Aperion Verus Grand and Ascend Sierra Tower

[AcuDefTechGuy]

get the RAAL tweeter. Yeah, it's that good.

Has anyone done a single-blinded comparison between the RAAL vs the regular dome tweeter? Whether it's Ascend vs Ascend or Salk vs Salk?

 

[Tomorrow]

Has anyone done a single-blinded comparison between the RAAL vs the regular dome tweeter? Whether it's Ascend vs Ascend or Salk vs Salk?

I have, and I know of a few others. They're on here. I think they would all opt for the RAAL.

Hmmm, why don't you just buy a couple of pairs of something and try it out for yourself? After all, what matters is what you think about them for your tastes.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have, and I know of a few others. They're on here. I think they would all opt for the RAAL.

Hmmm, why don't you just buy a couple of pairs of something and try it out for yourself? After all, what matters is what you think about them for your tastes.

I've tried many times to tell the difference in the treble between the RAAL in the Phil3 vs the dome tweeter on the Focal 826V vs Dynaudio X32. I can't tell much of a significant difference.

And I know that some Ascend Sierra fans have said they preferred the dome over the RAAL.

But none that I know of are really blinded comparisons. I think people knew which speaker was playing.

 

[fuzz092888]

Has anyone done a single-blinded comparison between the RAAL vs the regular dome tweeter? Whether it's Ascend vs Ascend or Salk vs Salk?

I know Dennis has written about the differences between soft dome and fountek multiple times when talking about the ER18's and then compared the fountek and RAAL a few times when talking about the Phil 1 compared to the Phil 2/3. The general impression I got was that they're all excellent drivers, but the RAAL gives the most accurate reproduction of HF sounds with excellent off axis response.

Then again the soft dome for the ER18 isn't exactly in the same league, price or performance wise as the RAAL.

I know it's not the comparison you're looking for, but I notice a pretty large difference between the domes on the Source Technology towers I have and the RAAL, with the heavy preference being given to the RAAL. However, when listening to the E-41B's The preference isn't nearly as clear. I would need to sit and critically listen to both side by side to say one way or the other. In that sense I think the choice of tweeter isn't nearly as clear and that soft domes can definitely get a large portion of the performance of the RAAL (at least without side by side comparison) for a fraction of the price. IMHO, YMMV and all that

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know Dennis has written about the differences between soft dome and fountek multiple times when talking about the ER18's and then compared the fountek and RAAL a few times when talking about the Phil 1 compared to the Phil 2/3. The general impression I got was that they're all excellent drivers, but the RAAL gives the most accurate reproduction of HF sounds with excellent off axis response.

Then again the soft dome for the ER18 isn't exactly in the same league, price or performance wise as the RAAL.

I did a comparison between the Phil3 vs KEF 201/2 with instant (3 seconds) switching & level matching (2 Denon AVRs & music from network Server). Dennis was telling me what the difference should be. I went back and forth for a long long time using that first song on the Phil3 demo CD. I could not tell a significant difference at all between the 2 tweeters.

 

[fuzz092888]

I did a comparison between the Phil3 vs KEF 201/2 with instant (3 seconds) switching & level matching (2 Denon AVRs & music from network Server). Dennis was telling me what the difference should be. I went back and forth for a long long time using that first song on the Phil3 demo CD. I could not tell a significant difference at all between the 2 tweeters.

That makes sense, since I'm pretty sure Dennis has said in the past the it is possible for domes to sound just as good as the RAAL. I forget the reasons he listed as to why he prefers the RAAL, other than its just better

Which reminds me I should hook up those adcom speaker selectors someday........

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That makes sense, since I'm pretty sure Dennis has said in the past the it is possible for domes to sound just as good as the RAAL. I forget the reasons he listed as to why he prefers the RAAL, other than its just better

Which reminds me I should hook up those adcom speaker selectors someday........

What? You sly dawg! You bought those Adcom speaker selectors too?

Have you figured out how you will level match the speakers since the speaker selector does not have level matching?

 

[fuzz092888]

What? You sly dawg! You bought those Adcom speaker selectors too?

Have you figured out how you will level match the speakers since the speaker selector does not have level matching?

I did, but I ended up with three of them instead of just one. Which is fine, I can use them for two different amps I guess. I really wanted the 300 instead of the 3 because the binding posts are normal 5-way and it has a higher power handing. Unfortunately, when some finally came up on ebay it was in a 3 pack. Oh well, the more the merrier

That I haven't figured out yet. As you could probably tell I haven't put much thought into it since they arrived, since they aren't even hooked up. Someday when the subwoofer builds are over I'll figure it out. How do you do it, if you wouldn't mind sharing?

 

[Tomorrow]

ADTG, what is it that you were listening for when you ran the tests...specifically, what instruments, that is? Also the source and the style of music (rock vs. classical for instance) will impact what you're hearing. The RAAL should be more resolving and less ringing than the dome. It's not day or night, but you should notice a difference in the area of 3k-20k Hz.

EDIT: What I note, and particularly enjoy about the RAAL is the air and quiet between the notes. This lack of ringing and overhang is what sold me. Bells and cymbals sound like real bells and cymbals, and not a slur of ringing tones.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I did, but I ended up with three of them instead of just one. Which is fine, I can use them for two different amps I guess. I really wanted the 300 instead of the 3 because the binding posts are normal 5-way and it has a higher power handing. Unfortunately, when some finally came up on ebay it was in a 3 pack. Oh well, the more the merrier

That I haven't figured out yet. As you could probably tell I haven't put much thought into it since they arrived, since they aren't even hooked up. Someday when the subwoofer builds are over I'll figure it out. How do you do it, if you wouldn't mind sharing?

AVRs have these Quick Source selector buttons, right? Each button is for a different Source (DVD, CD, VCR, BD, Satellite, etc). Each source allows you to have different settings on the Speaker Channel Levels.

So I picked a source that I do not need, like DVR1 or whatever. I changed the name from DVR1 to B&W. I used my digital SPL meter and set the CH Levels to 75dB or whatever. Actually I used 80dB, but I'm just different. Then I saved my setting by holding down the Quick Selector Button #2 on my Denon for like 3 seconds.

I repeat these steps for the other speakers (Revel, KEF, TAD, etc). The Button numbers correspond to the Speaker Number on the Adcom selector. So #1 is my KEF on the Adcom & also my Denon. # 2 is my B&W for both Adcom & Denon. #3 is my Revel, etc.

Now each speaker is level matched. I also wrote down all my settings in my Google Drive (online) just in case I have to redo it.

DENON AVP*A1HD & AVR*5308:
All Channels Set to 80.0dB, Sub1 & Sub2 Set to 83.0dB Each Minimum
KEF 201/2
FL+7.0 C+4.5 FR+7.0 SR+6.5 SL+6.5 SW1+3.0 SW2+2.5
B&W 802D2
FL*0.5 C+4.5 FR+0.0 SR+6.5 SL+6.5 SW1+3.0 SW2+2.5
TAD 2201 (Same exact loudness as the B&W 802D2) FL*0.5 C+4.5 FR+0.0 SR+6.5 SL+6.5 SW1+3.0 SW2+2.5
REVEL SALON2
FL+3.5 C+4.5 FR+4.0 SR+6.5 SL+6.5 SW1+3.0 SW2+2.5
LINKWITZ ORION3
FL+5.0 FR+4.5 SW1+5.0 SW2+5.5


DENON AVR*3312:
All Channels Set to 80.0dB, SW Set to 86.0dB Minimum
DYNAUDIO X32 FL+8.0 FR+7.5 SW*8.0
FOCAL 826V
FL+5.5 FR+6.0 SW*8.0
PHILHARMONIC 3 FL+11.0 FR+10.0 SW*8.0
ATC SCM7
FL+12.0 FR+12.0 SW*8.0

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG, what is it that you were listening for when you ran the tests...specifically, what instruments, that is? Also the source and the style of music (rock vs. classical for instance) will impact what you're hearing. The RAAL should be more resolving and less ringing than the dome. It's not day or night, but you should notice a difference in the area of 3k-20k Hz.

EDIT: What I note, and particularly enjoy about the RAAL is the air and quiet between the notes. This lack of ringing and overhang is what sold me. Bells and cymbals sound like real bells and cymbals, and not a slur of ringing tones.

Dennis Murphy told me to use the first song on the Philharmonic demo CD that came with my Phil3. It has cymbals and such.

I also listened to songs like Time After Time (Eva Cassidy) and Superman (Five For Fighting) and some others.

 

[fuzz092888]

Duhhh, of course. That makes perfect sense. Thanks

AVRs have these Quick Source selector buttons, right? Each button is for a different Source (DVD, CD, VCR, BD, Satellite, etc). Each source allows you to have different settings on the Speaker Channel Levels.

So I picked a source that I do not need, like DVR1 or whatever. I changed the name from DVR1 to B&W. I used my digital SPL meter and set the CH Levels to 75dB or whatever. Actually I used 80dB, but I'm just different. Then I saved my setting by holding down the Quick Selector Button #2 on my Denon for like 3 seconds.

I repeat these steps for the other speakers (Revel, KEF, TAD, etc). The Button numbers correspond to the Speaker Number on the Adcom selector. So #1 is my KEF on the Adcom & also my Denon. # 2 is my B&W for both Adcom & Denon. #3 is my Revel, etc.

Now each speaker is level matched. I also wrote down all my settings in my Google Drive (online) just in case I have to redo it.

DENON AVP*A1HD & AVR*5308:
All Channels Set to 80.0dB, Sub1 & Sub2 Set to 83.0dB Each Minimum
KEF 201/2
FL+7.0 C+4.5 FR+7.0 SR+6.5 SL+6.5 SW1+3.0 SW2+2.5
B&W 802D2
FL*0.5 C+4.5 FR+0.0 SR+6.5 SL+6.5 SW1+3.0 SW2+2.5
TAD 2201 (Same exact loudness as the B&W 802D2) FL*0.5 C+4.5 FR+0.0 SR+6.5 SL+6.5 SW1+3.0 SW2+2.5
REVEL SALON2
FL+3.5 C+4.5 FR+4.0 SR+6.5 SL+6.5 SW1+3.0 SW2+2.5
LINKWITZ ORION3
FL+5.0 FR+4.5 SW1+5.0 SW2+5.5


DENON AVR*3312:
All Channels Set to 80.0dB, SW Set to 86.0dB Minimum
DYNAUDIO X32 FL+8.0 FR+7.5 SW*8.0
FOCAL 826V
FL+5.5 FR+6.0 SW*8.0
PHILHARMONIC 3 FL+11.0 FR+10.0 SW*8.0
ATC SCM7
FL+12.0 FR+12.0 SW*8.0

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Duhhh, of course. That makes perfect sense. Thanks

Oh, I forgot one thing. When I push the Quick Select Button, it chooses the speaker I want. But then I use the Source Knob to change to source back to the ACTUAL source that I'm listening or watching. But using the Source Knob does NOT change the Speaker Channel Levels. Only pressing the Quick Select Buttons changes the Speaker Ch Levels.

 

[fuzz092888]

I'll have to look into it and see if my Onkyo can do that. Actually now that I think about it I'm not sure channels levels can be source dependent. Hmmm

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'll have to look into it and see if my Onkyo can do that. Actually now that I think about it I'm not sure channels levels can be source dependent. Hmmm

Well, just try it out. Hopefully all these AVRs are kind of the same.

But if Onkyo cannot do this, that would be another Minus in my book.

 

[fuzz092888]

Well, just try it out. Hopefully all these AVRs are kind of the same.

But if Onkyo cannot do this, that would be another Minus in my book.

Haha, well I can't say I've been disappointed with the Onkyo. I ended up liking it a lot more than I thought I would and has been rock solid. However, since my use of Audyssey has waned, I'll almost definitely be switching back to Marantz for my next AVR/pre pro.

 

[cschang]

EDIT: What I note, and particularly enjoy about the RAAL is the air and quiet between the notes. This lack of ringing and overhang is what sold me. Bells and cymbals sound like real bells and cymbals, and not a slur of ringing tones.

This shows in Ascend's measurement comparison between its proprietary NrT tweeter and the RAAL 70-20XR.

 

[cschang]

I really do think it's a toss up with Philharmonic, Salk, & Ascend as far as midrange & tweeter sound quality - any given day, regardless of price. The difference will be the bass.

I haven't heard a Phil, so I can't comment on those, but I have heard Salk Songtowers and Sierra Towers, both with standard dome tweeters, side by side with instant level matched switching, and while the bass does have different characteristics in each, as well as the midrange, the imaging differences between the two was more distinct IMO.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...the RAAL is the air and quiet between the notes. This lack of ringing and overhang is what sold me. Bells and cymbals sound like real bells and cymbals, and not a slur of ringing tones.

This shows in Ascend's measurement comparison between its proprietary NrT tweeter and the RAAL 70-20XR.

So just by looking at the measurements, you can tell all that?

 

[cschang]

Hi Curtis. Which one do you think sounded the most natural?

I think both sound VERY natural.