Aperion Verus Grand and Ascend Sierra Tower

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think both sound VERY natural.

Oh, gotcha. I misunderstood and thought you meant the measurements showed the RAAL was more natural or more accurate and all that.

 

[cschang]

So just by looking at the measurements, you can tell all that?

You can see that energy dissipates faster, as well as decay.

 

[cschang]

Oh, gotcha. I misunderstood and thought you meant the measurements showed the RAAL was more natural or more accurate and all that.

I think he was asking about the speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You can see that energy dissipates faster, as well as decay.

Sure. On measurement. But that doesn't really prove the actual difference in sound in real life. That's why I was asking to see about actual blinded comparisons where people did not know which speaker was which and the results where consistent.

My hypothesis is that in a blinded level match comparison, people will not be able to tell the difference between the RAAL vs other tweeters in terms of statistical significance. And the percentage would get worse and worse if they did a 3-way, 4-way, 6-way comparison among all the different tweeters (RAAL vs Aluminum dome vs Beryllium vs Diamond vs Titanium vs Magnesium, etc).

 

[cschang]

Sure. On measurement. But that doesn't really prove the actual difference in sound in real life. That's why I was asking to see about actual blinded comparisons where people did not know which speaker was which and the results where consistent.

My hypothesis is that in a blinded level match comparison, people will not be able to tell the difference between the RAAL vs other tweeters in terms of statistical significance. And the percentage would get worse and worse if they did a 3-way, 4-way, 6-way comparison among all the different tweeters (RAAL vs Aluminum dome vs Beryllium vs Diamond vs Titanium vs Magnesium, etc).

I have not heard the Songtower with a RAAL, but if it was Songtower vs Songtower, or Sierra Tower vs Sierra Tower, I would bet that you are wrong.

I think the big key for some of those that can't hear the difference is how the switching between speakers is done.

Thinking about what you are saying. Are you saying measurements don't mean anything? Tweeter material doesn't mean anything?

 

[Tomorrow]

Sure. On measurement. But that doesn't really prove the actual difference in sound in real life. That's why I was asking to see about actual blinded comparisons where people did not know which speaker was which and the results where consistent.

My hypothesis is that in a blinded level match comparison, people will not be able to tell the difference between the RAAL vs other tweeters in terms of statistical significance. And the percentage would get worse and worse if they did a 3-way, 4-way, 6-way comparison among all the different tweeters (RAAL vs Aluminum dome vs Beryllium vs Diamond vs Titanium vs Magnesium, etc).

Your hypothesis would be wrong. Not only can people note a difference in material in blind tests, they can tell difference in manufacturers of different tweeters of the same material. Think about it, ADTG, what you're saying is tantamount to suggesting that all speakers sound alike. When I look at that sig of yours, I KNOW you don't think that ... or you would instead have a Shiite load of Radio Shack speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Most people consider the Salon2, KEF 201/2, & TAD R1 to be some of the most accurate speakers. What does that mean? It means all 3 could reproduce the "C" note of a piano extremely accurately/ faithfully.

So if these 3 speakers played the middle C note, would all 3 sound completely different? How could they be ultra accurate, extremely accurate if all 3 sounded totally different?

Most people can't even tell when a piano is slightly out of tune. You think most people could tell the difference between the middle C note of a Salon2 vs KEF 201/2 vs TAD R1?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Your hypothesis would be wrong. Not only can people note a difference in material in blind tests, they can tell difference in manufacturers of different tweeters of the same material.

And you have actual blinded studies to prove this or is this your hypothesis?

There was at least one blinded test on AVS in which the owners of the speakers could not even tell which speakers were their speakers once they were blinded.

 

[cschang]

Most people consider the Salon2, KEF 201/2, & TAD R1 to be some of the most accurate speakers. What does that mean? It means all 3 could reproduce the "C" note of a piano extremely accurately/ faithfully.

So if these 3 speakers played the middle C note, would all 3 sound completely different? How could they be ultra accurate, extremely accurate if all 3 sounded totally different?

Most people can't even tell when a piano is slightly out of tune. You think most people could tell the difference between the middle C note of a Salon2 vs KEF 201/2 vs TAD R1?

Maybe not tell you which speaker is which, but quite possibly tell you that one was different from the other.
I have heard all three of those speakers, not at the same time or in the same room...the Salon2 was in a terrible room.

That said, I'm willing to bet I can tell the 201/2 (which I had in my room for a week) from the TAD R1 pretty easily.

With instant switching, it makes it pretty easy. If you did that with pianos...I am sure it would be easy too. You would have to be tone deaf if you had two pianos side by side..and one slightly out of tune...playing the middle C note between the two.

 

[cschang]

There was at least one blinded test on AVS in which the owners of the speakers could not even tell which speakers were their speakers once they were blinded.

I actually believe that, but could they tell that they were different speakers?

 

[billy p]

And you have actual blinded studies to prove this or is this your hypothesis?

There was at least one blinded test on AVS in which the owners of the speakers could not even tell which speakers were their speakers once they were blinded.

I'm aware of this GTG held in the Northwest back in 2010...if there is another, if you can... post it...

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/67150-2010-great-northwest-gtg.html

 

[Tomorrow]

The AVS test you are referring to may be the one of the blind tests we ran (Mudslide)...because that was a result that I reported on. Yes, most people can tell the difference between speakers. No, some people can not tell which is theirs but all can still detect differences among speakers. The real trick for the blinded auditioner is deciding how to verbalize what he's hearing and how the experimenter should measure it. But that's grist for another thread.

Regarding your hypothesis, because you can't hear something, doesn't me that it isn't audible. I don't mean to cause you grief with your belief system, ADTG. You seem to be a little agitated. So I'll bow out of this discussion.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The AVS test you are referring to may be the one of the blind tests we ran (Mudslide)...because that was a result that I reported on. Yes, most people can tell the difference between speakers. No, some people can not tell which is theirs but all can still detect differences among speakers. The real trick for the blinded auditioner is deciding how to verbalize what he's hearing and how the experimenter should measure it. But that's grist for another thread.

Regarding your hypothesis, because you can't hear something, doesn't me that it isn't audible. I don't mean to cause you grief with your belief system, ADTG. You seem to be a little agitated. So I'll bow out of this discussion.

Nah, just talking man. Chit chat is all. But that's how I feel about it.

A fun debate or maybe like a video game. Sure I want to win the game, but I don't take it seriously.

I'm kind of at a point where the important thing is not how the speakers sound or how they differ; not even if it is DTS-HD or TrueHD or how much Dynamic Compression, etc. The important thing is the actual story & characters in the movie or TV show and the content of the song.

 

[cschang]

Nah, just talking man. Chit chat is all. But that's how I feel about it.

A fun debate or maybe like a video game. Sure I want to win the game, but I don't take it seriously.

I'm kind of at a point where the important thing is not how the speakers sound or how they differ; not even if it is DTS-HD or TrueHD or how much Dynamic Compression, etc. The important thing is the actual story & characters in the movie or TV show and the content of the song.

You know, with that bias, if you submitted yourself to a blind test, it may not be valid...you would just say you can't tell the difference.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You know, with that bias, if you submitted yourself to a blind test, it may not be valid...you would just say you can't tell the difference.

Two way street.

I could say the same thing vice versa; it is totally bias with a preconceived notion that all speakers must sound completely different.

Just like with amps. But people cannot prove it in a true DBT. Saying is one thing. Actual proof with actual DBT is another.

Maybe I feel that way after comparing all my speakers in my house. I gain nothing from saying this. Actually I risk losing my cool audiophile man card just be saying something like this.

I would sound so much cooler by saying that I could easily tell the difference between every speaker in a blind test.

But, I'm just shooting the breeze. Talking away. Without a care in the world.

Fine print: I am comparing Salon2 vs KEF 201/2 vs B&W 802D vs Orion vs Phil's, not some Bose.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay, so after all this, I just want to clarify something. I think all ultra accurate speakers will reproduce the original sound very accurately. A violin will sound like a violin. A piano will sound like a piano. A horn will sound like a horn, etc.

In absolute critical listening w/ instant switching, I think we might be able to tell the difference. But in all other cases, I find it difficult to tell the difference in midrange & treble.

Now comparing ultra accurate speakers vs less accurate/ more colored speakers is another thing.

 

[Nuance AH]

Sure. On measurement. But that doesn't really prove the actual difference in sound in real life. That's why I was asking to see about actual blinded comparisons where people did not know which speaker was which and the results where consistent.

My hypothesis is that in a blinded level match comparison, people will not be able to tell the difference between the RAAL vs other tweeters in terms of statistical significance. And the percentage would get worse and worse if they did a 3-way, 4-way, 6-way comparison among all the different tweeters (RAAL vs Aluminum dome vs Beryllium vs Diamond vs Titanium vs Magnesium, etc).

I know you supposedly blocked me, but there is a blind test between the JTR Noesis and Salk HT2-TL speakers over on AVS that was recently performed, and nearly everyone who commented in the thread said that the difference between the tweeter in the JTR's and the RAAL was very apparent. Again, this was a blind, level matched test. It may have been a bit biased toward high efficiency designs, but it's a good reference regarding being able to tell the speakers apart. One listener commented he immediately could tell which is which, probably because he owned the JTR's. This also shows that a person can be so familiar with the sound of their speaker that they can in fact tell them apart under blind conditions. I'd bet I could tell which were mine under such conditions no sweat.

You're also calling into question the blind, level matched case studies that Harman conducted. Like RJ said, just because you cannot hear a difference doesn't mean others cannot.

 

[cschang]

Two way street.

I could say the same thing vice versa; it is totally bias with a preconceived notion that all speakers must sound completely different.

Just like with amps. But people cannot prove it in a true DBT. Saying is one thing. Actual proof with actual DBT is another.

Maybe I feel that way after comparing all my speakers in my house. I gain nothing from saying this. Actually I risk losing my cool audiophile man card just be saying something like this.

I would sound so much cooler by saying that I could easily tell the difference between every speaker in a blind test.

But, I'm just shooting the breeze. Talking away. Without a care in the world.

Fine print: I am comparing Salon2 vs KEF 201/2 vs B&W 802D vs Orion vs Phil's, not some Bose.

You are missing the point. It is not a two-way street.

With your bias, a DBT will not remove it.

In other words, how can we test you and not have your bias get in the way?

 

[cschang]

Okay, so after all this, I just want to clarify something. I think all ultra accurate speakers will reproduce the original sound very accurately. A violin will sound like a violin. A piano will sound like a piano. A horn will sound like a horn, etc.

In absolute critical listening w/ instant switching, I think we might be able to tell the difference. But in all other cases, I find it difficult to tell the difference in midrange & treble.

Now comparing ultra accurate speakers vs less accurate/ more colored speakers is another thing.

You have to define what "accurate" means.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You are missing the point. It is not a two-way street.

With your bias, a DBT will not remove it.

In other words, how can we test you and not have your bias get in the way?

So your point is that DBT will not remove either bias?

One bias is that they are significantly different. One bias is that that are not significantly different?

You have a point. I mean people will go into any study with their own ideas based on their experiences.