Anthem MRX 1140 vs Denon AVR-X8500H

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I've had great service from Denon and Marantz. They sent me a calibration mic for free when my original got chewed by my puppy.

Well, Denon did that. I've had my Marantz for 5 years now and never had a hint of a problem. My Denon before that I had for almost ten years with no problems. It's still in service at my neighbor's as a matter of fact.

Yeah, I guess with most things it does come down to luck for reliability. Naturally, most people will continue to own what they have always owned. Whatever works best for the owner is the right choice.

I do hope that Sound United makes the Denon/Marantz brand even more solid than ever. I also have not heard any complaints from my clients about their Denon/Marantz products over the past 5 years.

 

[ryanosaur]

For all of my bluster, I do really hope that Yamaha gets their house in order, and that Onkyo even shows us they are worthy of putting into this category.
Competition is good. Robust competition is better still!
If these companies playing in the upscale consumer (not luxury or installation) market can get things right and push themselves as they should, then we the consumers will benefit from better product across the board.
That SU is coming out swinging with this new Denon 1700, which is supposed to work the way all of the x700 series were, is a sign that they recognize the fight is real and bodes well for the SU releases nest year!

 

[snakeeyes]

For all of my bluster, I do really hope that Yamaha gets their house in order, and that Onkyo even shows us they are worthy of putting into this category.
Competition is good. Robust competition is better still!
If these companies playing in the upscale consumer (not luxury or installation) market can get things right and push themselves as they should, then we the consumers will benefit from better product across the board.
That SU is coming out swinging with this new Denon 1700, which is supposed to work the way all of the x700 series were, is a sign that they recognize the fight is real and bodes well for the SU releases nest year!

So when you get your Xbox or PS5 for your future Sound United AVR with HDMI 2.1, are you getting a bigger TV?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So when you get your Xbox or PS5 for your future Sound United AVR with HDMI 2.1, are you getting a bigger TV?

Audio-Video is the name of the game. After audio, gotta get that Video in order.

 

[ryanosaur]

So when you get your Xbox or PS5 for your future Sound United AVR with HDMI 2.1, are you getting a bigger TV?

Damn... Almost 3 years later and your still on my tip about the 49" Sony!

I have been considering this. Was thinking I might pull the trigger this year, but AVR Enthu made a great point about the chips in the TVs still being questionable. But the 65" X90J is on sale 1200. I bought my X900 for 1G on sale in 2018.
It will fit between the Phils, too.
But I'm not gonna lie, gaming on a bigger screen is harder. Even on our 55" X850C, I would miss things flashing on screen for short moments.
(21st century problems!)
But, ya, I'm thinking Holidays next year, new TV, and unless Sony screws the pooch, it'll be another X90.

As for Denon and Marantz... they just need to come correct and give me a reason. HTP-1, maybe Anthem AVM90 or JBL SDP-58 would be considered, as long as they are functioning properly.

Time will tell.

 

[snakeeyes]

Damn... Almost 3 years later and your still on my tip about the 49" Sony!

I have been considering this. Was thinking I might pull the trigger this year, but AVR Enthu made a great point about the chips in the TVs still being questionable. But the 65" X90J is on sale 1200. I bought my X900 for 1G on sale in 2018.
It will fit between the Phils, too.
But I'm not gonna lie, gaming on a bigger screen is harder. Even on our 55" X850C, I would miss things flashing on screen for short moments.
(21st century problems!)
But, ya, I'm thinking Holidays next year, new TV, and unless Sony screws the pooch, it'll be another X90.

As for Denon and Marantz... they just need to come correct and give me a reason. HTP-1, maybe Anthem AVM90 or JBL SDP-58 would be considered, as long as they are functioning properly.

Time will tell.

Ya you guys all bugged me until I got Atmos installed too! Only took me 2 years of research…. LOL I mean between 2017 and 2020 I had to start over with a 2017 65in TV, new AVR, new Subwoofer, and all new speakers too.

I definitely feel like buying a new bigger TV is what pulls some of us forward. For others it’s the newest game console that starts the upgrade process.

I won’t lie. I do stare just a little too long at those LG 77in OLED TVs at Costco as I pass by. LOL

 

[ryanosaur]

Ya you guys all bugged me until I got Atmos installed too! Only took me 2 years of research…. LOL I mean between 2017 and 2020 I had to start over with a 2017 65in TV, new AVR, new Subwoofer, and all new speakers too.

I definitely feel like buying a new bigger TV is what pulls some of us forward. For others it’s the newest game console that starts the upgrade process.

I won’t lie. I do stare just a little too long at those LG 77in OLED TVs at Costco as I pass by. LOL

I dig it. Back in 2018, the TV was lowest priority. It still is, for me, but my ratio is changing now that the Lady has made a little peace with my rig. We just finished watching all 8 Harry Potters, for example.
But at this rate, I wanna make certain I'm on good footing for 5-10 years with any upgrades I make, so making certain the HDMI issue is fully sorted ins my biggest need.

 

[PENG]

Nothing definite yet re the upgrade so that's why I posted this question to get advice and opinions. But if I do get a Denon again I might just choose the X6700H instead of the X8500H. So now I'm actually just choosing between the X6700H vs the MRX1140. The upgrade will be more for the features if ever.
The one thing I like about the Denon is that it has Auro 3D while in the MRX1140 it's the flexibility to do calibrations using ARC. I'm just at a lost on which one to choose if I do decide to upgrade. If only the MRX1140 also had Auro 3D hands down I would choose it right away coz I really do wanna try other brands other than Denon.

If I remember right the X8500H can hook up 15 speakers such that you can switch between Auro3D and Atmos. Do you know if the X6700H can do that? If it can, then I would say the X6700H is a better choice, for the price.

 

[snakeeyes]

I dig it. Back in 2018, the TV was lowest priority. It still is, for me, but my ratio is changing now that the Lady has made a little peace with my rig. We just finished watching all 8 Harry Potters, for example.
But at this rate, I wanna make certain I'm on good footing for 5-10 years with any upgrades I make, so making certain the HDMI issue is fully sorted ins my biggest need.

Ya I think I’ll have enough saved up for a big TV in the next year or so.

My perspective is that I only need to keep up with whatever my TV that I purchase can do. Nobody knows what extra feature will pop up that could make HDMI 2.1 obsolete and require HDMI2.1B or HDMI2.2 etc. on future TVs in the year 2030 etc. Same with HDR formats or broadcasts in HLG etc.

 

[ciotime]

Another factor to consider is customer service. I would call each company (Anthem, Denon, Yamaha, etc.) and ask customer support what you would have to do if your unit malfunctioned.

How much would you have to spend to for shipping? Is there a local shop?

For example, Yamaha normally will email you a pre-paid shipping label to ship to Yamaha. They may even ship you a free box if you loss your box.

Actually here in my country all the Denon Marantz & Anthem are being sold/distributed by 1 company. So any issues will be handled by just a single entity. Minor issues I suppose they can fix but major one's I guess if under warranty they will replace.

 

[ciotime]

So your main interest is the DSP upmixer, not the actual discrete Atmos vs discrete Auro3D vs discrete DTSX?

Most contents are for Atmos, very little are DTSX, and nothing for Auro3D in the North America.

It's actually the Auro 3D upmixer ( Auromatic ) that's got me interested. It's in some of the Denons but not in the Anthems. The best I've seen so far that has all of them ( Atmos Auro3D Dirac ) is StormAudio...just too pricey. There are rumors though that the Onkyo will release the $3K TX- RZ90 (13.2 channels with Auro3D+ 450$ for multichannel DLBC license) early next year.
Heck if worst comes to worst might just get the StormAudio...as they say " buy once cry once "

 

[ciotime]

I just had a crazy idea. Bear with me and see if this might work. Since I wanna try both Auro3D and ARC/Dirac
why not go get both Denon X6700H ( has Auro3D ) and MRX1140/AVM70 ( uses ARC ) instead of spending about $11k
for the StormAudio ISP Core 16 which has both Auro3D and Dirac? With both the Denon+Anthem costing about $6k
I still save about $5K. That way I can use the Denon if I want to use the Auromatic upmixer and I can use the
Anthem if I wanna use the ARC room correction.

So if you think it'll work now the question is how do I hook these up while using the same sets of speakers?
Do I need a speaker wire switcher or something?

Is it possible to use the AVM70 or the MRX1140 as a prepro and the Denon becomes the external power amp? If so
then if I wanna use the auromatic upmixer in the Denon the Anthem is OFF while the Denon then acts as the AVR?
And if I wanna watch Dolby Atmos content using the Anthem as the processor the Denon serves as the external amp?
Also if done this way where do I hook up my HDMI sources to ( 4K player/media player ) ?
Also seems like the Denon only as pre outs but no multi-channel inputs.

 

[PENG]

I just had a crazy idea. Bear with me and see if this might work. Since I wanna try both Auro3D and ARC/Dirac
why not go get both Denon X6700H ( has Auro3D ) and MRX1140/AVM70 ( uses ARC ) instead of spending about $11k
for the StormAudio ISP Core 16 which has both Auro3D and Dirac? With both the Denon+Anthem costing about $6k
I still save about $5K. That way I can use the Denon if I want to use the Auromatic upmixer and I can use the
Anthem if I wanna use the ARC room correction.

So if you think it'll work now the question is how do I hook these up while using the same sets of speakers?
Do I need a speaker wire switcher or something?

Is it possible to use the AVM70 or the MRX1140 as a prepro and the Denon becomes the external power amp? If so
then if I wanna use the auromatic upmixer in the Denon the Anthem is OFF while the Denon then acts as the AVR?
And if I wanna watch Dolby Atmos content using the Anthem as the processor the Denon serves as the external amp?
Also if done this way where do I hook up my HDMI sources to ( 4K player/media player ) ?
Also seems like the Denon only as pre outs but no multi-channel inputs.

Another idea, why not try and convince your dealer to let you try both and promise you will not return both?

Then you can find out if AARC really could make a better difference for you. In my opinion, Audyssey (using the App to adjust to you taste or to at least customize the curve the AARC's) and AARC will produce a difference visually on the screen, but no one can hear a difference when watching an Atmos or Auro3D movie, let alone hearing a preferred "sound quality". It's just not going to happen in a controlled DBT or even SBT.
From what I can see, DL may have an edge in theory, but I don't see the same for AARC at all. Why would it do any better, and last I checked (could be wrong) it is still PEQ based only. The main appeal (to me..) has been the PC based interface so there are much more flexibility for those who like to play, but with the availability of the MultEQ Editor App and Ratbuddyssey, I no longer consider the PC based UI an advantage.

I know each has their followers (or fanboys, to be more precise..), but show me something based on studies such as those conducted by Harman years ago, or at least hard evidence on paper. I spent hours searching for such evidence and found only anecdotal subjective reviews without hard evidence, or with limited REW (or similar) graphs presented by self proclaimed experts.

Just ask @AcuDefTechGuy about Room EQ, I think half the time he may not even bother using any!! Or ask Dr. Toole and Dr. Sean. And I have been around AH long enough to know ADTG is the only one, for example, the respected TLSGuy might not think a whole lot about any Room EQ, DL, AARC, Trinnov or whatever else. You can see why I am so skeptical about people's claims based on their subjective experience. Remember, they spent the extra $, so they are biased and have to justify the spending to themselves..

For sure DL, Audyssey and AARC will be effective in levelling and shaping to some extent the range from 20-300 Hz (or lower). Whether one can hear a difference when the same customized target curve is used or not is the question and I know the answer..

By the way, along the same idea that you now have, also consider the far more cost effective option of adding DL using the minidsp add on solution for either AVR. Yes there will be some extra wires you have to hide, but it will cost you a lot less than the Storm audio that is not even HDMI2.1/8K ready at this point (not a factor obviously if that doesn't bother you at all.

For the price of the Storm audio, I hope it will be trouble free for many years. Funny how people would think "separate" AVPs will be so much more reliable than AVRs aside from performing better because AVRs are jammed pack in one box. Just think about how many extra parts/circuitry are packed into the Stormaudio!! It is one thing to cry about a $2,000 unit when it fails, but $20,000? And for "better sound quality", really??

 

[ciotime]

Another idea, why not try and convince your dealer to let you try both and promise you will not return both?

Then you can find out if AARC really could make a better difference for you. In my opinion, Audyssey (using the App to adjust to you taste or to at least customize the curve the AARC's) and AARC will produce a difference visually on the screen, but no one can hear a difference when watching an Atmos or Auro3D movie, let alone hearing a preferred "sound quality". It's just not going to happen in a controlled DBT or even SBT.
From what I can see, DL may have an edge in theory, but I don't see the same for AARC at all. Why would it do any better, and last I checked (could be wrong) it is still PEQ based only. The main appeal (to me..) has been the PC based interface so there are much more flexibility for those who like to play, but with the availability of the MultEQ Editor App and Ratbuddyssey, I no longer consider the PC based UI an advantage.

I know each has their followers (or fanboys, to be more precise..), but show me something based on studies such as those conducted by Harman years ago, or at least hard evidence on paper. I spent hours searching for such evidence and found only anecdotal subjective reviews without hard evidence, or with limited REW (or similar) graphs presented by self proclaimed experts.

Just ask @AcuDefTechGuy about Room EQ, I think half the time he may not even bother using any!! Or ask Dr. Toole and Dr. Sean. And I have been around AH long enough to know ADTG is the only one, for example, the respected TLSGuy might not think a whole lot about any Room EQ, DL, AARC, Trinnov or whatever else. You can see why I am so skeptical about people's claims based on their subjective experience. Remember, they spent the extra $, so they are biased and have to justify the spending to themselves..

For sure DL, Audyssey and AARC will be effective in levelling and shaping to some extent the range from 20-300 Hz (or lower). Whether one can hear a difference when the same customized target curve is used or not is the question and I know the answer..

By the way, along the same idea that you now have, also consider the far more cost effective option of adding DL using the minidsp add on solution for either AVR. Yes there will be some extra wires you have to hide, but it will cost you a lot less than the Storm audio that is not even HDMI2.1/8K ready at this point (not a factor obviously if that doesn't bother you at all.

For the price of the Storm audio, I hope it will be trouble free for many years. Funny how people would think "separate" AVPs will be so much more reliable than AVRs aside from performing better because AVRs are jammed pack in one box. Just think about how many extra parts/circuitry are packed into the Stormaudio!! It is one thing to cry about a $2,000 unit when it fails, but $20,000? And for "better sound quality", really??

Thanks for the wisdom as always Peng. What you said re the DL/AARC/Audyssey is quite true. If one puts all the curves the same way it really doesn't matter what room correction is being used.
About convincing my dealer to let me try both unfortunately here in my country once you order an item it's considered sold. There's no such thing as a trial period or return policy unless the unit's defective.
Also re the more cost effective option of adding DL using the minidsp add on solution for either AVR that you mentioned yes I did take a look at the minidsp website but I can't seem to choose which is the correct unit. Is it the DDRC-88A or the DDRC-8D? They both have 8xIN, 8xOUT. So if I wanna do Dirac live on my current 7.3.4 system that means I would need 2 DDRC's?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Another idea, why not try and convince your dealer to let you try both and promise you will not return both?

Then you can find out if AARC really could make a better difference for you. In my opinion, Audyssey (using the App to adjust to you taste or to at least customize the curve the AARC's) and AARC will produce a difference visually on the screen, but no one can hear a difference when watching an Atmos or Auro3D movie, let alone hearing a preferred "sound quality". It's just not going to happen in a controlled DBT or even SBT.
From what I can see, DL may have an edge in theory, but I don't see the same for AARC at all. Why would it do any better, and last I checked (could be wrong) it is still PEQ based only. The main appeal (to me..) has been the PC based interface so there are much more flexibility for those who like to play, but with the availability of the MultEQ Editor App and Ratbuddyssey, I no longer consider the PC based UI an advantage.

I know each has their followers (or fanboys, to be more precise..), but show me something based on studies such as those conducted by Harman years ago, or at least hard evidence on paper. I spent hours searching for such evidence and found only anecdotal subjective reviews without hard evidence, or with limited REW (or similar) graphs presented by self proclaimed experts.

Just ask @AcuDefTechGuy about Room EQ, I think half the time he may not even bother using any!! Or ask Dr. Toole and Dr. Sean. And I have been around AH long enough to know ADTG is the only one, for example, the respected TLSGuy might not think a whole lot about any Room EQ, DL, AARC, Trinnov or whatever else. You can see why I am so skeptical about people's claims based on their subjective experience. Remember, they spent the extra $, so they are biased and have to justify the spending to themselves..

For sure DL, Audyssey and AARC will be effective in levelling and shaping to some extent the range from 20-300 Hz (or lower). Whether one can hear a difference when the same customized target curve is used or not is the question and I know the answer..

By the way, along the same idea that you now have, also consider the far more cost effective option of adding DL using the minidsp add on solution for either AVR. Yes there will be some extra wires you have to hide, but it will cost you a lot less than the Storm audio that is not even HDMI2.1/8K ready at this point (not a factor obviously if that doesn't bother you at all.

For the price of the Storm audio, I hope it will be trouble free for many years. Funny how people would think "separate" AVPs will be so much more reliable than AVRs aside from performing better because AVRs are jammed pack in one box. Just think about how many extra parts/circuitry are packed into the Stormaudio!! It is one thing to cry about a $2,000 unit when it fails, but $20,000? And for "better sound quality", really??

I have heard Anthem ARC, Dirac, Lyngdorf, Bohmer, Audyssey, YPAO.

My conclusion is that they don’t do anything for me. The best case is that they don’t make things sound any worse above 200Hz

The only frequencies that seem to improve to me is below 200Hz. And I don’t need ARC, Dirac or Trinnov for that.

When I was using the Denon AVP-A1HD and AVR-5308, Audyssey Dynamic EQ did an awesome job below 200Hz.

Now with Yamaha, I just use manual PEQ for below 200Hz.

So I do feel a great need to EQ below 200Hz to get the best possible bass. But I think I shouldn’t mess with frequencies above 200Hz.

My conclusion is that I think all these auto room EQ depends on personal preference.

That’s why some people swear that YPAO sounds better, while some swear that Audyssey sounds better or ARC or Dirac or Trinnov or Lyngdorf sounds better.

I have clients who have owned AVP with Audyssey (Marantz), ARC (Anthem), and Dirac (Monoprice) and they swear that Bohmer Room Correction sounds the best and they were willing to buy Legacy Audio speakers that cost $55K that use the Bohmer room correction.

The only thing that is for certain is that everyone feels differently about all these auto room EQ.

Another thing that is for certain is that a lot of guys want to spend a lot of money, especially when they are “younger”. We’ve been there.

 

[ciotime]

I have heard Anthem ARC, Dirac, Lyngdorf, Bohmer, Audyssey, YPAO.

My conclusion is that they don’t do anything for me. The best case is that they don’t make things sound any worse above 200Hz

The only frequencies that seem to improve to me is below 200Hz. And I don’t need ARC, Dirac or Trinnov for that.

When I was using the Denon AVP-A1HD and AVR-5308, Audyssey Dynamic EQ did an awesome job below 200Hz.

Now with Yamaha, I just use manual PEQ for below 200Hz.

So I do feel a great need to EQ below 200Hz to get the best possible bass. But I think I shouldn’t mess with frequencies above 200Hz.

My conclusion is that I think all these auto room EQ depends on personal preference.

That’s why some people swear that YPAO sounds better, while some swear that Audyssey sounds better or ARC or Dirac or Trinnov or Lyngdorf sounds better.

I have clients who have owned AVP with Audyssey (Marantz), ARC (Anthem), and Dirac (Monoprice) and they swear that Bohmer Room Correction sounds the best and they were willing to buy Legacy Audio speakers that cost $55K that use the Bohmer room correction.

The only thing that is for certain is that everyone feels differently about all these auto room EQ.

Which begs that question why spend an enormous amount on Trinnov? Does the law of diminishing returns apply here?

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks for the wisdom as always Peng. What you said re the DL/AARC/Audyssey is quite true. If one puts all the curves the same way it really doesn't matter what room correction is being used.
About convincing my dealer to let me try both unfortunately here in my country once you order an item it's considered sold. There's no such thing as a trial period or return policy unless the unit's defective.
Also re the more cost effective option of adding DL using the minidsp add on solution for either AVR that you mentioned yes I did take a look at the minidsp website but I can't seem to choose which is the correct unit. Is it the DDRC-88A or the DDRC-8D? They both have 8xIN, 8xOUT. So if I wanna do Dirac live on my current 7.3.4 system that means I would need 2 DDRC's?

On just a quick perusal, the DDRC-88A is most likely the one you want. They specifically call out the D variant as for live sound and digital cinema.
I have seen several people use the 88A in their systems, too. None, the 88D.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Which begs that question why spend an enormous amount on Trinnov? Does the law of diminishing returns apply here?

Every company wants a piece of the pie. And when people spend that kind of money, I have to wonder if money plays a huge part of that bias.

when people spend $86K on some Legacy Audio speakers with Bohmer Room Correction, I wonder if that $86,000 plays a role.

Same thing with those $80K JBL speaker systems. Trinnov costs a lot of money - like $20K or more? I wonder if that $20K plays a role.

Now that you can get a “cheap” NAD AVR or cheap Onkyo with Dirac, I bet the “appeal” with Dirac will diminish.

A $1K or $2K Dirac cannot possibly beat a $20K Trinnov. And a $20K Trinnov cannot possibly beat a $90K Legacy Audio Bohmer or JBL.

Like I said in another thread, mo money = mo sound.

 

[ryanosaur]

Which begs that question why spend an enormous amount on Trinnov? Does the law of diminishing returns apply here?

Yes, unless you have the kind of bank accounts that allow purchases like that to not effect your quality of living. Then, with disposable income like that, there are no diminishing returns.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the wisdom as always Peng. What you said re the DL/AARC/Audyssey is quite true. If one puts all the curves the same way it really doesn't matter what room correction is being used.
About convincing my dealer to let me try both unfortunately here in my country once you order an item it's considered sold. There's no such thing as a trial period or return policy unless the unit's defective.
Also re the more cost effective option of adding DL using the minidsp add on solution for either AVR that you mentioned yes I did take a look at the minidsp website but I can't seem to choose which is the correct unit. Is it the DDRC-88A or the DDRC-8D? They both have 8xIN, 8xOUT. So if I wanna do Dirac live on my current 7.3.4 system that means I would need 2 DDRC's?

Tell you the truth, while it may be selfish on my part I would hope you go for the Anthem, play with AARC until you get good at it and then share some REW graphs so we all can see and satisfy some of our curiosity.

I just re-read Gene's review on the new AARC Genesis in 2019 but he still linked to the 2014 interview for some reason.

Anthem ARC Room EQ Interview with Dr. Peter Schuck and Nick Platsis | Audioholics

The key facts appear to be:

Audioholics: What kind of filters does ARC use, and at what resolution (i.e. 1/3 octave, 1/12 octave, etc)?

Dr. Peter Schuck: ARC uses IIR filters that can in principle approach arbitrary resolution, however, since the measurements that ARC uses are smoother in practice, the filters tend to be about 1/12 octave resolution at maximum depending on how smooth the in-room response is.

Audioholics: What is the maximum boost / cut ARC will apply? Is it possible for users to set a limit in this respect (i.e. no more than 3dB of boost)?

Nick Platsis: Boost at any one frequency is up to 6 dB to avoid overloading the amp and speaker. This cannot be adjusted by the user. Nulls are also much less audible than peaks. Cut is any amount needed.



Audioholics: ARC comes with a calibrated, serialized, USB microphone. Are there any limitations with the microphone's measurements or does it measure accurately from 20Hz - 20kHz?

Nick Platsis: It is reliable up to 5 kHz. After that it starts becoming too directional with increasing frequency. Maximum correction range for MRX receivers is 5 kHz. This is the normally recommended setting, and the default, in all versions of ARC and is user adjustable down to 200 Hz. In AVM/D it can be set as high as 20 kHz, but effectiveness of correction at these upper frequencies often depends on whether the tweeters (and mic) are at ear level. A listening test is the best way to find out.

Unless I missed something, for filter type, it is just IIR (like Yamaha's) and in terms of boost limitations, you actually get more flexibility with the MultEQ App. Of course limiting to 6 dB non user adjustable is a safer way, but I prefer to have a higher limit and it is up the users to choose wisely based on their own conditions/requirements.