Are people taking student loans really this dumb?

Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Or are these articles written just to highlight some really dumb examples?


Two examples from the article:

A woman who got a doctorate in "naturopathic" medicine and a masters in acupuncture eight years ago, and still owes nearly $500K. We should spend tax dollars on forgiveness for this silliness?

Or the woman who earned an unspecified degree from Purdue, has $43K in education debt, and now works for a non-profit making $30K per year, or about $14/hour. I wonder how she thought she'd repay $43K on $14/hour. That's over 3,000 hours of work at her before-tax wage.

I'm still thinking the best alternative is to let these borrowers declare bankruptcy, and allow student loans to be discharged like other debts (current law says student loans transcend bankruptcy), screwing the lenders, not the taxpayers. Some of these borrowers do appear to be unbelievably stupid, but these lenders appear to be predators.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Or are these articles written just to highlight some really dumb examples?


Two examples from the article:

A woman who got a doctorate in "naturopathic" medicine and a masters in acupuncture eight years ago, and still owes nearly $500K. We should spend tax dollars on forgiveness for this silliness?

Or the woman who earned an unspecified degree from Purdue, has $43K in education debt, and now works for a non-profit making $30K per year, or about $14/hour. I wonder how she thought she'd repay $43K on $14/hour. That's over 3,000 hours of work at her before-tax wage.

I'm still thinking the best alternative is to let these borrowers declare bankruptcy, and allow student loans to be discharged like other debts (current law says student loans transcend bankruptcy), screwing the lenders, not the taxpayers. Some of these borrowers do appear to be unbelievably stupid, but these lenders appear to be predators.
My Cordon Bleu culinary education cost me the equivalent of 2 years at Stanford back in 2003. Stunningly ridiculous.
That private loan is already paid off though, and did help he on my way to working in Private Homes as a Chef, as well as getting me into the Executive Chef position for a premier Winery. That and a cr@p ton of hard work.
But the lending is predatory, and the pursuit of higher education (and specialized education) is bordering on the ridiculous.
Both need reform.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
My Cordon Bleu culinary education cost me the equivalent of 2 years at Stanford back in 2003. Stunningly ridiculous.
That private loan is already paid off though, and did help he on my way to working in Private Homes as a Chef, as well as getting me into the Executive Chef position for a premier Winery. That and a cr@p ton of hard work.
But the lending is predatory, and the pursuit of higher education (and specialized education) is bordering on the ridiculous.
Both need reform.
Your education was clearly expensive, but you sound like a success story.

That woman who took $45K in loans to earn $30K per year at a non-profit? You can earn about as much working at Costco with just a high school diploma and volunteering for community work in your spare time. Some of these folks need a common sense booster shot.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
Your education was clearly expensive, but you sound like a success story.

That woman who took $45K in loans to earn $30K per year at a non-profit? You can earn about as much working at Costco with just a high school diploma and volunteering for community work in your spare time. Some of these folks need a common sense booster shot.
Fine dining cooks in San Francisco at that time were earning between $10-12 / hour. Starting Sous Chef Salary at Aqua, where I cooked for a year or so, was $30K.

They advertised that you would graduate with all the skills required to become a Chef [read:executive].
SMDH.
I was a career changer, 30 yrs old, and just a 'passion' to build on (and subsequently destroy). *shrugs
Success? Sure. And, thank you.
Wish it was that way for more people.
 
T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
Or are these articles written just to highlight some really dumb examples?


Two examples from the article:

A woman who got a doctorate in "naturopathic" medicine and a masters in acupuncture eight years ago, and still owes nearly $500K. We should spend tax dollars on forgiveness for this silliness?

Or the woman who earned an unspecified degree from Purdue, has $43K in education debt, and now works for a non-profit making $30K per year, or about $14/hour. I wonder how she thought she'd repay $43K on $14/hour. That's over 3,000 hours of work at her before-tax wage.

I'm still thinking the best alternative is to let these borrowers declare bankruptcy, and allow student loans to be discharged like other debts (current law says student loans transcend bankruptcy), screwing the lenders, not the taxpayers. Some of these borrowers do appear to be unbelievably stupid, but these lenders appear to be predators.
Nationalizing student debt and not allowing bankruptcy protection is one of the greatest crimes on our youth. When higher education has federally guaranteed loans with the IRS as their debt collectors and no possibility of debt forgiveness or bankruptcy protection they can raise tuition as much as they want and this is proved out in recent tuition increases. Higher education schools have no incentive to compete price wise for students, many have 100’s of faculty positions with six figure salaries enforcing political correctness in its vast forms as policies with no legal oversight. I should stop before I offend someone...


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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Funny, when I was a teenager in the early 70s thinking about college the advice generally from our older brothers/sisters was hey don't worry about a student loan, move a coupla times and they'll never find you. Of course information/identification technology has changed all of that. Still, I think our best bet is via relatively free education rather than burdonsome debt. More tech school options would be nice, too. Mostly it's been a predatory environment outside the public environment, such as drumpfy university but some of the tech/culinary schools are relying on huge loan profits too). I think the US did much better when education was more easily accessed cost-wise, tho. Idiotic conservatives and religious nuts seem to always want to truck up the public system, tho.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The problem is that the cost of higher education has increased far quicker than inflation. This trend has been happening for two, probably three, decades now.
It would have been virtually impossible to rack up more than half a year's pay of debt when I went to college in the late seventies (unless I made it an objective)!
Now, it seems like two or three years of pay (assuming average college degreed pay rates) is about the average cost of getting a four-year degree!
I'm not sure what the explanation is for the higher cost unless you look at it as charging what the market will bear!
There are a few highly competitive universities that pay pretty good salaries, but by far the large majority of college professors are not making much more than regular teachers. So I don't know where the money is going, or where it came from before. Certainly the government is not funding near as much research as it used to but I don't think that's a big enough factor to entirely explain it.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
The problem is that the cost of higher education has increased far quicker than inflation. This trend has been happening for two, probably three, decades now.
It would have been virtually impossible to rack up more than half a year's pay of debt when I went to college in the late seventies (unless I made it an objective)!
Now, it seems like two or three years of pay (assuming average college rates) is about the average cost of getting a four-year degree!
I'm not sure what the explanation is for the higher cost unless you look at it as charging what the market will bear!
There are a few highly competitive universities that pay pretty good salaries, but by far the large majority of college professors are not making much more than regular teachers. So I don't know where the money is going, or where it came from before. Certainly the government is not funding near as much research as it used to but I don't think that's a big enough factor to entirely explain it.
Part of it is of course compensation (having changed much even tho not quite where it should be all things considered). When my dad was a teacher he had to quit to raise a family, my mom continued as a teacher/substitute as needed for family finances mostly, not because it was lucrative or a particularly viable income path, for my mom it was more about love for kids and their education.
 
T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
such as drumpfy university but some of the tech/culinary schools are relying on huge loan profits too). I think the US did much better when education was more easily accessed cost-wise, tho. Idiotic conservatives and religious nuts seem to always want to truck up the public system, tho.
Come on man, you’re all scientific fact based information when it comes to HiFi, try some of the same reasoning with politics as well!

Trump University never advertised itself as an accredited university. It taught how to think like the rich and accumulate wealth like the rich, the fact that you are bashing Trump like some former students of Trump U means you don’t get it and can’t wrap you’re head around it. People sued because they were unable to think outside the box, they couldn’t understand that getting an education and a good job will rarely result in real wealth. Many people have an unfounded moral aversion to to borrowing someone else’s money then leveraging it while using creative understanding of banking law and interpreting profit and loss in the tax code. The fact is someone chose to loan the money, a bank saw the opportunity for risk and the IRS saw a future opportunity for higher revenue by allowing current losses to be counted against future profits.

Anyway, back on topic, the average college grad has become the mindless working class while skilled trade and the service industry is on par with and surpassing them, even more so when you factor in student debt. Colleges now teach what to think and not how to thing, for example your comment about “idiotic conservatives and religious nuts seem to always want to truck up the public system”... never mind the fact that our newly formed Federal Education department was earnestly studying theories of intramural grade based education in 1930’s Nazi Germany which our current education system is modeled after. Many of us idiotic conservatives disagree with the State on subjects like sex education, global warming, creation vs the Big Bang or social justice. It’s not that we disagree with studying these topics or discussing them but that free thought and conclusions on these topics are rigid and one sided, this flies in the face of the entire scientific community that is founded and survives on ideas and peer review. The scientific community is deeply divided on all of these topics and it’s only then it crosses into public and higher education that challenging a theory dies and the challenger is ostracized. I’m a Christian, I believe the Bible is 100% correct, I’m also 100% convinced I don’t understand what it says. Just think, God is conveying things from a Godly perspective, I’m viewing from a human perspective and am unable to comprehend or see it from His perspective. That leaves me with science and science is observing natural phenomena and theorizing what we see, than having others challenge those theories and that’s great! Unfortunately that’s dead in public schools.



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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I don't know where the money is going, or where it came from before. Certainly the government is not funding near as much research as it used to but I don't think that's a big enough factor to entirely explain it.
Increased numbers of administrative personnel is a big factor, IMO:


Another factor is technology. Computers and IT staffs cost more than paper-pushers.

I also believe that the ranking systems push universities into hiring professors that do research but very little undergraduate teaching. Some of that was true when I was an undergrad (40+ years ago), especially in math and physical sciences, but most of my instructors were professors. I seriously believe a lot of community colleges with motivated adjunct professors do a better teaching job than the same classes in some major universities. (My son, a more recent STEM student with three degrees, is a big proponent of community colleges for undergrad courses. Start there, he says, and get your credits transferred.)

I think a factor could be the greater level of service and amenities expectations student have for universities, and the institutions spend more to compete for the best students.
 
P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief
I'm not 100% blaming the student, but I dont understand the desire to take out $50k in student loans. Maybe the 'I'm entitled to a college degree' push? No way should these be bailed out with tax dollars. Student loans should only be offered from the campus being attended, not a 3rd party. Bankruptcy wont solve it, the cost will be ate via bank bailout at the cost of taxpayers. I'm all for 'extended' education but to pursue a liberal arts degree at a 20k+/yr college? If you sell it, they will come I guess. Responsibility HAS to come first.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Nationalizing student debt and not allowing bankruptcy protection is one of the greatest crimes on our youth. When higher education has federally guaranteed loans with the IRS as their debt collectors and no possibility of debt forgiveness or bankruptcy protection they can raise tuition as much as they want and this is proved out in recent tuition increases. Higher education schools have no incentive to compete price wise for students, many have 100’s of faculty positions with six figure salaries enforcing political correctness in its vast forms as policies with no legal oversight. I should stop before I offend someone...
I think the so-called progressive bias in some universities is real, but that's not really relevant here. You are making a good point, however, that easy availability of student loans, even to fund degrees of dubious merit, is increasing the demand for university educations, which has pushed up the price of tuition. My opinion - make loans harder to get and tuition prices will come down. Already a lot of over-priced liberal arts colleges who thought their high tuition prices would be sustainable, so they let their costs run up, found out that's not necessarily the case.

 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I’m also 100% convinced I don’t understand what it says.
How do you know the bible is 100% correct if you don't know what it says?

Maybe I'm viewing this from a rational perspective and am unable to comprehend or see it from Your perspective. :D :p

Revelations warns of taking away or adding to the words of at least that book. To me that's a guarantee that words will be added and taken away. The message is clear. You must wash Lovin's feet.
 
P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief
I think the so-called progressive bias in some universities is real, but that's not really relevant here. You are making a good point, however, that easy availability of student loans, even to fund degrees of dubious merit, is increasing the demand for university educations, which has pushed up the price of tuition. My opinion - make loans harder to get and tuition prices will come down. Already a lot of over-priced liberal arts colleges who thought their high tuition prices would be sustainable, so they let their costs run up, found out that's not necessarily the case.

I agree, make the loans harder to get. However, what about those that choose to take on loans and pay them back, How does it impact them? 18yr olds without credit history is rough waters, the image that they are all irresponsible has some merit, but not necessarily much truth behind it. Maybe tuition costs based solely on area of study? ...trades are cheap, and pay very well...
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I agree, make the loans harder to get. However, what about those that choose to take on loans and pay them back, How does it impact them? 18yr olds without credit history is rough waters, the image that they are all irresponsible has some merit, but not necessarily much truth behind it. Maybe tuition costs based solely on area of study? ...trades are cheap, and pay very well...
I didn't say that all student loan takers are irresponsible. Taking out $100K in loans to get a STEM degree just might pay off in a reasonable timeframe. Many physicians take loans. On the other hand, law schools these days are about $30K per year for three years, just for tuition, but the starting salaries for entry level attorneys average $50K. Talk about a bet on the future.

I think lenders have to be forced to assess the viability of a student's degree program, and perhaps take a more active role in making sure they get a degree. Allowing student loans to be discharged in bankruptcies would IMO force the loan industry to become more responsible, or they would go bankrupt along with their loan-takers. Every time the government gives special protections for anything distortions in the economy result. In California it's something as dumb as electric cars getting free use of carpool lanes. Tax loopholes that subsidize losses. Low road use taxes that make trucking cheap, so the interstates are filled with trucks.
 
T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
How do you know the bible is 100% correct if you don't know what it says?

Maybe I'm viewing this from a rational perspective and am unable to comprehend or see it from Your perspective. :D :p

Revelations warns of taking away or adding to the words of at least that book. To me that's a guarantee that words will be added and taken away. The message is clear. You must wash Lovin's feet.
Hahahahahahaha, now that’s funny!

No, I didn’t say I don’t know what it says, I said I don’t understand everything it says. Science in its most simplistic form is saying, “what I see is 100% correct, my understanding and comprehension of what I’m seeing may not be”. Gods Word is 100% accurate, my understanding of Gods word isn’t. To me adding or taking away from Gods Word is claiming full understanding of Gods Word, that’s the ultimate expression of hubris! The majority of the scientific community believe in the Big Bang but our ultimate theories of it prove wrong time and again. In other words, we mostly agree there was an event we refer to as the Big Bang, our conclusions of what that event actually was is regularly reimagined and proven wrong through peer review. The same is true of “climate change”, we can all agree we are seeing something we can all agree to call climate change, the cause, effects and conclusions in the scientific community are always in dispute and is widely accepted in the scientific community but not so in public and higher education. Oh, and adding or taking away from the Bible was in the Pentateuch but not Canon in Revelations as most scholars agree but accept it as the OT is a shadow of the NT.

To summarize, claiming complete understanding in science or religion you should expect to be embarrassed by your peers sooner than later. If I claim the Big Bang did not occur because I believe the Bible and if you claim the Bible is incorrect because scientific observation of the universe we are both operating on extremely limited information based on even greater limited perspective. Faith is required on both sides, Heb 11:1 Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen... Creation and the Big Bang, we both believe in something we can’t see based on evidence we do see, my question is can you have hope in your belief?


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Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
adding or taking away from the Bible was in the Pentateuch but not Canon in Revelations as most scholars agree but accept it as the OT is a shadow of the NT.
I feel like I entered The Twilight Zone.

Adding and taking away are mentioned on the last page of Revelations. That's the NT. It seems like you're disputing that. Are you disputing THAT? I feel like there is no way in hell you just told me I didn't reed what I red where I just red it. The phonetic spelling is there for clarity.

I didn’t say I don’t know what it says
Understanding and knowing are a lot closer in meaning than:

I don’t understand what it says.
and

I said I don’t understand everything it says.
I get that you may have meant to use the word 'everything' in your initial post but you didn't and now you claim that you did.

Neither of your assertions are true. Please don't be offended. That's not my intent but I'm not letting you make this up as you go along. I guess that's all.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
I can be absolutely certain that the world was not built in seven days. There is absolute proof of that, that is not open to dispute. Evolution of species is also not open to debate. In fact you can see it still in progress in nature. There is really good evidence for the universe being 13.8 billion years old.

Genesis is a parable and nothing more. Like good parables it does contain some essential truths.

Literalists do no one any favor, and help expose religion to unnecessary ridicule.
 

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