more improvements, again objectively speaking only, if the room really needs "correction".

TLSGuy doesn't seem to have the need for room correction/equalization, so I assume he has speakers that have, as he alluded to, good on/off axis performance, and he likely also has rooms that don't do much bad things to the bass and/or he also has room acoustic treatment applied.

I did have the luxury with this room, in that I could optimize the dimensions. I did not use room treatment in the traditional sense, but the shelving and contents deaden the rear wall and prevent slap echo.

One big issue is baffle step compensation. In the AV room all the base layer speakers have variable BSC. The side surrounds only have two settings though, the other speakers have infinitely variable BSC. The levels of BSC are totally different in this room compared to the last. The room required a lot more. That was confirmed by measurement and listening. This is my view is a big argument in favor of active speakers, as it makes this adjustment easy.

In addition, a lot of what people perceive as deep bass is not. Most of the really important bass range and the principle output of many instruments is well above sub range. A lot of speakers with small drivers have trouble keeping decent output in a lot of rooms. These small drivers are also as a rule in slimmer cabinets, and so more BSC is required and to a higher frequency. Just cranking a sub does not make for realistic reproduction. When I hear other systems this bass gap is often glaring. I am not fooled by a sub too loud. My AV room speakers are totally integrated designs which is not the usual situation to say the least, but one that I believe carries huge advantages. So the front three are a seamless design form 20 Hz to 20 KHz. But my experiments tell me that getting the range of the fundamentals of most instruments right is crucial. As I have said many times 400 Hz is not midrange is is bass and sounds like it. If you play a speaker cut off anywhere between 400 and 500 Hz, it sounds as if it is only producing bass which it is. Speech is almost unintelligible.

I think one of the biggest blind spots of audio enthusiasts, and I have to say speaker design teams is not knowing the actual perceived sounds of the various audio bands, and their power requirements.