Anthem AVM 90 15.4CH Processor Review

[Nondemo01]

I would say “some”, not “vast majority” since we haven’t been in the vast majority of homes.

Some will like, some will not.

I disagree. Most of "us", as in audiophiles, not the population, would benefit from RC and is why nearly all of these items include it. I'd be willing to bet if we did a poll, nearly everyone is using and thus, benefiting from it. But that's speculative your honor and purely conjecturing on my part. Cheers.

 

[PENG]

I have been in quite a few recording studios in my time. And all have sounded pretty dreadful to me. I guess it is part and parcel of the pop culture.

As I said I have only tried Audyssey and it has made all my three systems objectively worse. In addition it degrades SNR which I really object to.

This is the room curve of my AV room all channels driven at the MLP, no RC and I am very happy with it. There is a little room gain on the last half octave, but that is not unpleasant. The impulse response did show that Audyssey did an excellent job of setting speaker distance though. So it was not all a wash out.

I'm really happy with the sound, so I leave it well alone.

I think I say this before, if I had a room/speaker curve like this, I would leave it alone too!! I don't want to get into whether the "vast majority" or rooms are as good or not, but yours is very good indeed. I would check more than just one mic position, but a few more around it, say 6 to 12 inches just to see what kind of variations you may be getting, though if it is that good at the mmp, it probably will still be very good when you move your head a few inches in any direction.

 

[PENG]

I disagree. Most of "us", as in audiophiles, not the population, would benefit from RC and is why nearly all of these items include it. I'd be willing to bet if we did a poll, nearly everyone is using and thus, benefiting from it. But that's speculative your honor and purely conjecturing on my part. Cheers.

I know there is practically no chance of convincing ADTG and TLSG on this topic. At least ADTG, over the years seem to agree people might benefit from RC in the bass range, TLSG, no, try convincing him a lot of people will do well using AVRs vs AVP+amps, I wish you luck too if you try haha. Good thing this is just a hobby..lol...

 

[Nondemo01]

I know there is practically no chance of convincing ADTG and TLSG on this topic. At least ADTG, over the years seem to agree people might benefit from RC in the bass range, TLSG, no, try convincing him a lot of people will do well using AVRs vs AVP+amps, I wish you luck too if you try haha. Good thing this is just a hobby..lol...

To quote Agent K from Men in Black: "Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

 

[PENG]

You can convince many people that RC can make their REW measurements look flatter. They can see paper.

But how do you convince people that they shouldn’t like what they like in terms of sound quality? You listen to 2 things (RC vs off) and they either like it or they don’t.

If people say, “Oh I love the way this music sounds!”, do you say, “Oh but you shouldn’t like it because it’s doesn’t measure as flat on REW”?

My simple answer, I don't, didn't, try find me one post in which I told a forum member that he/she would like the sound quality better with RC vs off, and I'll see if I could edit or delete it. I thought you might realize that we are in a way saying something more similar than contradictory. I prefer to just give people the information based on objective data, and let them find out what/how they may or may not experience, subjectively. Many people say most people prefer a tilted bass curve, often referred to as Harman's curve, they probably would puzzle ex Harman people such as Dr. Toole and Olive as I don't believe they have actually suggested a specific bass tilted curve, would it be from 200 Hz down, or higher, lower, and what's slope, shelf shape etc., I don't think they know, or anyone know.

Another example, to someone who said in pure direct mode, using analog inputs, level matched, a Denon A1H, Marantz C30, Yamaha A8A, Anthem AVM90 all sound very different to them (even night and day obvious) in mono or 2 channel stereo, I would tell him to see that based on published and and verified (on the bench) specs, what he/she said may not apply to others, who may perceive something quite different. But I won't tell him anymore than that.

When I said "convincing" I just meant convincing one should not make blanket statements as though they were fact (not talking you either, so please....) that has been posted here on Audioholics.com often enough by some, so I don't need to quote those repeatedly. Same kind of posts but stating as opinions, preference, then I would not have said a thing about them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My simple answer, I don't, didn't, try find me one post in which I told a forum member that he/she would like the sound quality better with RC vs off, and I'll see if I could edit or delete it. I thought you might realize that we are in a way saying something more similar than contradictory. I prefer to just give people the information based on objective data, and let them find out what/how they may or may not experience, subjectively. Many people say most people prefer a tilted bass curve, often referred to as Harman's curve, they probably would puzzle ex Harman people such as Dr. Toole and Olive as I don't believe they have actually suggested a specific bass tilted curve, would it be from 200 Hz down, or higher, lower, and what's slope, shelf shape etc., I don't think they know, or anyone know.

Another example, to someone who said in pure direct mode, using analog inputs, level matched, a Denon A1H, Marantz C30, Yamaha A8A, Anthem AVM90 all sound very different to them (even night and day obvious) in mono or 2 channel stereo, I would tell him to see that based on published and and verified (on the bench) specs, what he/she said may not apply to others, who may perceive something quite different. But I won't tell him anymore than that.

When I said "convincing" I just meant convincing one should not make blanket statements as though they were fact (not talking you either, so please....) that has been posted here on Audioholics.com often enough by some, so I don't need to quote those repeatedly. Same kind of posts but stating as opinions, preference, then I would not have said a thing about them.

Yeah I agree. I was just trying to win the debate.

We agree that RC, even Yamaha YPAO, can make FR more linear. So RC works in doing that.

The rest is up to everyone to decide.

 

[Nondemo01]

I'll just offer that if our speakers gave the same uneven response as some of our rooms, we would revolt in mass. The best RC I've experienced fix frequency and time domain for a fixed listening position, usually the mix seat. Much more difficult with "home theater". Not sure which of the consumer products gets the closest and perhaps that's a great topic for Matt, Gene, and James (if they haven't already done it.) I have seen Trinnov in studios and spoke to many that feel that's "the best". Even home studios now consult with acousticians and combined with architects, create a space that STILL requires treatment. I just go back to these manufactures don't tend to "toss $ out the window" and put effort behind RC for the average user to benefit. Don't like/need? Keep it off. But I bet if Marantz stopped including the free versions of Audessey or Dirac, we'd complain all over these forums of price gouging. Many already do. ASR is full of the "I can get a DAC, amp, DSP, HDMI switcher for $XXXX.XX that does the same thing." Anyway, good discussions.

 

[buckchester]

Thank you for this review. It is very detailed. I will admit, when I first started reading it, I thought it read a little like a marketing sheet. After reading through the coments, I have come to realize that Theo makes an interesting case for the sound quality differences he believes to have heard.

I do wonder though if he and the other listeners could repeated these results upon further analysis. However, it's clear much more work has gone into this review than most others you read on the internet. I would love to have the ability to listen to different products like this myself without having to buy them.

I do remain sceptical though. Just based on my own experience. I've bought several amps and dacs over the years that internet reviewers claimed to hear a difference with. When I first started doing that, I thought I could hear a difference too. But once that "shiny new toy" syndrome wore off, I could simply not convince myself that I could hear a difference.

Forgive me if this is a mistake, but didn't Theo also claim to hear a difference with those gaia isolation feet? Maybe I'm wrong, but that was a bit of a tough one to believe. And I'm not claiming he's lying. Maybe he truthfully thought there was a difference. I guess I'd really have to experience it for myself under proper listening comparison conditions to believe it.

 

[Golfx]

Thank you for this review. It is very detailed. I will admit, when I first started reading it, I thought it read a little like a marketing sheet. After reading through the coments, I have come to realize that Theo makes an interesting case for the sound quality differences he believes to have heard.

I do wonder though if he and the other listeners could repeated these results upon further analysis. However, it's clear much more work has gone into this review than most others you read on the internet. I would love to have the ability to listen to different products like this myself without having to buy them.

I do remain sceptical though. Just based on my own experience. I've bought several amps and dacs over the years that internet reviewers claimed to hear a difference with. When I first started doing that, I thought I could hear a difference too. But once that "shiny new toy" syndrome wore off, I could simply not convince myself that I could hear a difference.

Forgive me if this is a mistake, but didn't Theo also claim to hear a difference with those gaia isolation feet? Maybe I'm wrong, but that was a bit of a tough one to believe. And I'm not claiming he's lying. Maybe he truthfully thought there was a difference. I guess I'd really have to experience it for myself under proper listening comparison conditions to believe it.

In support of Theo, I would say people can listen to sounds and music with different frames of mind. When I am in a good mood, oh my gosh, music sounds wonderful and full of nuance. The concept of bias is well known and clearly alters perceptions in humans—hence the blind A/B comparisons vs sighted comparisons. But not being a reviewer, I have fewer items to hear with which to compare. I believe the more items you hear the more you will prefer subtle differences to others. Math derived from microphone measurements presents details that can be seen. Hearing those math details is entirely different and makes this hobby and reviewers’ profession interesting.

 

[PENG]

Thank you for this review. It is very detailed. I will admit, when I first started reading it, I thought it read a little like a marketing sheet. After reading through the coments, I have come to realize that Theo makes an interesting case for the sound quality differences he believes to have heard.

I do wonder though if he and the other listeners could repeated these results upon further analysis. However, it's clear much more work has gone into this review than most others you read on the internet. I would love to have the ability to listen to different products like this myself without having to buy them.

I do remain sceptical though. Just based on my own experience. I've bought several amps and dacs over the years that internet reviewers claimed to hear a difference with. When I first started doing that, I thought I could hear a difference too. But once that "shiny new toy" syndrome wore off, I could simply not convince myself that I could hear a difference.

Forgive me if this is a mistake, but didn't Theo also claim to hear a difference with those gaia isolation feet? Maybe I'm wrong, but that was a bit of a tough one to believe. And I'm not claiming he's lying. Maybe he truthfully thought there was a difference. I guess I'd really have to experience it for myself under proper listening comparison conditions to believe it.

Yeah, I also wonder the same... On the other hand, it is so interesting that there are no (or rarely) arguments, or say, skepticism among popular audio forum goers about whether speakers, different recordings of the same song would sound different to most people. For amps, there are tons, never ending such debates, a little less for AVRs and AVPs those many would qualify their claims on things like a) "in pure direct mode", b) "with RC engaged, or not", c) "digital, or analog inputs" etc. It also seems to have much fewer believers in DAC chips making audible differences once you get pass the really cheap entry level DACS, except on forums such as ASR and some audiophile forums for headphone users (mostly).

I don't like to comment on b) and c) but on a) I would, and had, offer my own spin. One thing that I noticed has change over the years has been that when I auditioned amps without DSP used, in my earlier years I would be so impressed by the perceived sound quality in high end dealer demo rooms, listening to >$5K amps, and speakers >$10K, to the point I would be almost depressed to hear my own setups at home. That's when I was using satellite, bookshelf and even a couple good quality tower speakers. In more recent years, when I stepped in a little better gear such as Denon AVR-3805, 4308, AV7005, AV8801, AVR-X4400H, with and without external amps of >200 W/300W 8/4 ohms or more, and better speakers such as Focal 1028Be, KEFR900, while they still cost a fraction of those I demoed in dealers, I no longer found the difference in perceived sound quality is significant at all. I would say that I could hear better overall quality from say the Mc1.25kW monoblock driving the big original KEF Blade, but less than two weeks ago when I was listening to an $15,000 Mc integrated amp driving a pair of $20,000 (all approx list prices) Sonus Faber towers, I was not really more impressed than my low end Marantz vintage pair or my cheap Purifi amp driving my relatively cheap 1028 Be.

In fact the next day, when I thought memory was still fresh, I did some listening to my system using the same kind of music genres used in the Mc demo room, and indeed I was still very satisfied with my own, without any desire to go through the trouble of upgrading those beautiful Mc amps.

So, in my most recent subjective sound quality assessment, I couldn't say for sure if my own amps would sound different than those expensive McIntosh amps in my setup but I am quite confident that the difference would not wow me enough to spend a ton of money and work, to upgrade, not yet anyway, though eventually I probably would own the lowest cost (only about C$6,000) of a Mc amp that has a pair of blue VU meters, they do look better than the pair on my Marantz amp, though mine are bigger.

By the way, I recorded a few seconds (when it was quite loud) of the demo that shows while the amp is rated 350 W, the meter showed it never peak higher than 35 W, most of the time around the 0.35W, or lower mark.

In a way, I think it is better that I cannot hear the kind of what I expect to be very subtle differences, otherwise I would have to find time to do such audition, comparison listening all over the places in the GTA area and potentially spend quite a bit of my retirement money, and would still be left wondering if I needed to get another job to save up for the next upgrade. Think about it, if the AVM70 sounds better than the 60, and the 90 sounds much better than the 70, then in a few years, I would have to upgrade to the AVM100, then the 110, there is no end in chasing those anticipate/or just expected incrementally better "sound". So again, at this point, I would try to think in terms of ignorant is bliss......

 

[TheoN]

Thank you for this review. It is very detailed. I will admit, when I first started reading it, I thought it read a little like a marketing sheet. After reading through the coments, I have come to realize that Theo makes an interesting case for the sound quality differences he believes to have heard.

I do wonder though if he and the other listeners could repeated these results upon further analysis. However, it's clear much more work has gone into this review than most others you read on the internet. I would love to have the ability to listen to different products like this myself without having to buy them.

I do remain sceptical though. Just based on my own experience. I've bought several amps and dacs over the years that internet reviewers claimed to hear a difference with. When I first started doing that, I thought I could hear a difference too. But once that "shiny new toy" syndrome wore off, I could simply not convince myself that I could hear a difference.

Forgive me if this is a mistake, but didn't Theo also claim to hear a difference with those gaia isolation feet? Maybe I'm wrong, but that was a bit of a tough one to believe. And I'm not claiming he's lying. Maybe he truthfully thought there was a difference. I guess I'd really have to experience it for myself under proper listening comparison conditions to believe it.

Appreciate that. There are lots of folks who have done A/B or had the Anthem AVM 90 in their set up. Some hear a difference others don’t. I was able to perform a direct A/B with a switcher. The point with the AVM 90 as well is its measurements are exceptional. Measurements should be looked at as twiddling down who to date from a crowded field and listening for who you’ll marry.

In terms of the GAIA I use them on my Salon2 and won’t part with them. Re-read the review and you’ll note I am using them on a hardwood floor and there is a tactile difference with and without the GAIA with transference to the floor. Pay special attention to my aims and details and there are NRC laservibrometer measurements to backup the reduction in vibrations. Gene did a sampling with them too and heard a difference in completely different setup.

Purchasing decisions are always up to the consumer. Reviews should help someone narrow down the field.if someone is looking for reference 2-channel and home theater under $8k, the AVM 90 deserves serious consideration.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I love how everyone hollers about DBT’s, and “I’d only believe it when you say you did that”, that’s the only credible way. Then, when someone provides just exactly that. It turns into, well did you do this? Did you do that? Could you really tell a difference if you did that that other way?
I’m not only referring to this thread, but also many others I’ve seen in the past. Comical.

 

[Cos]

Appreciate that. There are lots of folks who have done A/B or had the Anthem AVM 90 in their set up. Some hear a difference others don’t. I was able to perform a direct A/B with a switcher. The point with the AVM 90 as well is its measurements are exceptional. Measurements should be looked at as twiddling down who to date from a crowded field and listening for who you’ll marry.

In terms of the GAIA I use them on my Salon2 and won’t part with them. Re-read the review and you’ll note I am using them on a hardwood floor and there is a tactile difference with and without the GAIA with transference to the floor. Pay special attention to my aims and details and there are NRC laservibrometer measurements to backup the reduction in vibrations. Gene did a sampling with them too and heard a difference in completely different setup.

Purchasing decisions are always up to the consumer. Reviews should help someone narrow down the field.if someone is looking for reference 2-channel and home theater under $8k, the AVM 90 deserves serious consideration.

I wish you would have tried that same comparison withe AVM70. Then again, maybe not lol. I actually couldn't justify the extra investment and I have zero issue with my unit.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I love how everyone hollers about DBT’s, and “I’d only believe it when you say you did that”, that’s the only credible way. Then, when someone provides just exactly that. It turns into, well did you do this? Did you do that? Could you really tell a difference if you did that that other way?
I’m not only referring to this thread, but also many others I’ve seen in the past. Comical.

The problem is that the DBT conditions are NOT EXACTLY met.

In this case, it was NOT even a DBT. It was a little single-blind test involving only 3 people, not Double-Blind-Test.

We don't expect audio studies to be the same quality/quantity as drug studies, but most published audio studies have at least 20 test subjects to be even considered "STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT" and are double-blind, not single-blind.

So this review wasn't a DBT. It was a simple audio test on just THREE people. We can all make what we will out of this, but it should be noted for what it was - a single-blind test on just THREE people where the test giver knew exactly which product was which, NOT a DBT.

And many of us have done the same with speakers. We would set up a switch box to compare speakers and invite a few people. Just a fun experiment. And if THREE people preferred the B&W 802D2 over the Salon2 in this little test, I would NOT claim that the 802D2 sounded better than the Salon2, or vice versa

Normally, I wouldn't say anything much, as @PENG noted. But this is for AUDIOHOLICS, which we all hold to much higher standards than everyone else.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do remain skeptical though. Just based on my own experience. I've bought several amps and dacs over the years that internet reviewers claimed to hear a difference with. When I first started doing that, I thought I could hear a difference too. But once that "shiny new toy" syndrome wore off, I could simply not convince myself that I could hear a difference.

Forgive me if this is a mistake, but didn't Theo also claim to hear a difference with those gaia isolation feet? Maybe I'm wrong, but that was a bit of a tough one to believe. And I'm not claiming he's lying. Maybe he truthfully thought there was a difference. I guess I'd really have to experience it for myself under proper listening comparison conditions to believe it.

At one point I owned 12 pairs of speakers (including Revel Salon2 and B&W 802D2) because people kept on telling me this speaker sounded better than that speaker.

 

[TLS Guy]

I know there is practically no chance of convincing ADTG and TLSG on this topic. At least ADTG, over the years seem to agree people might benefit from RC in the bass range, TLSG, no, try convincing him a lot of people will do well using AVRs vs AVP+amps, I wish you luck too if you try haha. Good thing this is just a hobby..lol...

The problem is that Audyssey room correction at least make my rig sound a lot worse. The sound stage completely collapses and it has a stridency that it does not have without it.

I realize my system may be a special case, as I voice my speakers for classical music of all types from orchestral, choral, instrumental and organs of all types.

I do have significant control over voicing of which my control over BSC is a big advantage over commercial designs.

The system is incredibly faithful to venues I know well. If I engage Audyssey there is a massive deterioration in SQ and sound stage.

Now it is true that my speakers are voiced to their space. In my youth I spent a good deal of time with organ builders who are experts in voicing. They know how to optimize their instruments and know what critical adjustments to make.

There certainly is a parallel to voicing speakers. But I am really skeptical that a cheap plastic microphone, placed at various locations around the room is going to do the job. For me it definitely does not.

 

[buckchester]

Yeah, I also wonder the same... On the other hand, it is so interesting that there are no (or rarely) arguments, or say, skepticism among popular audio forum goers about whether speakers, different recordings of the same song would sound different to most people. For amps, there are tons, never ending such debates, a little less for AVRs and AVPs those many would qualify their claims on things like a) "in pure direct mode", b) "with RC engaged, or not", c) "digital, or analog inputs" etc. It also seems to have much fewer believers in DAC chips making audible differences once you get pass the really cheap entry level DACS, except on forums such as ASR and some audiophile forums for headphone users (mostly).

I don't like to comment on b) and c) but on a) I would, and had, offer my own spin. One thing that I noticed has change over the years has been that when I auditioned amps without DSP used, in my earlier years I would be so impressed by the perceived sound quality in high end dealer demo rooms, listening to >$5K amps, and speakers >$10K, to the point I would be almost depressed to hear my own setups at home. That's when I was using satellite, bookshelf and even a couple good quality tower speakers. In more recent years, when I stepped in a little better gear such as Denon AVR-3805, 4308, AV7005, AV8801, AVR-X4400H, with and without external amps of >200 W/300W 8/4 ohms or more, and better speakers such as Focal 1028Be, KEFR900, while they still cost a fraction of those I demoed in dealers, I no longer found the difference in perceived sound quality is significant at all. I would say that I could hear better overall quality from say the Mc1.25kW monoblock driving the big original KEF Blade, but less than two weeks ago when I was listening to an $15,000 Mc integrated amp driving a pair of $20,000 (all approx list prices) Sonus Faber towers, I was not really more impressed than my low end Marantz vintage pair or my cheap Purifi amp driving my relatively cheap 1028 Be.

In fact the next day, when I thought memory was still fresh, I did some listening to my system using the same kind of music genres used in the Mc demo room, and indeed I was still very satisfied with my own, without any desire to go through the trouble of upgrading those beautiful Mc amps.

So, in my most recent subjective sound quality assessment, I couldn't say for sure if my own amps would sound different than those expensive McIntosh amps in my setup but I am quite confident that the difference would not wow me enough to spend a ton of money and work, to upgrade, not yet anyway, though eventually I probably would own the lowest cost (only about C$6,000) of a Mc amp that has a pair of blue VU meters, they do look better than the pair on my Marantz amp, though mine are bigger.

By the way, I recorded a few seconds (when it was quite loud) of the demo that shows while the amp is rated 350 W, the meter showed it never peak higher than 35 W, most of the time around the 0.35W, or lower mark.

In a way, I think it is better that I cannot hear the kind of what I expect to be very subtle differences, otherwise I would have to find time to do such audition, comparison listening all over the places in the GTA area and potentially spend quite a bit of my retirement money, and would still be left wondering if I needed to get another job to save up for the next upgrade. Think about it, if the AVM70 sounds better than the 60, and the 90 sounds much better than the 70, then in a few years, I would have to upgrade to the AVM100, then the 110, there is no end in chasing those anticipate/or just expected incrementally better "sound". So again, at this point, I would try to think in terms of ignorant is bliss......

View attachment 65992

Always appreciate your input, Peng. You are very objective.

 

[buckchester]

Appreciate that. There are lots of folks who have done A/B or had the Anthem AVM 90 in their set up. Some hear a difference others don’t. I was able to perform a direct A/B with a switcher. The point with the AVM 90 as well is its measurements are exceptional. Measurements should be looked at as twiddling down who to date from a crowded field and listening for who you’ll marry.

In terms of the GAIA I use them on my Salon2 and won’t part with them. Re-read the review and you’ll note I am using them on a hardwood floor and there is a tactile difference with and without the GAIA with transference to the floor. Pay special attention to my aims and details and there are NRC laservibrometer measurements to backup the reduction in vibrations. Gene did a sampling with them too and heard a difference in completely different setup.

Purchasing decisions are always up to the consumer. Reviews should help someone narrow down the field.if someone is looking for reference 2-channel and home theater under $8k, the AVM 90 deserves serious consideration.

Thank you for your reply, Theo. Very intriguing what you say. I have Revel f208s on lamanate flooring. I have two 15 inch subs flanking them
I do love their sound tremendoussly.

 

[TheoN]

Thank you for your reply, Theo. Very intriguing what you say. I have Revel f208s on lamanate flooring. I have two 15 inch subs flanking them
I do love their sound tremendoussly.

Revel brothers. Love it!

 

[TheoN]

Yes @PENG ‘s objectivity is fantastic. He’s always worth listening to and appreciate his approach.

On the broader topic of DACs I have reviewed numerous hi-res DAPs and likewise AVR and pre-pros. The DAC situation is very interesting. Generally speaking, the differences tend to be minor or inaudible however—and here’s the big however from my experience—if there’s a difference once you hone in on that difference you can hear it every time.

And let’s reiterate, and remember that it’s not just the DAC, but it’s the way that the DAC is implemented as part of the broader audio circuitry.

I’ll also note that having spoken with the very engineers who have designed some of the products that we love and respect, they will say that there is a sonic difference between DAC implementations. One of the most notable recent cases is the Denon X8500H and the X8500HA. With the former, Denon had the higher end AKM chip in the latter downgraded the chip due to the fire at the AKM factory. There is a difference between the two.