Ascend Acoustic Ribbon Towers

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I don't know much about Cory personally, but damn that dude is one of the best metal and rock singers ever.
Absolutely!
I love Corey, but he definitely has a few demons. I’m actually more a Stone Sour fan than Slipknot. So good.
Seems like Joey got screwed but I can’t remember all of it.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I didn't even know Dave left the band, lol.

Joey tho, it does sound like they did him dirty. The whole story still isn't super clear tho. I heard it was something to do with Joey allegedly having severe drug abuse issues, then he comes out and talks having a rare and genuine medical condition that he had to battle through and they kicked him to the curb instead of standing by him. Cory seems like he could be that way too man. Fook.
Yeah after Dave left, when they were recording see you on the other side Terry Bozzio recorded most of the album, but had some other contributors too.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Seems they've gone a bit back to their roots. Nice.
Yeah, fo sho!
Listening to FFDP’s cover of blue on black(Kenny Wayne Shepard) RN.
Another good band.
Funny story(kinda). Jeremy spencer who used to be the drummer of FFDP had to leave for back issues. My lifelong friend works with his replacement Charlie Engen. Here’s pretty sick. I followed him on Instagram, and later found out the connection.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, fwiw, it comes very highly recommended by yours truly. I know we share tastes so...
Yeah, ray is a fukkin beast!!! And with head, the dimension is there too. Here’s a little fun... in a music store no less. Not long after he was hired iirc.

Wow! He's fun to watch too! Some flair to his style. Drums are mic'd pretty well too. Did you see he lost a stick right at the end of "Blind"? He snatched another one out of the holster pretty quick and it was easy to miss.

Ohhhh... you know who he reminds me of? Dave Weckl!
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Wow! He's fun to watch too! Some flair to his style. Drums are mic'd pretty well too. Did you see he lost a stick right at the end of "Blind"? He snatched another one out of the holster pretty quick and it was easy to miss.

Ohhhh... you know who he reminds me of? Dave Weckl!
Dave weckl. But hits like a sledgehammer!
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Yeah, fo sho!
Listening to FFDP’s cover of blue on black(Kenny Wayne Shepard) RN.
Another good band.
Funny story(kinda). Jeremy spencer who used to be the drummer of FFDP had to leave for back issues. My lifelong friend works with his replacement Charlie Engen. Here’s pretty sick. I followed him on Instagram, and later found out the connection.
Big fan of FFDP.

I'm waiting to get a haircut after months and Volbeat is playing. I had sort of forgotten about them. Pretty good.

My dad is actually a big FFDP fan. He wanted me to go to a concert in Austin, but it was a Wednesday and I wasn't in town...stupid job no longer have made me miss stuff. Don't have that issue now luckily.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Big fan of FFDP.

I'm waiting to get a haircut after months and Volbeat is playing. I had sort of forgotten about them. Pretty good.

My dad is actually a big FFDP fan. He wanted me to go to a concert in Austin, but it was a Wednesday and I wasn't in town...stupid job no longer have made me miss stuff. Don't have that issue now luckily.
Nice! Cool Dad. I like Volbeat too. From Denmark I think. They must be recording or something. Been quiet.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Nice! Cool Dad. I like Volbeat too. From Denmark I think. They must be recording or something. Been quiet.
I've listened to Volbeat. They're not too bad.

So since I'm sitting here jamming out I downloaded a couple different free spl apps on my phone and measured with my volume at -15.

571_copy_576x1024.jpeg
570.jpeg


If those are even close I'm getting a lot more than 85 dB at MLP with the volume at 0...
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I've listened to Volbeat. They're not too bad.

So since I'm sitting here jamming out I downloaded a couple different free spl apps on my phone and measured with my volume at -15.

View attachment 37168View attachment 37167

If those are even close I'm getting a lot more than 85 dB at MLP with the volume at 0...
So what’s with the graph on the first one? Looks like a sweep!
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
Those SPL apps are decent, but can't replace the real thing IMHO.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'd sure as hell hope you're getting more than 85dB with the volume at 0....especially with a music source (except vinyl perhaps). Maybe I missed something in catching up and trying to bypass the band chat, but why not just use your measurement mic and REW spl meter function rather than buying one?
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Hopefully the volume isn’t so loud that it’s damaging your hearing. I need to get an SPL measurement on my listening position too. I have one, just need a 9volt battery. :)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I'd sure as hell hope you're getting more than 85dB with the volume at 0....especially with a music source (except vinyl perhaps). Maybe I missed something in catching up and trying to bypass the band chat, but why not just use your measurement mic and REW spl meter function rather than buying one?
All this time I assumed an 85 dB average at MLP when the volume was pegged and it's a lot fuckin higher than that.

Far as REW goes it's a pain dragging all my crap out and setting it up. I ordered a spl meter yesterday.

Good lord, I guess I still like it loud.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
You know, this really changes my perspective. I might actually qualify as "need" a separate amp... I think I have been hitting 100+ dB at my seat.

It also makes me realize I'm not doing my ears any favors, tho at least when I turn it up like that it's only for a couple minutes at a time.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I've listened to Volbeat. They're not too bad.

So since I'm sitting here jamming out I downloaded a couple different free spl apps on my phone and measured with my volume at -15.

View attachment 37168View attachment 37167

If those are even close I'm getting a lot more than 85 dB at MLP with the volume at 0...
Consider the phone app worthless unless you have calibrated it (usually they have a way to adjust/offset them).
Once you have done that, they can be useful as a quick 'n dirty, but since you have a meter on the way, if there is some where to tuck it near the LP you'll never miss the app!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Consider the phone app worthless unless you have calibrated it (usually they have a way to adjust/offset them).
Once you have done that, they can be useful as a quick 'n dirty, but since you have a meter on the way, if there is some where to tuck it near the LP you'll never miss the app!
Yeah, I didn't do any calibrating. Just a couple quick and dirty readings. I'm a little curious how close they are tho. I'll find out later today.

I just checked tracking and it looks like my meter will be here by the end of today.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Oh! I did get some replies from Dave on the forums. This was after he watched the videos I made of the extreme excursion:

"There are basically two ways woofers produce sound, wavelengths that are within the piston range of the woofer, and wavelengths that are out of the piston range (shorter wavelengths). Within the piston range of a woofer, in order for the woofer to reproduce this - the cone most move forward and back no different than a piston. For shorter wavelengths - the woofer cone itself resonates (out of the piston range). When a typical transducer (a woofer, for example) produces soundwaves that are out of the piston range - these wavelengths become extremely directional (also known as beaming).

One of the major design goals of the Sierra Tower was to come as close as mechanically possible to matching the exceptionally wide and linear off-axis response of the 70-20xram ribbon tweeter, which is designed to easily handle a low crossover point (which we take advantage of). In order to achieve this goal, we used smaller diameter woofers with very high excursion and crossover points optimized to keep the woofers operating within their piston range.

The pro's to this are obvious, very wide and linear horizontal dispersion which is clearly visible in the horizontal polar response (no blooming, wide dispersion etc.). This is a key performance attribute.

The con's to this is that the woofers can exhibit a lot of excursion depending on the source material, especially at very loud volume levels. Is this harmful or will it shorten the longevity of a woofer - no, not in the least provided you are not bottoming the woofers. In fact, that movement is what helps keep the voice coils cool.

You will absolutely know when you bottom a woofer as you will hear a noticeable "bang" and these woofers are built for extreme excursion. Again, woofers are designed to operate like a piston, sometimes you will see a lot of movement depending on the source and volume level.

Pogre, from your video - everything looks completely normal to me - but this is obviously at a very loud volume level.

That said, if you are exceeding your amplifier's power specifications - and the amp is starting to clip - the distortion produced by this will produce transverse waves. (this may or may not be audible) These wavelengths are problematic for any speaker as they will cause excess movement - this is what destroys dome tweeters, tears up ribbon diaphragms and burns woofer voice coils.

With your amplifier, which is rated at 200 watts and considering your 15 foot listening distance, do not try and exceed 100dB from 1 speaker at your listening distance. 103dB from both speakers combined.

I have a hunch with that video, you are well over 100dB from that one speaker.

What device are you using to measure spl?

Also, Dolby Reference level is really just an arbitrary number and has no application for music. It was originally designed for movie theater volume levels - to attempt to achieve 85dB average listening volume at every seat in a theater and for this to become a standard at every theater. In this way, mastering engineers are able to set channel levels appropriately so that dialogue and effects are appropriately "leveled" on the mix so that the mix tracks well from one theater to another etc. It works very well for theaters but as Curtis mentioned, is not really appropriate for movies mixed for home theaters. Sometimes movies are re-mixed specifically for home environments, sometimes they are not.

Ever wonder why in some mixes for the home, dialogue is impossible to hear - or effects are much too loud? The intention was good, and it has worked very well for theaters, but it's been a disaster IMO for home theater.

I wish a new standard was developed for home theater mixes as most consumers unknowingly blame the speakers when they watch a movie and can't hear dialogue, or effects are so loud forcing someone to constantly adjust volume levels. They think something is wrong with the speakers...

To repeat, Dolby Reference level is 85dB average listening SPL from one speaker at the listening position. Dolby Digital mixes allow for a massive 20dB of headroom, this is where that 105dB "peak" reference level comes from. It has no bearing for music. Some music sources have as little as 3-6dB headroom (thanks to the damn loudness wars) - even a well recorded CD will never come close 20dB of headroom.

All that said, in a home environment - I would considering anything above 97dB to be too loud and potentially damaging to your hearing.

Hope this makes sense!"


Then he followed up with some more, responding to a post about crossover points/slopes:

"Yep - we use a shallow slope on the mid crossed to the woofers, and a steep slope on the woofers crossed to this mid. Plus that SVS Ultra tower has (2) mids, that automatically cuts the excursion requirements in half, plus they are larger woofers which increases efficiency - further reducing excursion requirements at the same volume levels.

Pogre, you really can't compare one speaker to another with regard to excursion, unless it is a subwoofer with the same size woofer and similar tuning, similar filtering and EQ. It gets complicated. Our Towers were not designed as SPL beasts but I have run ours in our demo room at 110dB for hours at a time, at a listening distance of about - 9 feet in a very well damped room. We have had customers turn up the volume to insane levels at times, often prompting me in the factory area to knock on the door and ask them to turn it down a bit. We have had these same towers in our demo room, which have been seriously abused and with many thousands of hours of listening time on them for close to ten years now. We have yet to have to swap out a woofer or the RAAL 70-20xr. In fact, I believe in an early demo of the towers - I believe Curtis and some other people accidentally bottomed the hell out of the woofers when Mike (I believe it might have been Mike but I could be wrong) played an insane Linkin Park track, full range at about 110dB.

Even more reassuring to you - in many thousands of ribbon towers sold, we have only had (2) customers damage the RAAL 70-20xram. One because the tower got knocked over and landed square on the face, basically shattering the tweeter - and another who used the towers outdoors at his own party, threw an insane amount of power into them and burned up every component, including melting the inductors and resistors in the crossover. That was an interesting situation, as the customer attempted to blame the speaker and fought with us over the warranty -- that was until his some dropped the speaker off at our facility, met Dina and Joe - felt bad and told us the truth as to what really happened"


Bottom line, I'm playing at much higher spl than I realized. I'm about to find out now since my spl meter just arrived...
 
T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
That was some great information delivered in a very understanding and respectful way. I would have just told you, “Geez, turn it down dumbass!”:p
 

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