Are people taking student loans really this dumb?

T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
Here you go again. Nothing - nothing - is accepted in science without evidence, and theories have to be testable.

I’m not disagreeing with you, science is describing and the world around us.

[/QUOTE]There is no comparison between science and religion, and that is what you seem to be trying to establish. Faith does not have a place in science, no matter how much you want to twist this around. If you need to do this to have faith in your faith, please do it somewhere else.[/QUOTE]

I’m not arguing religion and I’m not trying to make you believe anything or twist anything. You’re so anti religion that you’re ascribing you’re own lack of understanding about Christian Faith to you’re assumed opinion of my understanding of science. There’s no implication in the Christian Bible that someone should have blind faith, or faith without evidence.

Anyway, science is really cool and we’re learning lots of amazing things about the universe right now, more so than at any time in history and I’m here to see it!

Someone early in this discussion implied that somehow religious people are to blame for the student loan problem. I’ve been addressing the fallacies of that argument. There’s plenty of people on the other side who act just as silly as some religious people, you could be one of them.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
You're really annoying me
LOL ... it's funny when it's happens to somebody else.
please do it somewhere else.
LOL x 2 ... :D
Okay, laughing about this makes me a bad person.

the US is woefully behind on skilled labor training.
Don't talk like you know me! :D

The carpenters required courses are there to obtain reduced insurance rates and to give us a marketing advantage over the non union companies that we compete with. The optional courses on various aspects of carpentry provide a cursory familiarity with the work. Real skills are developed as we endeavor to keep our jobs.

I've been at this a while now. I know the work. A 40 year track record on safety speaks for itself. Yet I have to now comply with a million new and improved safety rules that just got invented and are being enforced by near adolescent, know nothing twats. Employers encourage us to work in a manner that absolutely leads to our bodies wearing out because there's always a bumper crop of fresh meat in the wings AND they don't want us drinking and doing drugs on the job.

However I admit that the safety bullshit saved me from cracking my head open twice on my last gig and on the job before that, the safety rules saved me from cracking somebody else's head open. I feel compelled to give the twatties their due but the other 39 years were all good ones. The thing is that the mechanism in place for safety is a self propagating machine that has only just begun to get a full head of steam. OSHA standards are the minimum which some contractors use as a spring board for more safety.

It hasn't happened yet but before long I expect to be required to use a body harness tied off to an overhead point in order to step on the first rung of a ladder while a 'trained' spotter watches. I'll be trained, the spotter will be trained and a safety officer with even more training will conduct inspections and maybe even eye exams for the spotter.

Having a crew of say 50 men at a fixed insurance rate that nearly doubles for everybody as soon as 1 of them gets hurt motivates employers to do anything they can to insure that nobody gets hurt ever.

Don't think we're not trained, it's just that we're not trained to work.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Actually, Alex, I was referring to skill training, not safety issues. I keep reading that there's a shortage of trained trades people, everything from electricians to plumbers to carpenters, machinists, mechanics, welders, you name it. My take is that the government should substantially expand what is considered public education to training in various trade skills.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I keep reading that there's a shortage of trained trades people, everything from electricians to plumbers to carpenters, machinists, mechanics, welders, you name it.
Pay 'em $50/hr plus bennies and watch that shortage turn into a flash flood of uneducated fools climbing over the top of each other to work. The competition will drive out the riff raff and skill levels will go through the roof as guys try to keep their kids in dental insurance. There's no shortage of us in cities where they pay. There's a shortage of them in Maine where they don't pay sh!t.

No need to bring the government or the education system into the trades. They can't teach kids the 3 R's but cry for more money despite ... let me stop here.

Try to imagine the kind of money it takes to turn an Irishman into a roofer in August. That's what it takes. :)
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I’m not trying to convert or convince anyone about religion,
You really should and I think you should start with Irv.

Maybe you and Hifi could tag team him like in the bible when the apostles got sent out two by two.

I would do it myself but ... I mean look at the avatar.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Actually, Alex, I was referring to skill training, not safety issues. I keep reading that there's a shortage of trained trades people, everything from electricians to plumbers to carpenters, machinists, mechanics, welders, you name it. My take is that the government should substantially expand what is considered public education to training in various trade skills.
Part of the problem with teaching trades in public schools is the liability faced by the schools when sme inept dork gets hurt- parents will always find a lawyer to sue and that isn't a popular topic at school board meetings. There was, I firmly believe, an attitude of "My kid IS NOT going to work with their hands!". Yeah, well, what if they can't work with their mind? I guess they could be greeters at WalMart.

In order for someone to be seen as 'right' for a trade, they should know which end of a screwdriver to pound on. I have seen some younger kids with tools- it wasn't pretty. I went to Goodwill and found a car stereo amp, so I asked if I could test it. They sent a kid out, maybe 16-18 years old and when I brought out my multimeter and a stereo 3.5mm-RCA cable, he was dumbfounded. I don't know what they're teaching in science classes, but it ain't electrical.

Before the government expands anything technical, they're going to have to ditch Common Core.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
You really should and I think you should start with Irv.

Maybe you and Hifi could tag team him like in the bible when the apostles got sent out two by two.

I would do it myself but ... I mean look at the avatar.
Uh, wut? Who, me?
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
Actually, Alex, I was referring to skill training, not safety issues. I keep reading that there's a shortage of trained trades people, everything from electricians to plumbers to carpenters, machinists, mechanics, welders, you name it. My take is that the government should substantially expand what is considered public education to training in various trade skills.
Pay 'em $50/hr plus bennies and watch that shortage turn into a flash flood of uneducated fools climbing over the top of each other to work. The competition will drive out the riff raff and skill levels will go through the roof as guys try to keep their kids in dental insurance. There's no shortage of us in cities where they pay. There's a shortage of them in Maine where they don't pay sh!t.

No need to bring the government or the education system into the trades. They can't teach kids the 3 R's but cry for more money despite ... let me stop here.

Try to imagine the kind of money it takes to turn an Irishman into a roofer in August. That's what it takes. :)
I've said this a few times, but here it is again.

My brother in-law is 29 and he's a plumber. He's very smart, but dropped out of high school at 15 for some reason.

He makes over $90k per year and just got promoted to a supervisor. All he did was work his ass off to get his licenses and do his job correctly. That's why Irv is 100% correct on people looking at these jobs as viable and our government should recognize that as education equivalent to college degree (or something like that).

But, Alex is also correct. Anyone can pass the basic exam to start as a plumber. My BIL says so many of the people he works with are totally useless. They can't even figure out the simple math to get pipes where they need to be. This is from a dude with no high school education.

I told my wife that unless my kids get a "useful" degree I won't pay for their college. Going into debt for a degree just because you like it makes no sense. You want to be a painter? Go paint, but thinking a degree in art will help makes no sense unless you get it for free (grants, donations, scholarships). Even then, it won't pay the bills.

People need to be taught they have to work and do something that will pay the bills. Sure, working for someone else to make them money sucks, but not that many of us can work for ourselves. Especially as a painter. Unless you want to paint houses. That will pay, but not much.

EDIT: Forgot to answer the main question of this thread: Yes, people are that dumb that they think taking out that much in loans is a good idea. Everyone tells them it's a great idea.
 
M

Midwesthonky

Audioholic Chief
He makes over $90k per year and just got promoted to a supervisor. All he did was work his ass off to get his licenses and do his job correctly. That's why Irv is 100% correct on people looking at these jobs as viable and our government should recognize that as education equivalent to college degree (or something like that).

But, Alex is also correct. Anyone can pass the basic exam to start as a plumber. My BIL says so many of the people he works with are totally useless. They can't even figure out the simple math to get pipes where they need to be. This is from a dude with no high school education.
I see a lot of trades in my area in need of people to work. It's physical work and many people who grew up sitting on their butts can't handle it. But a person can make a very good living at it if they stick with it and learn. But I hear it constantly, getting someone to show up for work, show up sober, and be competent is hard to find. I'd love to see more high schools bring their tech programs back. So many ditched them in the era of "everyone needs to to college" and to cut their insurance premiums. There are two high schools near me that have a good tech program. I've hired 3 kids through that program as apprentices while in high school. 2 have been great, the one mediocre. But I support the program because it's needed.

I told my wife that unless my kids get a "useful" degree I won't pay for their college. Going into debt for a degree just because you like it makes no sense. You want to be a painter? Go paint, but thinking a degree in art will help makes no sense unless you get it for free (grants, donations, scholarships). Even then, it won't pay the bills.
I'm that far, but I have repeatedly pointed out to my kids that you will need to look at a degree and it's job prospects. Mid to late 1800's English Literature is wonderful to study, but in today's society, it pretty much only qualifies you to be a barista or a waiter. To go $120k in debt for that is criminally stupid. One kid has expressed interest in being a writer. I'm like "Great! But consider how you are going to pay the bills while writing your novel. Look at technical writing so you get paid to hone your craft while writing the novel. Or library science. Pays some money while working as a librarian and also write your novel. Consider it on all sides."

One thing I see happening is high schools in the US promote college, college, college, get a degree, get a degree, get a degree. Where most schools fail is they do not educate 16-18 year olds on the financials. Tuition costs $X, room & board costs $Y, books $Z. Your degree interest has maybe 500 jobs available nationally every year at a salary of $25,000 while graduating over 10,000 with that degree each year. Subtract rent, food, car, insurance, etc. and you will fall into $10,000 in debt each year after graduating IF you are one of the 500 graduates that actually gets a job in that field.

Every high school in the US needs a class that spells out financial basics. These are taxes. Basic expenses each month are rent, food, cell phone, insurance, gas, clothing, and student loan payments. Make them do a budget based on average starting salary for their desired degree program and area of living. Make them see the reality that different degree programs will vastly impact their ability to live the life they want. I never saw anyone talk about tuition and student loans when I was in school many years ago and it's not talked about today. I knew what my degree program had for an average starting salary. I knew I would be ok because Engineers have jobs available and make good money.

I do know someone with a degree in art. But he knew going in that it doesn't have any job prospects. So he also took the classes to get a teaching certificate in his state. He is now an art teacher at a high school. Pay isn't great, but benefits are nice and he's off in the summer with his kids.
 
hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
My brother in law got to basically go to college for free, since my sister has been a librarian at several colleges for over 45 years now, and almost 25 at her present one. Were ANY of his degrees actually useful? No. English Lit, Greek Lit? Philosophy? He's got master's degrees in them, and one other one, and BS degrees in like 4 others. He was going to school one way or another, with only a break when he was hit by a car and severely injured, from the time he was 5 until he was almost 50. What kind of jobs has he had? Working in a bookstore. Working in a pipe and cigar shop. He ended up owning the pipe shop, after the previous owners decided to retire and just gave it to him. He makes about half what my sister makes, and never has really done much better than about 50%. He can't do the simplest things around the house himself. They have to hire people to change a lamp cord. When she tells me something like, "We had to call our handyman to___________________________" (put almost anything in there, it works for them), I about lose my mind. Their finances are OK, but when my sister retires soon, her pension, and his SS and smoking store money will get them by, but they won't be going to Hawaii every year for sure. Nor will they ever be able to afford 2 decent cars at the same time. Meanwhile, I have 100 point+ higher credit, and am close to having only my car loan as any debt. I have some decent investments made when I was a young guy, and work a night job basically for the medical benefits. Paying for health insurance at 63 is not cheap, and while the job is not great, it pays for it and allows me to actually have money left over each month from my paycheck and SS alone. My investments pay way more than that, and the debt I built up taking care of my mother is soon to be paid off.

I barely graduated HS. I was bored with school from day one to Senior year of HS. College was vastly better, since I didn't have to torture myself getting up early in the morning. I didn't graduate, but I was close to a BS when I pulled the plug. Just being able to sleep made my health improve greatly. To this day, I will not work a 9-5 job, because it would almost certainly kill me. I worked for my dad in HS, my sister was too much into school to ever take a job before she graduated college. I learned way more USEFUL things working for him and being around people who were carpenters, plumbers, electricians, electronic techs, and car mechanics who were his employees and customers, than I ever did in school. My dad taught both me and my sister the basics of finances, how to balance our checkbooks, budget, etc, but my sister and her hubby, as smart as they are, and they are smart, rented homes for decades and only finally bought a house when they were in their middle 50's. They live in a strange world where they have to hire people constantly to do ridiculously simple things. They have no kids, so they have to pay or talk one of their clueless friend's kids into doing stuff for them. Putting a TV on the wall was a disaster that I had to laugh at, and wish I could have seen in person. Their friend's grandson came over with his 16 year old cheerleader GF and fixed the drywall and put the TV up in less than 45 minutes. He refused to take money my sister offered him, and said, "It's too funny how clueless you guys are!"

But if Youtube didn't exist, I think many of the young people I work with, and friend's kids would be in serious trouble. It's the main method they use to learn how to do anything with their hands. PC's they know all about, but how to fix a hole in the wall? Youtube to the rescue! I learned how to fix drywall when my dog ate the wall out in an unsuccessful escape attempt in 1977. How? I asked a neighbor. That seems to be something the kids don't do anymore.

I can't believe the useless degrees friend's kids and my coworkers took out loans for that are still being paid off. I know people in their 30's with Philosophy, Eng Lit, History, Religion, and other degrees that they owe a lot of money for, and have never had a job that their degree was supposedly for. They seem shocked when I tell them I didn't finish college, but I can afford a very nice car, and will in a couple of years be totally debt free. For decades, I fixed my own cars most of the time, did my own home repairs, made some cash fixing electronics, mostly radio gear, and I know how to DO STUFF. Most of my friend's kids are helpless when it comes to putting in a faucet without help. Guess who a bunch of them call? Me. An old crippled guy. It saddens me and amuses me at the same time when I see the look of wonder on their face when I show them how to do something like fix a light or fix their own car. My friend's grandkids seem to be better than their parents as far as their ability to do simple things themselves. Hell, they can go to Home Depot and learn how to do stuff, but the 30 somethings seem unable to do this before they have a kid and their money comes up a little short, and then they struggle. There are a couple of friend's grandkids who go to Lowes and HD and now know how to do floors and walls, electrical, etc. Their parents have no idea. But they have degrees, and the loans to prove it. The education "inflation" has become absurd. A lot of people should never even think of going to college. Pick a trade and get working at it. You'll be fine, while a lot, if not most of, your classmates who went to college, will struggle.
 
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M

Midwesthonky

Audioholic Chief
But if Youtube didn't exist, I think many of the young people I work with, and friend's kids would be in serious trouble. It's the main method they use to learn how to do anything with their hands. PC's they know all about, but how to fix a hole in the wall? Youtube to the rescue! I learned how to fix drywall when my dog ate the wall out in an unsuccessful escape attempt in 1977. How? I asked a neighbor. That seems to be something the kids don't do anymore.
It's not just kids. Do you know how many times someone walks into my shop and asks me to cut a board? Simple stuff they could do with a power handsaw or the old cross-cut saw they got from their grandpa but threw out because they don't know how to use it. No one taught these people how to do anything basic for repairs - fix a sink, connect a faucet, install a toilet, even how to hang a picture on the wall. Sad really.

There are times I will hire stuff out like the roof. Can I do my own roof? Yes. Do I want to? No. But so many people can't even replace a light switch cover plate. Super simple stuff.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Audioholic Slumlord
.... But so many people can't even replace a light switch cover plate. Super simple stuff.
We are being bombarded constantly how busy we are doing other things, why not get this merchant to do things for you so you can spend more time with family.;):)
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
It's not just kids. Do you know how many times someone walks into my shop and asks me to cut a board? Simple stuff they could do with a power handsaw or the old cross-cut saw they got from their grandpa but threw out because they don't know how to use it. No one taught these people how to do anything basic for repairs - fix a sink, connect a faucet, install a toilet, even how to hang a picture on the wall. Sad really.

There are times I will hire stuff out like the roof. Can I do my own roof? Yes. Do I want to? No. But so many people can't even replace a light switch cover plate. Super simple stuff.
The more people do at home, the less trade work will be left (not going to bankrupt anyone, but it's still work). It's a double edged sword, and in reality businesses and handy men would prefer you to NOT do it yourself. Some people value their time more than money, and that trade off is not something that bothers them, especially if attempting some repairs could potentially lead to more repairs if it goes wrong. Also, some people just aren't comfortable doing that work, or have the motor skills for it. Nothing wrong with paying someone to do it for you if you can. I can do almost all the automotive work required to maintain our cars short of tasks that require manufacture specific tools. I don't snub my nose at people that come to the dealership to have work done, it pays my bills. Likewise, when I detail cars for friends and what not, they appreciate the level of work I can do, and prefer to have me clean their car to a level they can't achieve without incurring large costs of both money and time.

SheepStar
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
It's not just kids. Do you know how many times someone walks into my shop and asks me to cut a board? Simple stuff they could do with a power handsaw or the old cross-cut saw they got from their grandpa but threw out because they don't know how to use it. No one taught these people how to do anything basic for repairs - fix a sink, connect a faucet, install a toilet, even how to hang a picture on the wall. Sad really.

There are times I will hire stuff out like the roof. Can I do my own roof? Yes. Do I want to? No. But so many people can't even replace a light switch cover plate. Super simple stuff.
What's funny about what you said is that I was taught to not pay anyone to do something you could do yourself. I used to live by that, and to an extent still do, but my time is very valuable now and I have very little that is free. I'd rather spend it with my kids than a day putting a new tensioner on my truck. That's not even a fun part.
 
M

Midwesthonky

Audioholic Chief
What's funny about what you said is that I was taught to not pay anyone to do something you could do yourself. I used to live by that, and to an extent still do, but my time is very valuable now and I have very little that is free. I'd rather spend it with my kids than a day putting a new tensioner on my truck. That's not even a fun part.
I have to laugh because that was how I grew up. Need a concrete stoop taken out so a new deck can be built? My dad's philosophy was "I don't need to hire anyone, I have a teenage son and a sledge hammer." $60,000 for new windows and siding? Yikes! I have builder accounts so I can buy everything for about $15,000. Glad I did as I ended up having to fix things from the original builder. But I agree there are some things I just don't want to do so I pay someone to do that.

Of course, there are some projects I like to do just because it means I can be left alone and I can just putter along at my own pace and in my own peace.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
So... Elizabeth Warren, one of those accusing Trump of attacking Iran without congressional permission, is saying that if elected she will order the Department of Education to forgive student loans, purposely bypassing Congress. What a class act. Talk about the pot and the kettle. Here's a critique of her plan from leftist NPR:


The more right-leaning news sites are not so generous, to say the least. I like the part where forgiven loans are considered taxable income, so forgiving the entire loan will show up as a big lump of income in one year, and might push the borrower into a much higher tax bracket.

Personally, I think this obvious bribe to voters with student loans is a sign of desperation.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
Personally, I think this obvious bribe to voters with student loans is a sign of desperation.
No doubt. The idea of a president bypassing congress to do just about anything, especially as big as this, is not a comforting thought. What else will she decide to bypass congress to get done? That's a bad precedent to set.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
I have to laugh because that was how I grew up. Need a concrete stoop taken out so a new deck can be built? My dad's philosophy was "I don't need to hire anyone, I have a teenage son and a sledge hammer." $60,000 for new windows and siding? Yikes! I have builder accounts so I can buy everything for about $15,000. Glad I did as I ended up having to fix things from the original builder. But I agree there are some things I just don't want to do so I pay someone to do that.

Of course, there are some projects I like to do just because it means I can be left alone and I can just putter along at my own pace and in my own peace.
A good example for me is wifey wanted the front flower bed redone and we got a quote. $3k WITHOUT plants. This is to remove existing garbage (mulch, bushes the builder clearly didn't think about before planting, plants we had planted). We kept our back bushes because they're fine. We also wanted them to reshape the bed because for some dumb reason the builder made it heart shaped...sort of. It's dumb.

I laughed and said no way. So wifey went out and trimmed down the bushes as far as she could and I dug them up along with all the other plants. Then we dug out all the mulch. Then I cut the sod to shape the flower bed to look normal and put the stone border back in place. Once that was done I leveled everything out as much as I could and put down a weed barrier. We bought plants, planted them and cut holes in the barrier.

The fun part was the 2500 lbs of stone I bought (only wanted 2k lbs, but whatever) for $80 and got my BIL and nephews to come help shovel it all into buckets and then into the flower bed.

Hard work, but I maybe spent $600 instead of $3k. When it comes to stuff like that, I'll gladly do it myself. Can't always save that much though, but it was a fun and fulfilling project. Nice to see it and say "We did that together and it looks awesome".
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
No doubt. The idea of a president bypassing congress to do just about anything, especially as big as this, is not a comforting thought. What else will she decide to bypass congress to get done? That's a bad precedent to set.
Sure, way worse than bombing another country without evidence causing a backlash that downed a plane, killing 176 people. Did she specifically say she would do it without approval?

SheepStar
 

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