lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
see, if I said to you, "sorry you want to include yourself in the children's camp" I would get banned.

But you insult me yet again and it's fine.

Honest, are we both not HiFi enthusiasts?



So why the need to ridicule fellow hobbyists?
LOL you crack me up, and remind me of this guy.
old man yells.jpg


Your interpretation as an insult is self-inflicted, as is your campaign with puritanical language. Language is colorful, it adds texture and depth....like good music on your favorite hi-fi setup can. Get over yourself and stop defending the audiophool crowd if you don't like being associated with it. Sell your Audioquest cables and set yourself free! :)
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
panteragstk
I have a wife that I would wager is in the normal range when it comes to her reaction to audio. No one really knows what normal is, but, I think she would fit that general description.

Knowing what her reaction would be to expanding my audio system, I decided to convert a room in our home to a dedicated listening room. I didn't ask. I gave her a room to do with what she wanted and I took one for me. (all the kids are gone). Having a dedicated space let me buy the Salk Songtowers and put as much audio stuff where I wanted it as I could afford.

We had a discussion about speakers during the process and she was firmly of the mindset that said "this is 2017. speakers don't need to be big. you can get all the sound you need with little tiny ones and you only need a few". When I got the Salks set up, we had some listening sessions together and she did admit they were pretty nice. But, she still thinks I'm nuts for even having an interest.
That's pretty much what I heard most women say. They couldn't care less about how things sounded. It didn't even register. Until I did a demo in our theater room. Changed plenty of minds with that.

We even set up a Bose system someone returned (Bose was pissed) next to our Klipsch system. It was all the BIG klipsch floor standing speakers with their dipole surrounds. The sub was a big Velodyne. System was pretty good. Anyway, people always think Bose sounds great in their 5 square feet demo space, but when we demoed the same system in the theater we got the same reaction. "See these small speakers sound awesome" until we turned on the big boy system. Then they finally heard what we meant. No going back after that.
 
eljr

eljr

Audioholic General
Nope. Not that at all. They'll spend $10k on a TV, video components, installation, a bit of automation to make it work easier, but won't even consider spending a third on a half way decent audio system.

I've seen it first hand. I had a customer way back when buy 3 TVs with the cheapest being $2500. When I asked about an audio system he said he didn't want to spend more than $300. That happened a lot more often than I ever thought it would have.

I found that unless they had a dedicated room (even the richest folks I dealt with didn't) their wife usually won out because "speakers are big and ugly" or too expensive.

I'll never understand that way of thinking.

or... maybe audio is not important that customer?

I have some rather expensive audio and tv's, if ever on, are totally outdated.

You would have stereotyped me wrong.

--------------------------

You tend to make very broad assumptions on a tiny sample group.

This is not unusual but can be very misleading.

May even be a bit of confirmation bias at play?

hey, I still think you are an admirable person, seriously. But you can always hone your reasoning skills by avoiding fallacies.

because right now, I really can't understand your way of thinking. ;) (although I do and know why)

------------------

you consider yourself a hi-fi enthusiast?
 
eljr

eljr

Audioholic General
LOL you crack me up, and remind me of this guy.
View attachment 21832

Your interpretation as an insult is self-inflicted, as is your campaign with puritanical language. Language is colorful, it adds texture and depth....like good music on your favorite hi-fi setup can. Get over yourself and stop defending the audiophool crowd if you don't like being associated with it. Sell your Audioquest cables and set yourself free! :)

Amazing.

A music enthusiast as myself not welcome on an audio board.

Truly amazing.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
No that's incorrect. The inductance on one cable as nothing to do with the inductance in another cable.


Nope, separating the conductors in a cable will increase the inductance and decrease the capacitance.


Yes, inductance matters most in loudspeaker cables.
But high total capacitance matters only in output stages (both interconnect and power amps) that can't deal with it.
Do you know what Inductance is?

You are unfortunately factually incorrect. Inductance describes an electromagnetic effect of (at least) two conductors interacting.

"The inductance on one cable as[sic] nothing to do with the inductance in another cable." If there is only one conductor, there is no inductance. If there are (at least) two cables, inductance can be created.

.Inductance in one cable REQUIRES a current in a nearby cable, and separating them reduces the mutual inductance. If both cables are current carrying, then they both will induce inductance in the other cable, depending on their proximity to each other.

Inductance requires at least two conductors, at least one of which is carrying current. The physical distance between them is fundamental to the effect, and is reduced as distance increases.

Inductance is unrelated to capacitance (increases or decreases in inductance do not affect capacitance), except insofar as capacitance is also distance-related.
 
Last edited:
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Cost plus, usually. IF the actual dealer cost is used in the POS terminal, they're reducing the profit they think they're getting. Advertising for that product, display space, shipping (if the minimum order isn't reached) etc all come into play WRT the real cost. Wire, on the manufacturer to warehouse level, costs a fraction of the retail price and every time someone handles it, they make money. This is one reason I could never sell high end cables- one example is AudioQuest 6' HDMI- it retails for $1500.00 and I could never look myself in the eye if I were to sell one.
If you're referring to a POS terminal in a typical Big Box reseller, the value listed as "dealer cost" if the staff member can access that value, will not normally be the actual dealer cost, but simply the value from the "Confidential Dealer Price List" at the lowest volume purchase level.

To determine actual cost, you need to know the volume purchased, the inventory level vs each prior invoice (because two purchases can be at different cost), the shipping cost, whether an early payment discount was applied, and it's useful to know how long the item has been in inventory.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
or... maybe audio is not important that customer?

I have some rather expensive audio and tv's, if ever on, are totally outdated.

You would have stereotyped me wrong.

--------------------------

You tend to make very broad assumptions on a tiny sample group.

This is not unusual but can be very misleading.

May even be a bit of confirmation bias at play?

hey, I still think you are an admirable person, seriously. But you can always hone your reasoning skills by avoiding fallacies.

because right now, I really can't understand your way of thinking. ;) (although I do and know why)

------------------

you consider yourself a hi-fi enthusiast?
I didn't assume anything. I'm going off of experience I have with people. Seems like you tend to project your own assumptions onto others and do more assuming than anyone I've encountered in quite some time.

I've read numerous responses of yours to other people's posts and it always seems like you read into things or just plain miss the point someone is trying to make and either post something very unnecessarily negative or just plain insulting. It's not necessary and you should re-read some of the things you find insulting and realize they have nothing to do with you in any way.

It's very odd behavior and I am not able to understand how you seem to get hidden messages out of other people's posts that are somehow a slight to you.

Let me put my last post plainly. No ambiguity, no room for interpretation (you seem to be able to hear or read what you want so I'm probably wasting my time, but I'll try anyway).

People I and other salesman/installers have encountered either don't care about audio (as you said) or do, but think it should be cheaper than it is.

There are others that don't think that way and will spend money.

That simple enough?
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Samurai
LOL you crack me up, and remind me of this guy.
View attachment 21832

Your interpretation as an insult is self-inflicted, as is your campaign with puritanical language. Language is colorful, it adds texture and depth....like good music on your favorite hi-fi setup can. Get over yourself and stop defending the audiophool crowd if you don't like being associated with it. Sell your Audioquest cables and set yourself free! :)
LMAO ................... too funny !
 
R

roadwarrior

Audioholic
or, maybe, someone shopping luxury goods is less restrained by price?
Many in that class are also in debt up to their eyeballs. It's not really always a lack of restraint that has them shopping luxury goods. It's also class acceptance as much as anything.


Salespeople keep contact info and send personal greeting cards for birthdays, holidays...
My mother's insurance agent and the lady who sold me a $200 chair at a mid level furniture store do that as well. More a sign of just being a good salesperson who knows it's a long not short game to play.

If an event is coming up, they will call each in their customer base with a personal invitation. Ask how the wife is, were they out on their boat over the weekend....
Again, basic follow-up techniques using their up cards for reference while on the phone(did it most every day.) Not unique to luxury goods other than possibly the size of that boat.



The hard part in luxury goods is finding the well-heeled customer and nurturing a relationship not in getting him to spend.
I'm confused. If you're not trying to get him to spend then what does it matter if he's well heeled or not? Someone who's had the smarts to make that kind of scratch know full well why luxury sales associates are sniffing around them and it's not because they are looking for a bro-mance trust me although I did build some close relationships in retail it was mostly with folks who I actually just liked and who shared my sense of humor. While higher end retail does emphasize these things more heavily it's by no means exclusive to them. It's actually a vanishing art less related to the cost of the product sold but more to the current overall lack of sales mentoring and training techniques.
 
R

roadwarrior

Audioholic
They get in the way of audiophiles being able to afford actual music content to enjoy.
^^^ This. The money I saved on Monoprice and KnuKonceptz cables got me the 50 greatest albums of all times by Rolling Stone magazine to play and enjoy on my setup. Not all music enthusiasts have deep pockets so if were making it about pay to play my vote is for the content not the cabling.
 
R

roadwarrior

Audioholic
Amazing.

A music enthusiast as myself not welcome on an audio board.
The only one who keeps saying you're not welcome here seems to be you and from reading just a few of your posts you seem more than equipped with the necessary linguistic tools capable of defending your positions.

Those people with the money to blow on expensive cables sprinkled with pixie dust isn't really why most here get so hot and bothered. It's the younger generation that doesn't have the same disposable income that often get fly trapped into moving some of their limited budget to these cables and before they know it they've spent the cost of a mid range subwoofer on interconnects that could have gotten them some room treatments and a calibrated USB audio mic instead. Not all Audiophiles are Audiophools but all Audiophools tend to self identify themselves as Audiophiles who then tend to get painted with a broad brush but that doesn't make the former any less ridiculous. I consider myself a music enthusiast as well but I don't feel a need to defend the indefensible and illogical just because we share the same hobby. Calling snake oil snake oil isn't going to make me enjoy my setup any less.

Truly amazing.
Not really. More so just the internet and the by products of an audio site started by a couple of audio and electrical engineers who love music and movies. To me that's amazing and awesome all rolled into one !
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Do you know what Inductance is?

You are unfortunately factually incorrect. Inductance describes an electromagnetic effect of (at least) two conductors interacting.

"The inductance on one cable as[sic] nothing to do with the inductance in another cable." If there is only one conductor, there is no inductance. If there are (at least) two cables, inductance can be created.

.Inductance in one cable REQUIRES a current in a nearby cable, and separating them reduces the mutual inductance. If both cables are current carrying, then they both will induce inductance in the other cable, depending on their proximity to each other.

Inductance requires at least two conductors, at least one of which is carrying current. The physical distance between them is fundamental to the effect, and is reduced as distance increases.

Inductance is unrelated to capacitance (increases or decreases in inductance do not affect capacitance), except insofar as capacitance is also distance-related.
The fact is, there are self inductance and mutual inductance. A single conductor all by itself in fact is subject to the self inductance effect as long it carries a.c. current. If the conductors are long enough, you have to consider both self inductance and mutual inductance. For audio cables, the runs are typically too short to worry about either, practically speaking.
 
S

Speedskater

Audioholic Chief
Do you know what Inductance is?
You are unfortunately factually incorrect. Inductance describes an electromagnetic effect of (at least) two conductors interacting.
"The inductance on one cable as[sic] nothing to do with the inductance in another cable." If there is only one conductor, there is no inductance. If there are (at least) two cables, inductance can be created.
.Inductance in one cable REQUIRES a current in a nearby cable, and separating them reduces the mutual inductance. If both cables are current carrying, then they both will induce inductance in the other cable, depending on their proximity to each other.
Inductance requires at least two conductors, at least one of which is carrying current. The physical distance between them is fundamental to the effect, and is reduced as distance increases.
Inductance is unrelated to capacitance (increases or decreases in inductance do not affect capacitance), except insofar as capacitance is also distance-related.
You are mingling the ideas of wires and cables.

wire = one conductor/core.
Cable = two or more conductors/cores.

What you are correctly thinking of is wires.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You are mingling the ideas of wires and cables.

wire = one conductor/core.
Cable = two or more conductors/cores.

What you are correctly thinking of is wires.
Even a single wire has self inductance, resistance and capacitance, all of negligible values if short.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
Even a single wire has self inductance, resistance and capacitance, all of negligible values if short.
Peng, I love your replies. You are so detailed. I wonder if you ever see a forest.....I would bet only the trees. :) I love your posts.

LET'S GET THIS THREAD ABOUT CABLES BACK ON TRACK !
We have wandered around a bit and I think this thread needs to get back to bitchin' about cables.
A good friend of mine sent me this article today. It gives me hope that there are other survivors out there in the internet universe that also don't believe in expensive cables. These folks also apparently believe in doing your own audio listening tests. That alone means I gotta read their article. Maybe you might give it a look too.

GOOD ARTICLE EVALUATING 8 DIFFERENT AUDIO CABLE VENDORS

What I took from this article was a couple of good points that we could all do more of.
1. They did their own tests. That's a heck of an idea. Not always practical, but a heck of an idea
2. They spent a fair amount of time listening to music as their test. Not lab measurements.
3. They explained their test methods. While not overly scientific, at least they told us what they did
4. In the end, they chose a cheap, good performing cable because there was no audible difference
that either tester could determine between the cheap but adequately sized cable and the big bucks ones

I liked the article because someone did a test between my cables, the Blue Jean cables, and 7 other sets of cables costing up to $8,000.
 
S

Speedskater

Audioholic Chief
I like the conclusion in that article:
Instead, we determined the winner based on build quality and price. It basically boiled down to which speaker cable had the best build quality to price ratio.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

When it comes to short but large speaker cables:
a] There are lots of differences in materials and build quality.
b] There are lots of differences in price.
c] There are lots of differences in visual appearance.
d] There are little or no audible differences.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Slumlord
I like the conclusion in that article:
Instead, we determined the winner based on build quality and price. It basically boiled down to which speaker cable had the best build quality to price ratio.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

When it comes to short but large speaker cables:
a] There are lots of differences in materials and build quality.
b] There are lots of differences in price.
c] There are lots of differences in visual appearance.
d] There are little or no audible differences.
THEY liked that set, but someone else would disagree because the results, which amount to something similar to "I like the blue ones", differs from their own.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Field Marshall
THEY liked that set, but someone else would disagree because the results, which amount to something similar to "I like the blue ones", differs from their own.
what I like about their methodology is they took the same route the audiophools take: listening tests.
If they took the lab measurement tests route, the audiophools would just react with the same reaction they do today: you have to hear the difference. The listening test route is subjective as it can get to be sure.
But if you do it honestly, I would expect a result similar to what they came up with.

The other thing that's noteworthy is that this comes from a "high end audio" forum. The guy who sent this to me said the folks on this forum loves the expensive stuff and the exotic stuff. He thought the authors would get blowback for sure. Or crickets.

One of the things I wondered about was the anonymity of the 8 cable vendors, with the exception of the winner. I think that's due to the risk of getting kicked off a forum for publishing a test or review where a vendor gets low marks. I don't know that, but, I've heard members here on the AH telling me their story of getting booted from another forum by spelling out unpopular things about a favored forum vendor.

I just thought it was a fun piece to read. Definitely not audio science. Subjective as it gets.
I thought it was fun though
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
what I like about their methodology is they took the same route the audiophools take: listening tests.
If they took the lab measurement tests route, the audiophools would just react with the same reaction they do today: you have to hear the difference. The listening test route is subjective as it can get to be sure.
But if you do it honestly, I would expect a result similar to what they came up with.

The other thing that's noteworthy is that this comes from a "high end audio" forum. The guy who sent this to me said the folks on this forum loves the expensive stuff and the exotic stuff. He thought the authors would get blowback for sure. Or crickets.

One of the things I wondered about was the anonymity of the 8 cable vendors, with the exception of the winner. I think that's due to the risk of getting kicked off a forum for publishing a test or review where a vendor gets low marks. I don't know that, but, I've heard members here on the AH telling me their story of getting booted from another forum by spelling out unpopular things about a favored forum vendor.

I just thought it was a fun piece to read. Definitely not audio science. Subjective as it gets.
I thought it was fun though
:):):)

...aaaaaaahaa... I see where you're getting with this. Some might consider this to be just a tad of a foul play, he, he. You're saying it's THEIR method, but the result would be accepted HERE on AH?? You dirty rat (as Don Corrado Prizzi would say:))
 

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