Audio Critic's Ten Biggest Lies

[Rickster71]

Put water heater issue to bed?

Question:
Are there any problems associated with wrapping hot water tanks (e.g., rusting of tanks, overheating)? Should new hot water tanks be wrapped?

Answer:
There appears to be no hard evidence to either substantiate or refute any claim that wrapping hot water heaters with insulation will directly cause the tank to rust and fail prematurely. Our Energy Library searched but found no studies to support any rusting claims. I also talked to some plumbers I know and they hadn’t heard of any substantiated cases of tank degradation from wrapping hot water heaters. Failing a study to support the claim, let’s look at it logically.

Rusting of the tank is one problem and its longevity is another. Rust is usually caused by excessive moisture. Why should insulation around a dry tank cause excessive moisture? There are really only two ways for moisture to get under the insulation wrap: through condensation or a leak of some kind. Vapor in the air reaching the dew point and condensing happens on cool surfaces that are below the dew point – and this won’t happen at the elevated temperatures you find under the insulation wrap. The other possibility is a small leak in the heater or one of the plumbing joints coming into the heater. If there is a slow leak in the tank or water is getting under the tank, then, yes, a jacket could hold in more moisture and cause premature rust. Obviously, rusting is not desirable. But unless the rust on the outside of the tank is quite severe, it would have a minimal effect on the actual performance of the water heater. The tank itself should certainly not rust any more with a jacket than without, and, again, the rust would have to be very severe to have a noticeable effect on performance or longevity.

EnergyIdeas Clearinghouse has been the most comprehensive, technical resource that Pacific Northwest business, industry, government and utilities use to implement energy technologies and practices. EnergyIdeas is operated and managed by the Washington State University in Olympia, Washington.
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[musicgioni]

MDS, you want scientific proof a component sounds different than another? Buddy I think you and others that think like you are MISSING the point! These components are making SOUND. Your ears should be the ultimate judge after all is said and done. Meassurements only show part of the picture. If a component measure good but still sound like crap then it is crap.

And where did you read I have 100 dollar per foot interconnects buddy? I see that you are just another one of these people answering without reading first. I do not have and I will NEVER have stupid multi hundred dollar interconnects and I agree that their validity is null. I have never been able to hear a difference changing interconnects, speaker cables or power cables. But if you think it is my preconditioned brain that made me to hear differences between my Threshold and the Plinius then I rest my case! What about differences between a Baldwin a Yamaha or a Steinway grand piano? What about the differences between a Stradivari and a "run of the mill" violin? Can you just measure it too? Can you not hear these differences? The you are DEAF buddy! Still they are just strings vibrating and some wood that hold them together...Have you ever heard that even the varnish that Stradivari used have an effect on how their violins sound? Can you measure this freind? Do you also dispute the validity of this? Have you ever heard a Stradivari playing side by side to a Guarneri? No deofferecne again eh?

If you had read my previous posts I posted that I am a scientist with the a MSc in Physics (specialized in solid state) so please do not tell me that you believe in scientific research...I have made this my way of life. Still though, I have ears and I can listen. When I put the Plinius in my system I had to reconfigure the crosover of my speakers to tame them slightly so that the bass was not overwhelming with the new amp...I did not dream that, the Plinius went that much lower in bass. Still I am absolutely agreeing with you guys when it comes to cables, pseudo sceintific tweaks and long break in times. I agree in measurments and scientiic proof about the stability and design of a product but I also believe that the ultimate measure of a component should be OUR OWN ears. Like when talking about food the ultimate judge should be our own taste buds and not an analysis of the recipe!

I will never accept that all "well designed" components sound the same and the resistance to this FACT from some people surprises me. You call me preconditioned but it is you that is the preconditioned one. I sense "hatry" or envy from your own message and it reads like you think I am an rich ludite trying to justify his actions....This could never be further form the truth buddy. I just love my music and want it presented in the best possible way. I will never accept the stupid arguments that acoustic and electronic science and engineering hit their zenith decades ago (as claimed by the audio critic) and that CD sound is "perfect sound forerever". If I can hear a difference then it exists. If I can not then it is of no consequence to me....

Why did I feel the need to change my amp? Because I knew that my speakers where just too good for the Threshold. Because I love going to concerts and I felt that some qualities of that system where not even close to the original thing (neither will it ever be...but we can get closer if we try...).

Have you ever owned something really good buddy or are you just attacking out of ignorance and envy? Are you attacking others for having a better car than you do saying that the driving a Mercedes or driving a Chevy are about the same? Do you really believe your own lies? Please do LISTEN man and you will hear the truth sooner or later....

Cheers

 

[Adam]

musicgioni, you make good points. I believe that this hobby should be all about enjoyment. So, if you find something that you like and believe that it's better than something else, then for you - it is better. I agree that one cannot take perception out of the equation because perception is how we experience our environment.

In theory, amplifiers could be designed that would have no sonic impact on the signals that they are amplifying. In my experience, though, humans rarely approach theoritical perfection in design. So, again, I agree with you.

I think that the arguments that get made around this forum about amplifiers sounding the same are due in part to (a) the knowledge that some people get fooled by marketing or other factors outside of the sound and pay more for amps than they need to, and (b) a lot of people here haven't auditioned a large number of amps. We can easily perceive that two equal things are different, depending on the context. Check out this thread from today (especially the link from zhimbo...excellent). So, some people here probably believe that others get fooled by this when it comes to amps. I know that I believe that because I've seen some audio salesman in action. However, without actually hearing your set-up, I think that it would be foolish to claim that there is no sonic difference in your system with different amps hooked up.

People seek measurements as a foundation for an objective means of comparing two or more things to each other. With the enormous number of available amps and the widely varying costs for those amps, that desire makes sense to me. It would be very time consuming and difficult to audition even a fraction of what is available. People want the best that they can afford, so they try to find a way of deciding which component is right for them. To some extent, this can be done. However, with the amount of subjectivity involved in personal preference, it can't get us all of the way there. My approach? Buy something...if I like it, I don't compare it to other things - that way, I stay happy.

 

[WmAx]

What about differences between a Baldwin a Yamaha or a Steinway grand piano? What about the differences between a Stradivari and a "run of the mill" violin? Can you just measure it too?

Yes, you can measure the differences. The differences in such instruments can be analyzed by recording the device in question by excitation of the 'whole' instrument with a controlled stimulus in an anechoic chamber. Analysis of the recorded signal with FFT will reveal different harmonic distributions relative to the fundamental(s).

.Have you ever heard that even the varnish that Stradivari used have an effect on how their violins sound? Can you measure this freind? Do you also dispute the validity of this? Have you ever heard a Stradivari playing side by side to a Guarneri? No deofferecne again eh?

If it makes a difference, it would be measurable by difference. But such difference measurement would be difficult if not impossible to execute: you would need two identical violins with different finishes. Due to a multitude of variables, this is likely impossible. One can chip away a flake of the varnish coat and analyze it in a lab to determine it's physical effects as a mass loading object on the wood. But it is doubtful it has any appreciable effect unless it is of substantial thickness, or it contains a chemical that changes the properties of the wood itself.

I will never accept that all "well designed" components sound the same and the resistance to this FACT from some people surprises me. You call me preconditioned but it is you that is the preconditioned one. I sense "hatry" or envy from your own message and it reads like you think I am an rich ludite trying to justify his actions....This could never be further form the truth buddy. I just love my music and want it presented in the best possible way. I will never accept the stupid arguments that acoustic and electronic science and engineering hit their zenith decades ago (as claimed by the audio critic) and that CD sound is "perfect sound forerever". If I can hear a difference then it exists. If I can not then it is of no consequence to me....

You claim to be of a scientific camp. Yet, it seems that you ignore the principles of your professional life when it comes to your personal one.

-Chris

 

[musicgioni]

WM AX, Chris thanks for your post. Friend, can you please let me know how do I ingore the principles of my professional life in my personal one? Do you dispute that after all is said and done the ultimate measure of any isnturment or components that makes sound should be LISTENING?

I really do not see how you came to the conclusion that I do not apply my professional experiences to real life... I would like some more clarification on this.. I am very skeptical about all things in life and espesially of thinks as subjective as taste be it for food, sound or sight...

I see that this topic is more of a topic of discaussion and quarel or stma vebting than a way to get to the truth.

Cheers

Gerry

 

[Highlander]

If I can hear a difference then it exists.

Can you see a difference in the colour of the squares on the checker board? If you can, well, actually you can't because they're identical. Your mind is easily fooled.

Are you still sure there's a difference if you can hear a difference?

With acknowledgement to Zhimbo for link.

 

[Adam]

Can you see a difference in the colour of the squares on the checker board? If you can, well, actually you can't because they're identical. Your mind is easily fooled.

Are you still sure there's a difference if you can hear a difference?

With acknowledgement to Zhimbo for link.

I'm like the stealth poster around here...

 

[WmAx]

I really do not see how you came to the conclusion that I do not apply my professional experiences to real life... I would like some more clarification on this.. I am very skeptical about all things in life and espesially of thinks as subjective as taste be it for food, sound or sight...

I see that this topic is more of a topic of discaussion and quarel or stma vebting than a way to get to the truth.

Cheers

Gerry

I base my preliminary conclusion upon your failure to mention/specify a valid methodology used to determine differences existed, at an audible threshold, in the components you mentioned.

Just listening to them in a sighted situation is not a reliable means of difference detection with objects of relatively close performance as identified by measured parameters in relation to known audible thresholds, such as amplifiers not being driven into clipping/distortion(as opposed to something with drastic differences where a controlled comparison would be pointless. Example: Typical $30 GPX boombox compared to a state of the art studio reference monitor system, or a 2 watt amplifier compared to a 100 watt amplifier on a standard 88db/1watt/1meter speaker at a 2-3 meter listening distance with normal volume levels.).

-Chris

 

[musicgioni]

Audioholic Samurai, Adam thanks fro your comments. I am not just trying to make any points man except to share with you guys my personal experiences and help open some eyes to the truth that apart of any pseudo science mambo jumbo we just do not all there is to know about a lot of topics and in our case about measuring components so that we can predict their exact acoustical response by measurments alone. About 20 years ago I too fell for the CD lie "perfect sound forever" and I even gave away and sold part (thankfully a small one) of my treasured LP collection replacing them with CDs. In the years to come I noticed my habbits of listening to music becoming similar to my habbits of watching comeercial TV: I could just NOT sit down and listen to a whole CD like I used to do when listening to LPs anymore. Being a scientist before all I got into "research" why was this happening to me and I learned about listener's fatique and a bunch of other interesting ideas. Please note that this was with THE SAME Stereo rig I had for years... One day I dusted my old Systemdek turntable and I found the joy of music again! NO freind I am not trying to make a point or EVEN start a discussion on LP vs CD...I am just trying to make this point:

The CDs measure perfect compared to any LP. Still they sound stale compared... This from a guy tha owns about 2800 CDs vs about 1500 LPs. YEs the CD sound has imporved substantially since its begginings but why should it do so if it was "perfect" from the start? And why do about all my LPs sound so envolving compared to most CDs even being so inferior in measurments? This is the point I am trying to make! Measurments DO help to give us a decent picture of a component but only LISTENING will ever show us how our own God given "measuring" insurments will react to the sound...

Have a good one

Gerry

 

[musicgioni]

Highlander this is funny buddy but don't you think that our whole perception is just like an "optical illusion"? Then each of us perceives the world in his own different way. Can you talk to a dog about color? The same could be for all of us...so please if I do perceive a change who are you to tell me other wise? (philosophically speaking of course...).

A very entertaining comment indeed.

 

[musicgioni]

WMaX did you ever stopped to think that maybe I was just not in the mood to discuss measuring methodologies when I made my comments? Are you really serious about the comparison betwwen a state of the art amp, a boombox and a 2 wpc amp?

Of course when you narrow the scope o f the experiment so much I guess even a bike will feel the same as a Honda GoldWing moving you from point A to point B 30 inches away. Please get sereious friend and understand that music is a much more dynamic entity and no boombox or flea power amp will move any seriuous speaker and amke reproduce music's crecendos and dynamics. We are not talking sitting 3 feet away from any speaker listeing to low level of who knows what here! We are talking of a system that can really reproduce a good facsimile of what one hears at a concert hall or at a jazz bar or rock concert. This is the real test that you should be talking about and NO 2watts will never cut it for any real music enthousiast that loves to hear his music at realistic levels.

Cheers

Gerry

 

[musicgioni]

OOOPPPSS I forgot to comment something else: Why are we all getting things so seriously when we are at forum where a wrong comment of someone about water heateers prompts a whole "in depth" disucssion from members about...WATER HEATERS!!!! And this in a suppesedly serious forum about the differecnes of music reproduction equipment...

I rest my case guys!

Cheers to all and enjoy the music!

 

[Adam]

And this in a suppesedly serious forum about the differecnes of music reproduction equipment...

Who gave you that idea? Read some of the threads, my friend. We're not always serious!

 

[WmAx]

WMaX did you ever stopped to think that maybe I was just not in the mood to discuss measuring methodologies when I made my comments? Are you really serious about the comparison betwwen a state of the art amp, a boombox and a 2 wpc amp?

Re-read my last post, as based on this reply, you did not pay much attention to it.

-Chris

 

[Adam]

Re-read my last post, as based on this reply, you did not pay much attention to it.

Agreed. He missed the point on that one.

 

[Highlander]

...don't you think that our whole perception is just like an "optical illusion"? Then each of us perceives the world in his own different way.

Of course we each of us perceive the world differently. That's not the issue. The issue is that you wrote:

If I can hear a difference then it exists...

You may perceive that you heard something but that doesn't mean it exists.

Can you talk to a dog about color?

One can talk to a dog about anything one wishes. Whether or not it'll listen to you is another thing altogether.

...so please if I do perceive a change who are you to tell me other wise?

Perceive anything you wish. Just don't declare it exists unless it does.

 

[Adam]

You may perceive that you heard something but that doesn't mean it exists.

Hmmm. I think that perception causes existence.

 

[Highlander]

I think that perception causes existence.

In the mind, always. In reality, not necessarily ever.

 

[Adam]

In the mind, always. In reality, not necessarily ever.

Ahhh, but as humans, we experience reality by means of our minds. So, our perceptions make things real to us.

 

[Highlander]

...but as humans, we experience reality by means of our minds. So, our perceptions make things real to us.

Not as a rule. A straw may be perceived as bent if placed in and viewed through a glass of water yet you and I both know the straw isn't bent in reality.