Are people taking student loans really this dumb?

Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Also, all predatory lending has been solely sourced from the federal government since 2010.
Now you've lost me. Private banks and companies make tuition loans, and they're all protected by the changes in the bankruptcy laws. For example, Wells Fargo:


Or, Navient, the company that Elizabeth Warren was bitching at Leon Cooperman about:

 
R

RedCharles

Audioholic
I could write a lot about this. I was an educator.

Several points. The best class in US history graduated in 1969. And that's a fact. You can look up the scores. Today's kids have broken homes or both parents working, and too much social media to succeed and achieve at boomer level. Education techniques have improved since 1969, but the middle of the road students are too screwed up to take advantage of the improvements.

What made America great? America's greatness came from clubs and local newspapers. Stay at home moms who kept businesses and schools accountable and made their community a great place to live. Local newspapers that kept the local government accountable. Churches that brought the community together across class lines. These things are gone. And Trump ain't bringing it back.

Today's average college freshman is an intellectual dwarf with anxiety problems. Many of America's young people do not have a solid emotional foundation to build their lives on. And they're lazy to boot. They didn't have to be, but they are. Passive. Risk averse. And worst of all, they barely know how to read. The majority of students I taught who walked at graduation had NEVER finished a book.

College is wasted on them. They lack the backbone to push back and engage in critical thinking. The education system teaches young people nothing about taxes or home ownership, the biggest expenses of their lives. College doesn't even teach young people how to write a resume. The real purpose education is to teach conformity. To train young people to jump through hoops and put up with bureaucratic nonsense. How a student responds to first grade determines the success of their educational career; by the time a student gets to high school, the die has already been cast.

It's true that real life can make one ready for college. It's not hopeless. I wasn't ready at 18. I flunked out. After a few years in the service, I was ready for college. However, the most intelligent and emotionally sound 18 year olds have an amazing world at their finger tips; things have never been better.

Students are subjected to a tsunami of bad advice from their teachers and their parents. More often than not, K-12 teachers have spent their entire lives inside the education system. Their notion of how the world works is far from reality, but they have no idea. And the people they interact with everyday, kids and fellow teachers, reinforce their feelings of intellectual superiority. And the parents that teachers most often interact with are not hyper successful to say the least. And since college was the best time of their lives and unlocked the door to a career, they advise their students to pursue the same path, BECAUSE IT'S ALL THEY KNOW (teachers are some of the hardest workers I've ever known, but they are severely biased). Parents, even ones that did not go to college, believe in the power of a college education and it's ability to transform teenagers into successful adults that can navigate the challenges of life and pursue middle class careers. What parents don't know is how much lower the value of a bachelor's degree is now than in 1990. Not only are more people getting bachelor's degrees, and lowering the value through quantity, colleges have been steadily lowering the actual work load for decades.

I remember the shock on my student's faces when I told them that they were not a loser if they didn't go to college. That having the respect of your peers and family was the true sign of success, not a college degree. The constant hammering and pressure to go to college had convinced these kids that were losers if they didn't go to college, and so they go. And without a clue of why they should be there.

It surprises me and doesn't surprise me the LoveinHD would blame the Right for the American education system's failure. There is no sector of American life that is more controlled by the Left. My grad class was 24-1 Liberal. The school I taught at was in a rural, religious area. The staff was liberal 98-3. And if there were more conservatives, they were extremely silent. And in case you're curious, it was me, the librarian and the head football coach that were happy Trump won.

I didn't have a single conservative professor in college. The closest, was an old line Marxist that felt that identity politics were the scourge of the left. He believed it undermined the only true political battle, class warfare. Teachers and professors are almost uniformally leftist.

We spend more on education than in any other time in American history; you cannot blame the right for a lack of funding. Vast sums of money are wasted on gyms, and fancy buildings, and administrators. The faculty themselves rarely achieve tenure anymore. I don't blame the professors, and in fact, I still like my professors, even though they were a bunch of liberals and leftists. They deserved tenure, but the university withholds it from them. The university is not only ripping off students, they're ripping off professors.

And as far as the loans are concerned, it's immoral to charge 8% interest on student loans. It's reprehensible that our nation allows banks to charge high interest rates on the young people who are trying to better themselves. Student loans should be pegged at or a point above inflation and no more. It is also immoral that student loans have to be paid back with post-tax earnings. Student loans should be paid back with pre-tax money.

Charging 300 dollars for math book is immoral. Textbook prices have been outrageously high for decades and congress had done nothing. I really thought Obama would do something about the cost of education but he failed.

The loans should not be simply discharged Bernie Sanders style. Bailouts are immoral. The loans must be paid back. We risk creating an even more irresponsible society.

And it bears stating that if student loans could be discharged through bankruptcy, then logically, every student would declare bankruptcy as soon as they graduate. The goods are in their brain and cannot be repossessed.

There are four groups of greedy scum that are ruining education: banks that service the loans, school reform advocates, university administrators and publishers. Each one is trying to milk as much money out taxpayers and young people as possible. They're disgusting, and it's way past time that our government stepped in and stopped the feeding frenzy. Education is how we as a nation invest in our future. It's patriotic. And these greedy scum have perverted it to make money of some of the most mentally vulnerable people in our society ... teenagers.
 
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T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
I could write a lot about this. I was an educator.

Several points. The best class in US history graduated in 1969. And that's a fact. You can look up the scores. Today's kids have broken homes or both parents working, and too much social media to succeed and achieve at boomer level. Education techniques have improved since 1969, but the middle of the road students are too screwed up to take advantage of the improvements.

What made America great? America's greatness came from clubs and local newspapers. Stay at home moms who kept businesses and schools accountable and made their community a great place to live. Local newspapers that kept the local government accountable. Churches that brought the community together across class lines. These things are gone. And Trump ain't bringing it back.

Today's average college freshman is an intellectual dwarf with anxiety problems. Many of America's young people do not have a solid emotional foundation to build their lives on. And they're lazy to boot. They didn't have to be, but they are. Passive. Risk averse. And worst of all, they barely know how to read. The majority of students I taught who walked at graduation had NEVER finished a book.

College is wasted on them. They lack the backbone to push back and engage in critical thinking. The education system teaches young people nothing about taxes or home ownership, the biggest expenses of their lives. College doesn't even teach young people how to write a resume. The real purpose education is to teach conformity. To train young people to jump through hoops and put up with bureaucratic nonsense. How a student responds to first grade determines the success of their educational career; by the time a student gets to high school, the die has already been cast.

It's true that real life can make one ready for college. It's not hopeless. I wasn't ready at 18. I flunked out. After a few years in the service, I was ready for college. However, the most intelligent and emotionally sound 18 year olds have an amazing world at their finger tips; things have never been better.

Students are subjected to a tsunami of bad advice from their teachers and their parents. More often than not, K-12 teachers have spent their entire lives inside the education system. Their notion of how the world works is far from reality, but they have no idea. And the people they interact with everyday, kids and fellow teachers, reinforce their feelings of intellectual superiority. And the parents that teachers most often interact with are not hyper successful to say the least. And since college was the best time of their lives and unlocked the door to a career, they advise their students to pursue the same path, BECAUSE IT'S ALL THEY KNOW (teachers are some of the hardest workers I've ever known, but they are severely biased). Parents, even ones that did not go to college, believe in the power of a college education and it's ability to transform teenagers into successful adults that can navigate the challenges of life and pursue middle class careers. What parents don't know is how much lower the value of a bachelor's degree is now than in 1990. Not only are more people getting bachelor's degrees, and lowering the value through quantity, colleges have been steadily lowering the actual work load for decades.

I remember the shock on my student's faces when I told them that they were not a loser if they didn't go to college. That having the respect of your peers and family was the true sign of success, not a college degree. The constant hammering and pressure to go to college had convinced these kids that were losers if they didn't go to college, and so they go. And without a clue of why they should be there.

It surprises me and doesn't surprise me the LoveinHD would blame the Right for the American education system's failure. There is no sector of American life that is more controlled by the Left. My grad class was 24-1 Liberal. The school I taught at was in a rural, religious area. The staff was liberal 98-3. And if there were more conservatives, they were extremely silent. And in case you're curious, it was me, the librarian and the head football coach that were happy Trump won.

I didn't have a single conservative professor in college. The closest, was an old line Marxist that felt that identity politics were the scourge of the left. He believed it undermined the only true political battle, class warfare. Teachers and professors are almost uniformally leftist.

We spend more on education than in any other time in American history; you cannot blame the right for a lack of funding. Vast sums of money are wasted on gyms, and fancy buildings, and administrators. The faculty themselves rarely achieve tenure anymore. I don't blame the professors, and in fact, I still like my professors, even though they were a bunch of liberals and leftists. They deserved tenure, but the university withholds it from them. The university is not only ripping off students, they're ripping off professors.

And as far as the loans are concerned, it's immoral to charge 8% interest on student loans. It's reprehensible that our nation allows banks to charge high interest rates on the young people who are trying to better themselves. Student loans should be pegged at or a point above inflation and no more. It is also immoral that student loans have to be paid back with post-tax earnings. Student loans should be paid back with pre-tax money.

Charging 300 dollars for math book is immoral. Textbook prices have been outrageously high for decades and congress had done nothing. I really thought Obama would do something about the cost of education but he failed.

The loans should not be simply discharged Bernie Sanders style. Bailouts are immoral. The loans must be paid back. We risk creating an even more irresponsible society.

And it bears stating that if student loans could be discharged through bankruptcy, then logically, every student would declare bankruptcy as soon as they graduate. The goods are in their brain and cannot be repossessed.

There are four groups of greedy scum that are ruining education: banks that service the loans, school reform advocates, university administrators and publishers. Each one is trying to milk as much money out taxpayers and young people as possible. They're disgusting, and it's way past time that our government stepped in and stopped the feeding frenzy. Education is how we as a nation invest in our future. It's patriotic. And these greedy scum have perverted it to make money of some of the most mentally vulnerable people in our society ... teenagers.
It wouldn’t be a bad idea to send representatives from the department of education to Rudolph Steiner and get a solid grasp on the Waldorf education system.


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T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
But let's look at the reasons for the increase in the price of cars & trucks- one of the main costs is because of emission requirements, while another is in the way people have decided that they need one kind of vehicle over the others- it's just supply & demand. Most people don't need SUVs, yet they're one of the most popular segments of the market. Why does a pickup truck come with a price sticker of more than $50K? Because people will pay the price and they can lease one at a price that fits their budget but they won't have these vehicles 40 years after they sign on the dotted line, either. I don't see how vehicle cost is similar to education cost.
A basic Jeep Wrangler was $16k in 2003 and now it’s $35k, a Duramax GMC Sierra was $44k fully loaded and now almost $90k. Why, cheap loans that’s why!

If you want a liberal arts degree then you should do two years at your local JC and then if your grades are good enough you get a loan to finish your bachelors. All that a basic college degree tells an employer is that you’ve been programmed to fall in line and that hopefully you won’t suck that bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
Here's a quote that's as written-

"I’m a Christian, I believe the Bible is 100% correct, I’m also 100% convinced I don’t understand what it says. Just think, God is conveying things from a Godly perspective, I’m viewing from a human perspective and am unable to comprehend or see it from His perspective."

It's clearly not necessary to understand or know something in order to believe it.
Are you attempting to state that one must understand a thing to believe it? I come from many generations of pastors and church leaders who have attended the best religious schools in America and there are zero Christian leaders who will say that they fully understand the Bible.

Here’s another example, a neurologist or psychologist they prescribe a psych med but they don’t actually understand how the brain works and what the psych med is actually doing. They literally guess what medication and dosage may work but they are often wrong and expect that even if they are right at some unknown point in the future the medication will stop working and they will have to guess at a new prescription dosage and combination and hope for the best.

We are on an AV hifi forum and no professional in the field will claim to have a mastery understanding of their field. Every theory will eventually be proven wrong and replaced with a more accurate theory, we don’t actually know anything and all we are doing is observing and postulating what we think we are observing.

If you want to use the yardstick you are using to judge people of faith and measure your own beliefs I promise not to belittle you on your findings.


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B

bigkrazy155

Audioholic
Now you've lost me. Private banks and companies make tuition loans, and they're all protected by the changes in the bankruptcy laws. For example, Wells Fargo:


Or, Navient, the company that Elizabeth Warren was bitching at Leon Cooperman about:


"Ending the process of the federal government giving subsidies to private banks to give out federally insured loans. Instead loans will be administered directly by the Department of Education."
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan

"Ending the process of the federal government giving subsidies to private banks to give out federally insured loans. Instead loans will be administered directly by the Department of Education."
Yes, but that law doesn't prevent banks and other companies from making private loans. However, I looked up the statistics. Private loans make up only about 8% of all tuition loans, so I'll give you the win on this point.
 
B

bigkrazy155

Audioholic
Yes, but that law doesn't prevent banks and other companies from making private loans. However, I looked up the statistics. Private loans make up only about 8% of all tuition loans, so I'll give you the win on this point.
You are correct on that, but I believe those private loans are not federally insured "college" loans either. I could be wrong about that.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
You are correct on that, but I believe those private loans are not federally insured "college" loans either. I could be wrong about that.
Nope, you're correct, but they're still not dischargeable in a bankruptcy.
 
T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
More like junk food for thought. The ultimate test of whether or not our understanding of physics is correct is when you can test a theory by direct observation (such as light being bent by gravity), or by building a device whose operation depends on the validity of the theory. Quantum mechanics is sufficiently well understood that many machines have been built that are proven to function and would not properly function if the theories about quantum mechanics were incorrect. The most common example is Magnetic Resonance Imaging (MRI). It depends on electron spin being a real phenomenon to function. Quantum computers depend on entanglement, perhaps the most deviant phenomenon of all from classic physics, as does quantum cryptography. The assertion that "we have no rational explanation" is just silly. There isn't a contradiction between behaviors at very small sizes (sub-atomic particles) and those at much larger sizes. Do you know why clouds weigh more than a million pounds yet float in the air? It's not due to quantum mechanics, but it does show a real world example of how behaviors of very tiny things can be different than for much larger things.

I don't understand your question about Einstein at all. This is a guy who predicted the existence of gravity waves over 100 years ago, and you're wondering what he was wrong about? If you have to make yourself feel better though, search for "Cosmological Constant".

I do understand not accepting that the universe as we see it is simply the product of random events, some famous astrophysicists seem to wonder the same thing, but trying to discount proven physics as a means to justify completely unproven assertions of faith is invalid.
making an observation then coming up with a theory, then proving that theory by testing does not equal understanding. Let’s take gravity and gravity waves, we know there’s a relationship between mass and gravity and now we are observing those waves (https://www.ligo.org/science/Publication-O1StochDir/flyer.pdf) but we still have zero understanding of what gravity is other than a “force”. Any form of radiation, nope! Furthermore the Cosmological Constant ‘problem’ will yet again fall to another theory (string theory, super string theory in a long line of dead theories) that promises to answer “the” question yet only leads to more questions and the realization that we’re only at the beginning of being able to ask better questions. I still remember having a guest speaker in science class, a nuclear physicist and the head of nuclear weapon design at Lawrence Livermore labs briefly describe the 4th, 5th and 6th dimensions then go all the way to the 13th dimension, our teacher admitted to loosing understanding near the 7th dimension. I don’t remember his name but he admitted we really don’t know much about nuclear physics.

Again, we’re starting to make some great observations about the Universe but we have no clue what we’re looking at.


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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
making an observation then coming up with a theory, then proving that theory by testing does not equal understanding. Let’s take gravity and gravity waves, we know there’s a relationship between mass and gravity and now we are observing those waves (https://www.ligo.org/science/Publication-O1StochDir/flyer.pdf) but we still have zero understanding of what gravity is other than a “force”. Any form of radiation, nope! Furthermore the Cosmological Constant ‘problem’ will yet again fall to another theory (string theory, super string theory in a long line of dead theories) that promises to answer “the” question yet only leads to more questions and the realization that we’re only at the beginning of being able to ask better questions. I still remember having a guest speaker in science class, a nuclear physicist and the head of nuclear weapon design at Lawrence Livermore labs briefly describe the 4th, 5th and 6th dimensions then go all the way to the 13th dimension, our teacher admitted to loosing understanding near the 7th dimension. I don’t remember his name but he admitted we really don’t know much about nuclear physics.

Again, we’re starting to make some great observations about the Universe but we have no clue what we’re looking at.
You're really annoying me by polluting this thread with your religion and your anti-science nonsense, while you type in your responses on an iPhone that wouldn't exist without some rather accurate theories and models for how the universe works. Why is it you are so skeptical of the science that makes your lifestyle possible, but you're willing to have faith in a god you have no existence proof for, and in a book you admit you don't understand?
 
R

RedCharles

Audioholic
This forum thread is going to settle it. Once and for all. Great minds have tried, but it's going to be settled once and for all right here, right now. :Do_O:cool:
 
R

RedCharles

Audioholic
Do you believe in God?
Yes.
Do you fully understand the Bible as God intended?
No.

Do you believe in science?
Yes.
Do you fully understand the math behind every phenoma?
No.

This is another way of putting your attack, so you can understand what you're positing.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
This forum thread is going to settle it. Once and for all. Great minds have tried, but it's going to be settled once and for all right here, right now. :Do_O:cool:
Says the man who wrote the longest and most assertive post...
 
T

TankTop5

Senior Audioholic
You're really annoying me by polluting this thread with your religion and your anti-science nonsense, while you type in your responses on an iPhone that wouldn't exist without some rather accurate theories and models for how the universe works. Why is it you are so skeptical of the science that makes your lifestyle possible, but you're willing to have faith in a god you have no existence proof for, and in a book you admit you don't understand?
What? I said no such thing, I love science, it’s amazing and fascinating and I’ve spent countless hours reading scholarly articles and even white papers (well beyond my understanding for the most part) in many scientific fields. I’m confused why you think science and the Bible are exclusive to each other, if God made the universe than He made the scientific laws that govern it and it’s beautiful to study! I’m not trying to convert or convince anyone about religion, I’m simply trying to convey when it comes down to it much of science has to be accepted on faith.


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highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
Are you attempting to state that one must understand a thing to believe it? I come from many generations of pastors and church leaders who have attended the best religious schools in America and there are zero Christian leaders who will say that they fully understand the Bible.

Here’s another example, a neurologist or psychologist they prescribe a psych med but they don’t actually understand how the brain works and what the psych med is actually doing. They literally guess what medication and dosage may work but they are often wrong and expect that even if they are right at some unknown point in the future the medication will stop working and they will have to guess at a new prescription dosage and combination and hope for the best.

We are on an AV hifi forum and no professional in the field will claim to have a mastery understanding of their field. Every theory will eventually be proven wrong and replaced with a more accurate theory, we don’t actually know anything and all we are doing is observing and postulating what we think we are observing.

If you want to use the yardstick you are using to judge people of faith and measure your own beliefs I promise not to belittle you on your findings.


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Did you not read my last sentence?

Here is is again- "It's clearly not necessary to understand or know something in order to believe it.".

I wasn't belittling you, but I probably shouldn't have written 'clearly' without mentioning the widespread misuse of beliefs when people massacre others.

Nobody knows everything, about anything. Some obviously know a lot and some know more than most, but nobody knows everything. Well, unless it's about something they invented and they wrote all of the rules and details about it.

Religion is something I don't argue and because it's such a personal issue, I definitely don't belittle anyone for their beliefs unless that religion was invented as part of a bet by a science fiction writer.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
A basic Jeep Wrangler was $16k in 2003 and now it’s $35k, a Duramax GMC Sierra was $44k fully loaded and now almost $90k. Why, cheap loans that’s why!

If you want a liberal arts degree then you should do two years at your local JC and then if your grades are good enough you get a loan to finish your bachelors. All that a basic college degree tells an employer is that you’ve been programmed to fall in line and that hopefully you won’t suck that bad.


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Some fields require a degree AND the knowledge to understand the material, some require a license to practice. The people going into those fields generally aren't going into it without a clue about the field, even if starting pay sucks.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
What? I said no such thing, I love science, it’s amazing and fascinating and I’ve spent countless hours reading scholarly articles and even white papers (well beyond my understanding for the most part) in many scientific fields. I’m confused why you think science and the Bible are exclusive to each other, if God made the universe than He made the scientific laws that govern it and it’s beautiful to study! I’m not trying to convert or convince anyone about religion, I’m simply trying to convey when it comes down to it much of science has to be accepted on faith.
Here you go again. Nothing - nothing - is accepted in science without evidence, and theories have to be testable. There is no comparison between science and religion, and that is what you seem to be trying to establish. Faith does not have a place in science, no matter how much you want to twist this around. If you need to do this to have faith in your faith, please do it somewhere else.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
My dad used to tell me that a college degree taught people to think. In light of what I have seen over the decades, I guess that ship has sailed.
I think it depends on the school and the major. I used to tell my students that they would be lucky if they actually used 10% of the material they got over 4 years of college, what they were really learning was how to take a difficult problem and spend some time analyzing/brainstorming it in a serious effort to solve it before tossing up your hands and saying "I don't know how!"
But both my daughter and her boyfriend were hired into positions that are more about thinking outside the box.
One factor is that college is now pretty much on the agenda of life!. For my grandfather's generation (born 1898), college was pretty much only for the few who really, really excelled at academics, and even then, if you lived on a farm, it was more important for you to help there than to waste more years in school!
I would guess it was in the 80's - 90's where college became the expectation for the middle class, and today it seems to be viewed as a necessity.
However, my real point is it used to be that students were not attending college unless they has a real desire to and over the years that changed to where guys are now going to college simply because they'd rather do that (often on the parent's nickle) than go to work.
This is a double problem because not only are a certain percentage of students not motivated, but it makes it more difficult for a teacher to cover the same ground in class. In engineering, the philosophy is if you can't keep up, find an easier major, but I believe if you are a history teacher, your students are pretty precious for justifying teaching positions in your department!
Did you work with people from the Kansas City office of a company called Burns & McDonnell?
I know we hired some guys laid-off from Kansas after one of their nuclear plants was completed, but I don't know who they used to work for!
Bechtel was responsible for the overall project (Westinghouse reactor and design for most of the radioactive side of the plant, GE for the steam turbine, and Ecolaire for the condenser). (It has been long enough that I may FUBAR the spellings) Ingalls for Ironworkers, Pullman for Piping and Millwright work, Cleveland for Electrical.
If Burns and McDonnell was there, it was only for a very small piece of the pie! This is a job site that had 20,000 people when it was at the peak! That is the population of a good sized town!
 

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