Anthem AVM 90 15.4CH Processor Review

[TheoN]

Ju

So how does that unit match levels? Or what was done particularly outside of it?

ps Let alone it being only compared to the other Anthem....

Volume control on each unit does the trick. Since they are pre-pros, fed to an XLR switcher, fed to the same amps and speakers you can do that pretty easily.

 

[lovinthehd]

Volume control on each unit does the trick. Since they are pre-pros, fed to an XLR switcher, fed to the same amps and speakers you can do that pretty easily.

So to what degree did you level match? Thanks for answering the questions, tho. Why is it important that it is better "sounding" than another Anthem unit? Does that indicate the previous Anthem unit was particularly good in the first place or just the opposite?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We did that. Did A/B Testing with the AVM 60 and AVM 90 level matched with a little bear XLR switcher. Detailed the process in the video review. Participants were not aware which was 60 or 90 and all preferred the 90 and described the differences in the same manner. So yes, measurable and audible.

1. Were both components set to Pure Direct mode?
2. How many participants were involved?
3. So the “tester” (you) knew exactly which one you were switching to, but the participants didn’t see which one you switched to?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I’m unclear by the inference you are making that we are paid by the manufacturers as that’s flat out false.

I did not mention one word about anyone getting paid.

If I had a friend who works at Anthem and he brought me the AVM90 and said, “Hey can you do me a favor and review this product for me?”, I might feel bias.

Now if you have absolutely no contact with anyone from Anthem, then that’s not the case.

If you just reviewed it because you happen to own it, then you might still be biased, especially when the measurements of both models are excellent and inaudible.

I think Gene would agree that a SINAD of 90dB+ is excellent and inaudible.

But it seems like you are telling everyone that the difference between SINAD of 90dB and 100dB is so significant and everyone can hear the difference.

 

[Golfx]

I did not mention one word about anyone getting paid.

If I had a friend who works at Anthem and he brought me the AVM90 and said, “Hey can you do me a favor and review this product for me?”, I might feel bias.

Now if you have absolutely no contact with anyone from Anthem, then that’s not the case.

If you just reviewed it because you happen to own it, then you might still be biased, especially when the measurements of both models are excellent and inaudible.

I think Gene would agree that a SINAD of 90dB+ is excellent and inaudible.

But it seems like you are telling everyone that the difference between SINAD of 90dB and 100dB is so significant and everyone can hear the difference.

Quit trying to pretend your words were innocent. And now you continue to be an irritant on this string.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Cynicism that his words are not genuine would presume he has an impure profit motive rather than making a living validly reviewing products with valid measurements. I find him agreeable, smart and knowledgeable. Audioholics has a reputation as serving as a valuable liaison between consumers and the industry. There is a balance to be mended. I believe Gene has done a good job with that balance.

Man, if Gene were to say, “Yes, I clearly heard the AVM90 (SINAD 101dB) sound much better than the AVM60 (SINAD 90dB), that’s a different story.

Another example. One of Gene’s contributing reviewers on YouTube said that the Marantz AV10 sounded “WARM” and not neutral in his review. Gene clearly stated that he’s not sure why they would say something like that because the AV10 sounds absolutely neutral.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Quit trying to pretend your words were innocent. And now you continue to be an irritant on this string.

Dude, YOU are the one making accusations and insults.

I have not accused anyone of anything. I am just having a debate. That’s what adults do when they disagree.

Adults don’t accuse or insult. They ask questions and try to find answers to their questions.

So far, I have not seen an answer to my question - why would an AVP with SINAD of 101dB (THD+N 0.00079%) sound better than an AVP with SINAD of 90dB (THD+N 0.0029%), which are both very excellent and inaudible?

 

[Nondemo01]

Dude, YOU are the one making accusations and insults.

I have not accused anyone of anything. I am just having a debate. That’s what adults do when they disagree.

Adults don’t accuse or insult. They ask questions and try to find answers to their questions.

So far, I have not seen an answer to my question - why would an AVP with SINAD of 101dB (THD+N 0.00079%) sound better than an AVP with SINAD of 90dB (THD+N 0.0029%), which are both very excellent and inaudible?

YOU: "Maybe Anthem and other companies he does reviews for expect him to write these things.

If I were Anthem, I would be pissed if I saw Theo writing, “Although the AVM 90 measures great, I doubt you will hear any improvement over the Denon X3800 AVR which has a THD+N of 0.001%. Also, the Denon X8500 actually has better measurements than the AVM 90 that costs a lot more”.

Maybe his hands are “tied” being a reviewer for these companies."

Pretty clear to me that you sound as if you are questioning Theo's motives and although not making a straight out accusation, imputation to be sure. How about be clear that you don't believe he "heard" a difference, don't like the use of the verbiage he used to describe the product, and move on? That is what adults do when they disagree and don't like something, they say so. You're attempting to discredit HIS RESULTS with your cherry-picked anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Evidence I don't believe, don't care for, and don't need. Adult enough for ya?

 

[gene]

I'm not liking the tone of this thread, especially from regular contributors here. It's a dangerous game when someone tries to define sound quality by a single metric like SINAD or SNR. There are a lot of variables that contribute to high fidelity and the AVM 90 has all the hallmarks of quality processing and componentry. Theo's love for the AVM 90 may in part be due to how well the latest version of Anthem ARC Genesis does for his system compared to what he had with the AVM 60. The AVM 90 also has numerous upgrades over the AVM 60 as he stated. That said, I doubt most people, including Theo and myself would be able to discern audible differences between two top teir processors like the Marantz AV 10 and Anthem AVM 90 if they are both set up similarly. This won't be possible once room correction is factored in, however. We will be doing a comparison of these 2 awesome products via a livestream very soon. It won't be a direct audio comparison but a feature set and use casis comparison of the products. I wish Theo lived closer so we could set up a proper controlled listening test between the 2 units but that's not happening in the immediate future. IN any event, I ask everyone to get along better here, drop any intentional or non-intentional accusations towards Theo and let's all enjoy the passion for the hobby we have in common. thanks.

 

[Chickenwing]

Is it worth waiting for Dirac Art on the AV10?

 

[PENG]

We did that. Did A/B Testing with the AVM 60 and AVM 90 level matched with a little bear XLR switcher. Detailed the process in the video review. Participants were not aware which was 60 or 90 and all preferred the 90 and described the differences in the same manner. So yes, measurable and audible.

Audible for movies, or even for music, using the ABX Little Bear switch? For music, did you guys also compared in direct mode with no dsp in used, just curious...

 

[gene]

Is it worth waiting for Dirac Art on the AV10?

It depends on how proficient you are at running Dirac and if you choose a speaker configuration that would compliment what ART does.

 

[Chickenwing]

It depends on how proficient you are at running Dirac and if you choose a speaker configuration that would compliment what ART does.

Is it anticipated to require full range speakers to work effectively? I have 70lcr accross the front, and 40b surrounds. I was curious whether full range rear surrounds would enhance the ART capabilities, or be a best practice.

Looking forward to future reviews of this technology by the awesome contributers at Audioholics! Each contributor has their own style, and they all compliment each other. Like a mixed pack of your favourite craft beer!

 

[PENG]

Since ASR was mentioned, and I know they did measure the AVM60, and also the AVM90. Their results on the AVM90, as expected, do line up well with those Theo posted.

As Theo mentioned, SINAD is just one metric, so I would like to focus on the following and see if we can find some plausible explanation of why differences were heard despite the AVM60's also quite low THD+N in the 1 kHz test.

Let's take a look:

Anthem AVM90 AV Processor Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Anthem AVM60 Review (AV Processor) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

I am not suggesting that everyone can hear the difference Theo can under the same conditions, but I think if we look beyond the single 1 kHz input test SINAD number, we probably shouldn't be surprised by those who could ID the two in an ABX.

 

[PENG]

I think Gene would agree that a SINAD of 90dB+ is excellent and inaudible.

But it seems like you are telling everyone that the difference between SINAD of 90dB and 100dB is so significant and everyone can hear the difference.

I don't think he did, as Theo himself quoted Gene right in the review:

As Gene DellaSala has noted on several occasions, SINAD is one of many measurement indicators and should not be used as the sole determination of a product's overall performance and sound.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm not liking the tone of this thread, especially from regular contributors here. It's a dangerous game when someone tries to define sound quality by a single metric like SINAD or SNR. There are a lot of variables that contribute to high fidelity and the AVM 90 has all the hallmarks of quality processing and componentry. Theo's love for the AVM 90 may in part be due to how well the latest version of Anthem ARC Genesis does for his system compared to what he had with the AVM 60. The AVM 90 also has numerous upgrades over the AVM 60 as he stated. That said, I doubt most people, including Theo and myself would be able to discern audible differences between two top teir processors like the Marantz AV 10 and Anthem AVM 90 if they are both set up similarly. This won't be possible once room correction is factored in, however. We will be doing a comparison of these 2 awesome products via a livestream very soon. It won't be a direct audio comparison but a feature set and use casis comparison of the products. I wish Theo lived closer so we could set up a proper controlled listening test between the 2 units but that's not happening in the immediate future. IN any event, I ask everyone to get along better here, drop any intentional or non-intentional accusations towards Theo and let's all enjoy the passion for the hobby we have in common. thanks.

I agree with what you are saying.

I don't know if these listening tests include these room correction protocols. I suspect that could be a huge variable. I am glad I don't have to use them. I only have experience of Audyssey and have a very low opinion of its so called "room correction". It other attributes such as distance and levelling seem accurate so it is useful for that.

I personally think room correction is likely a dead end. I am far convinced most rooms are inherently really bad. If there were, every time you had visitors over, or talked to your wife, that would sound weird and different in every room on the house and they don't. I have three systems and none have had their responses mucked about by Audyssey and they sound fine.

So as always the issue is speakers and how they interact with the room. But the real issue it that as far as possible they should be room neutral.

I think that AVPs which will be on more pro level systems, absolutely need to be rack mountable. Not being 19" rack compatible is a big turn off to me. That to me, puts them in the serious league. Not having that facility puts them in the amateur league at the starting gate.

 

[gene]

Is it anticipated to require full range speakers to work effectively? I have 70lcr accross the front, and 40b surrounds. I was curious whether full range rear surrounds would enhance the ART capabilities, or be a best practice.

Looking forward to future reviews of this technology by the awesome contributers at Audioholics! Each contributor has their own style, and they all compliment each other. Like a mixed pack of your favourite craft beer!

I've had a lot of difficulty getting ART properly set up in my theater room which utilizes true fullrange towers (4 x 12" subs per speaker) and 3 additional subs including a 21" infrasonic. Dirac wants me to re-run the calibration NOT using my surrounds as support but instead using all 5 of my subs for that purpose. I remain skeptically optimistic but so far my manual calibration is NOT rivaled by Dirac. If i were starting out fresh and building a Dirac ART based system, I'd probably nix the idea of fullrange towers and just stick with multi sub. I've never been able to successfully integrate fullrange towers and subs with any Dirac system. I have been successful with Audyssey PC but it took a lot of manipulation. Anthem ARC is a lot easier to use for the layman with much less to screw up if you just follow the initial set up, limit correction to 5kHz or less and adjust bass levels to taste.

 

[gene]

I agree with what you are saying.

I don't know if these listening tests include these room correction protocols. I suspect that could be a huge variable. I am glad I don't have to use them. I only have experience of Audyssey and have a very low opinion of its so called "room correction". It other attributes such as distance and levelling seem accurate so it is useful for that.

I personally think room correction is likely a dead end. I am far convinced most rooms are inherently really bad. If there were, every time you had visitors over, or talked to your wife, that would sound weird and different in every room on the house and they don't. I have three systems and none have had their responses mucked about by Audyssey and they sound fine.

So as always the issue is speakers and how they interact with the room. But the real issue it that as far as possible they should be room neutral.

I think that AVPs which will be on more pro level systems, absolutely need to be rack mountable. Not being 19" rack compatible is a big turn off to me. That to me, puts them in the serious league. Not having that facility puts them in the amateur league at the starting gate.

Regular Audyssey is a hot mess. PC Audyssey w separate mic calibration kit and proper usage of Biquad filters is the only way to go with that system. Also, the biggest mistake people often make is running all the way to 20kHz and trusting bass management settings. I stop Audyssey at about 5-8kHz and use manual shelving filters when needed. Agreed on rack mounting. All of my systems are racked.

 

[TheoN]

Gentlemen all the questions are answered in the video review, and perhaps if one hasn’t looked at that video review, there are conjectures happening. In summary:

1. Roon nucleus server was the source and streamed directly to an Oppo UDP 205 via Roon RAAT lossless protocol.
2. UDP-205 SPDIF coax was sent to the AVM 90 and HDMI sent to the AVM 60. Therefore any switching between the processors was instantaneous and no disparity within the source
3. Both AVM 90 and AVM 60 processors were connected to a Little Bear XLR switcher, which allows connecting both processors to a single set of amplifiers and speakers.
4. The switcher fed Benchmark AHB2 power amplifiers configured in bridged mono to Revel Ultima2 Salons. Respectively some of the best measuring power amps and reference full range speakers.
5. All listening test were conducted without room correction engaged to mitigate any superiority the AVM 90 ARC GENESIS may have and no subs were used.
   A separate virtual input was created as a pure pass-through of the digital signal.
6. Both processors outputs were SPL level matched with their volume control to such precision that listeners could not tell when the switch was happening.
7. Multiple listening contests were conducted. I had someone performing the switching with me at the main listening position and without disclosing, which was which.
8. I conducted listening tests to three individuals across a couch so that there was both MLP and off axis listeners. The age range of the other listeners ranged from 24 to 62 years old. Listening tasks were not conducted together with me and the other listeners in order to prevent any bias.
9. Sometimes users were prompted before a switch was made. Other times users were not told a switch was happening and were asked to determine when, and if they perceived a switch.
10. During those instances, the three individuals and I were able to discern and prefer the AVM 90 vs the 60. The listeners independently described the differences they heard in the same way.

In summary, if you believe that all processors and AVRs sound the same and there’s no difference in what you buy, then this is not the product for you.

If you are someone who values peak audio performance, appreciates well engineered products with upgraded audio circuitry, and values measurable benchmarks that are audible to a group of listeners, then I would strongly recommend you take the AVM 90 for a spin for yourself.

 

[lovinthehd]

Gentlemen all the questions are answered in the video review, and perhaps if one hasn’t looked at that video review, there are conjectures happening. In summary:

1. Roon nucleus server was the source and streamed directly to an Oppo UDP 205 via Roon RAAT lossless protocol.
2. UDP-205 SPDIF coax was sent to the AVM 90 and HDMI sent to the AVM 60. Therefore any switching between the processors was instantaneous and no disparity within the source
3. Both AVM 90 and AVM 60 processors were connected to a Little Bear XLR switcher, which allows connecting both processors to a single set of amplifiers and speakers.
4. The switcher fed Benchmark AHB2 power amplifiers configured in bridged mono to Revel Ultima2 Salons. Respectively some of the best measuring power amps and reference full range speakers.
5. All listening test were conducted without room correction engaged to mitigate any superiority the AVM 90 ARC GENESIS may have and no subs were used.
   A separate virtual input was created as a pure pass-through of the digital signal.
6. Both processors outputs were SPL level matched with their volume control to such precision that listeners could not tell when the switch was happening.
7. Multiple listening contests were conducted. I had someone performing the switching with with me at the main listening position and without disclosing, which was which
8. I conducted listening tests to three individuals across a couch so that there was both MLP and off axis listeners. The age range of the other listeners ranged from 24 to 62 years old
9. Sometimes users were prompted before a switch was made. Other times users were not told a switch was happening and were asked to determine when, and if they perceived a switch.
10. During those instances, the three individuals and I were able to discern and prefer the AVM 90 vs the 60. The listeners independently described the differences they heard in the same way.

In summary, if you believe that all processors and AVRs sound the same and there’s no difference in what you buy, then this is not the product for you.

If you are someone who values peak audio performance, appreciates well engineered products with upgraded audio circuitry, and values measurable benchmarks that are audible to a group of listeners, then I would strongly recommend you take the AVM 90 for a spin for yourself.

That's just 2ch, tho How does it do with its full capabilities?

Thanks for the extra details. Maybe I'll break down and watch the video to see just what these comments/preferences were particularly. I had just not expected a review to incorporate a listening comparison like this,