Amp for DynAudio Audience speakers

[SpunkyDDog]

Hey All,

So I've set aside a budget and a lot of time for my first surround sound setup. I set a goal to acquire the following speakers from DynAudio over the next several months and this is my wish list:

2x DynAudio Audience 122
1x DynAudio Audience 122c
2x DynAudio Audience 42/52 (not exactly sure yet, maybe price will aid in decision)
1x DynAudio Subwoofer SUB250

My room is about 14' x 23' x 9' with tv/couch facing the shorter length. The sound is exactly what I'm looking for and isn't too much speaker for my space, I believe. I currently have a Yamaha RX-V663 and I'm concerned that it might burn up at certain levels (?) which is why I'm asking for recommendations/suggestions for an amp that I could hook up to my pre-outs. I'm looking for something between $500 to $800 (if that's at all possible). Initially, I'll be getting the 122's and then the rest gradually. Someone's mentioned that Rotel is a good match for DynAudio's and another person's mentioned Sunfire.

I guess I need a multichannel Amp and I'm pretty clueless on how much power I want/need and what's out there that'll power a 5.1 channel system like this? It was mentioned that I should consider 100w/ch. Do I really need an Amp for this setup?

Help and Thanks!

P.S. - I'm kind of clueless about Impedance/Ohm's but I do understand that having a 4 Ohm system vs an 8 Ohm system could potentially kill some AV Receivers...

 

[CAVU]

I currently have a Yamaha RX-V663 and I'm concerned that it might burn up at certain levels

WHY!?!

It was mentioned that I should consider 100w/ch.

You already have ~100W/ch.

Do I really need an Amp for this setup?

No.

I'm kind of clueless about Impedance/Ohm's but I do understand that having a 4 Ohm system vs an 8 Ohm system could potentially kill some AV Receivers.

Yamaha (and others) feature a "load impedance" switch on their amplifiers with an 8-ohm and 4-ohm setting.

The 4-ohm setting does nothing more than limit the output power.

They do this to keep the heat buildup within the UL/CSA spec for the amplifer.

You amplifier is not going to "burn up" if you use 4-ohm speakers with the 8-ohm setting. It may get warmer than with an 8-ohm load and warmer than the "spec". But unless you are driving 4-ohm speakers to the wall, likely nothing else will happen. If you are really pushing the system, the amplifier's protection circuitry will kick in and shut the amp down.

The main speakers you refer to are 6-ohms and the surrounds are 4-ohm. But they are also all 86dB efficient.

This means that, to meet THX specified loudness in your room, they will be averaging ONE-WATT per channel.

I seriously doubt you will have any problems!!

You already own the Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. Get the speakers and try them. If your AVR continuously shuts down because you drive it too hard, then consider external power amps rated at 4-ohms. If your AVR does not shutdown, do nothing.

 

[Davemcc]

I think that you would benefit from an amp like the Emotiva XPA-5. While the 663 will make the Dynaudio work, there are other benefits to separate amplification that an entry level receiver just can't compare. Among these are large, stable power supplies, capacitance and heat sinks that allow headroom for transient spikes and stable, low distortion amplification into low impedence loads. I don't see that the 663 is rated into 6 or 4 ohms, so there is no telling what ability it has to deliver the current necessary to drive your Dynaudios to the volume levels you might prefer.

With an amp like the XPA-5 you can be assured that it can deliver the current required, with low distortion and tons of headroom at high volume for long periods of time without breaking a sweat, and for only $800 I don't think you can go wrong.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey All,

So I've set aside a budget and a lot of time for my first surround sound setup. I set a goal to acquire the following speakers from DynAudio over the next several months and this is my wish list:

2x DynAudio Audience 122
1x DynAudio Audience 122c
2x DynAudio Audience 42/52 (not exactly sure yet, maybe price will aid in decision)
1x DynAudio Subwoofer SUB250

My room is about 14' x 23' x 9' with tv/couch facing the shorter length. The sound is exactly what I'm looking for and isn't too much speaker for my space, I believe. I currently have a Yamaha RX-V663 and I'm concerned that it might burn up at certain levels (?) which is why I'm asking for recommendations/suggestions for an amp that I could hook up to my pre-outs. I'm looking for something between $500 to $800 (if that's at all possible). Initially, I'll be getting the 122's and then the rest gradually. Someone's mentioned that Rotel is a good match for DynAudio's and another person's mentioned Sunfire.

I guess I need a multichannel Amp and I'm pretty clueless on how much power I want/need and what's out there that'll power a 5.1 channel system like this? It was mentioned that I should consider 100w/ch. Do I really need an Amp for this setup?

Help and Thanks!

P.S. - I'm kind of clueless about Impedance/Ohm's but I do understand that having a 4 Ohm system vs an 8 Ohm system could potentially kill some AV Receivers...

You have made a good speaker choice. Dynaudio speakers sound excellent. They are however not all that sensitive, 86 db 2.83 volts at 1 meter.

Dynaudio being a highly honest and ethical company give not only the impedance variations, they also give the range of phase angles.

Now it is the minimum impedance that counts when deciding the suitability of amps. The speakers you have selected have a minimum impedance of 3.8 ohms. From the phase angles and impedance I have calculated that your Yamaha would have to provide 5.5 amps at 3.8 ohms to deliver its rated 95 watts into those speakers.

Yamaha not providing the kind of information provided by Dynaudio, do not state the current delivery of your receiver. Ask Yamaha for that information. My hunch is it will come up well short.

I'm very experienced with Dynaudio drivers and have used them for over 20 years. They do not acquit themselves well at all with current limited amplification. Dynaudio speakers require amplification commensurate with their price tag.

This has come up before with Dynaudio speakers, when members have noted marked improvement with proper amplification.

You were worried you might damage the output stages of your receiver with those speakers. Pending further information from Yamaha, I would say your concerns are valid.

 

[Davemcc]

This has come up before with Dynaudio speakers, when members have noted marked improvement with proper amplification.

I'll second that. I drive my Dynaudio Focus 140 with a Rotel amp and I would not consider driving them simply with my Denon receiver for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[satish536]

Those are really nice speakers, give them the power they deserve. I'm confident you would notice differences at medium to loud listening levels. The sound stage would open up, every instrument would become more distinct.

http://www.emotiva.com/xpa5.html
This should give you enough power.
Emo amps have a reputation to sound rather neutral and true to source.
In the future you might benefit with a dedicated pre-amp.

You could buy a Rotel or Sunfire but both are pricey for 200w per channel. For a fun project, try the emotiva(its cheap) and if you are not satisfied return it within the trial period.

 

[AVRat]

Welcome Spunky. Ditto TLS/Dave’s posts. I would like to also suggest that you consider other options regarding the sub. The Dyn sub will probably do well for music, but it doesn’t dig down low enough for the visceral impact that HT enthusiasts enjoy.

http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=178&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37&vmcchk=1&Itemid=37
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/KnightOverview.html

 

[cbraver]

Welcome Spunky. Ditto TLS/Dave’s posts. I would like to also suggest that you consider other options regarding the sub. The Dyn sub will probably do well for music, but it doesn’t dig down low enough for the visceral impact that HT enthusiasts enjoy.

http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=178&category_id=9&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37&vmcchk=1&Itemid=37
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3-mk3.html
http://www.svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb12nsd.cfm
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/KnightOverview.html

Those Dynaudio subs sound beautiful. I'd love to have one. They might not have the output of some of the brands you listed, but the sound quality and build quality of the 250, 300 and 500 are simply awesome. I would step up to the Sub 300, but the 250 is still an excellent subwoofer. If budget permits, the Sub 500 is probably one of my favorite subwoofers I have ever heard.

Otherwise, I'd look at Velodyne's Digital Drive subwoofers.

I'll second that. I drive my Dynaudio Focus 140 with a Rotel amp and I would not consider driving them simply with my Denon receiver for the reasons you mentioned.

Dave, were you originally powering them with the Denon? If so, what was the difference you noticed when you started powering them with the Rotel?

They are tough speakers to drive, but man, are they worth it.

 

[TLS Guy]

WHY!?!You already have ~100W/ch.

If that Yamaha receiver is typical of the usual genre of Far Eastern receivers, then with this impedance of his selected speakers and the phase angle he likely has around 40 watts per channel, not 100 watts. The manufacturers do everything they can to hide these details.

You just can't build a receiver with amps that will drive those speakers for the price of that unit.

 

[SpunkyDDog]

Wow, this is excellent feedback all; exactly what I'm looking for. I decided to get the RX-V663 because of it's features knowing it probably wouldn't make full use of the DynAudio potential. I ended up getting the Yammie at a really amazing deal which is why I'm looking for a separate amp. Of course, the yammie is still in the box if I decided completely against it.

I heard the speakers on a Rotel and they are amazing... but rotels are a little pricier for larger amps and multichannel. I'll do a little research for the Emotives you all suggested.

I thought the DynAudio Audience provided very reasonable base on the Rotel and the 250 seemed to sweetly add, subtly a little more in the store I auditioned in. I may consider the 300 or the others you all recommended.

I'll keep posting my thoughts and thanks as I continue my search with all that's going on. I think I'm venturing to the store tomorrow to get the 122 towers before the said price increase amongst the DynAudio line in May (so says the gentleman that helped me out).

 

[PENG]

According to http://www.dynaudiousa.com/products/audience/122/aud122spec.htm

"Recommended Amp. Power:
Small size rooms: >25 watts
Medium size rooms: >65 watts
Large size rooms: >125 watts"

Based on the above, plus the phase shift, impedance, and sensitivity issues cited by TLS, unless you consider your room small, you should get separate amplification and use it with the 663's preouts.

 

[SpunkyDDog]

"Recommended Amp. Power:
Small size rooms: >25 watts
Medium size rooms: >65 watts
Large size rooms: >125 watts"

You know, I always wondered what it meant by small, medium and large... Is there an estimate of what they consider small, medium and large? It just seems a little vague. When I'm a guy living in a condo of 1200 sq/ft, I'm wondering if my room of 14' x 23' x 9' is considered small/medium because relatively in this unit, it's the largest in the house...

 

[PENG]

You know, I always wondered what it meant by small, medium and large... Is there an estimate of what they consider small, medium and large? It just seems a little vague. When I'm a guy living in a condo of 1200 sq/ft, I'm wondering if my room of 14' x 23' x 9' is considered small/medium because relatively in this unit, it's the largest in the house...

To me 14X23X9 is a little larger than medium, but you should email them just to be sure.

 

[SpunkyDDog]

To me 14X23X9 is a little larger than medium, but you should email them just to be sure.

Good point. I never thought I could e-mail them. Usually I feel like the little guy when you're looking at big businesses/corp like DynAudio or any other manufacture and that they'd never both with you. I've had it happen in the past and I really never considered it because of this reason...

So this is the tiny graphic on the back of the Yamaha RX-V663:

It looks like only the Fronts can handle 4Ohm and all others can handle no less than 6Ohm... Am I reading this right? It seems kind of funny in my situation since the Audience 122 towers are 6Ohm nominal and the surrounds, Audience 42, are 4Ohm nominal.

After looking that the Emotive XPA-5 and then the LPA-1, I think I might go for the later simply because I'm a start up Audiophile and my budget is somewhat tight especially since I'll probably dump ~$1800 into the 122's tomorrow.

Is it possible to talk a dealer down in price? Is it usually successful? Is anyone aware of the price hike for DynAudio in May? Just curious if it's my local dealer's decision or if it's across the board...

On a separate but related note, my wife is supportive of this process which makes me wonder if she's an alien... And it's after the budget comes up of which grounds me in my understanding that she is not.

If people are interested where I ripped the photo from, I cropped it after downloading large marketing photos direct from Yamaha's site: http://www.yamaha.com/YECDealerMedia/AD_RX_recs.htm

 

[jliedeka]

You can always talk a dealer down on price. I recently haggled the price down on my receiver from 1839 to 1699. I'm not sure how good that was but it's 140 bucks in my pocket.

Jim

 

[cbraver]

Good point. I never thought I could e-mail them. Usually I feel like the little guy when you're looking at big businesses/corp like DynAudio or any other manufacture and that they'd never both with you. I've had it happen in the past and I really never considered it because of this reason...

So this is the tiny graphic on the back of the Yamaha RX-V663:

It looks like only the Fronts can handle 4Ohm and all others can handle no less than 6Ohm... Am I reading this right? It seems kind of funny in my situation since the Audience 122 towers are 6Ohm nominal and the surrounds, Audience 42, are 4Ohm nominal.

After looking that the Emotive XPA-5 and then the LPA-1, I think I might go for the later simply because I'm a start up Audiophile and my budget is somewhat tight especially since I'll probably dump ~$1800 into the 122's tomorrow.

Is it possible to talk a dealer down in price? Is it usually successful? Is anyone aware of the price hike for DynAudio in May? Just curious if it's my local dealer's decision or if it's across the board...

On a separate but related note, my wife is supportive of this process which makes me wonder if she's an alien... And it's after the budget comes up of which grounds me in my understanding that she is not.

If people are interested where I ripped the photo from, I cropped it after downloading large marketing photos direct from Yamaha's site: http://www.yamaha.com/YECDealerMedia/AD_RX_recs.htm

Yeah, you'll be able to talk them down. Don't pay what they originally ask for. Say that you're budget is getting a little tight and that these speakers are costing more than anticipated. After they come down on the price a little bit, say "your going to sleep on it" and be on your way out... they'll usually do one last little price drop to try and sell you that day (because, they know that people who leave the store end up not coming back once they come to their sense... the emotional part of the buy leaves them, wives crack down, they fill up their fuel tank, etc. ). I sometimes say "give me a call if your able to come down in the price for me" or something along that lines on my way out... 9/10 times they'll offer a lower price. Don't be like you are a wheeler and dealer... but like you want the speakers but its just too much money/don't want to spend that much. There is kind of an art to it, but it can be fun.

 

[Davemcc]

Dave, were you originally powering them with the Denon? If so, what was the difference you noticed when you started powering them with the Rotel?

I've never run the Dynaudio off the receiver, mostly because the Rotel was already in the system when the Dyne's showed up. I originally bought the Rotel to run my Era D5 because they are somewhat low sensitivity, 6 Ohm/min speakers and I felt the Denon was struggling with my "enthusiastic" volume preferences. I found the high end to be clearer and better defined at higher volumes with the amp on the Era. For me, the greatest benefit was the Era D5 center (4 Ohm/min) which really gained clarity across the range.

The Dynaudio Focus 140 are 4 Ohm/nom. I don't think I would trust the Denon 2307 to run them at the volume I've become accustomed to. In fact, I often wish I had got the Rotel 1095 instead of the 1075. Something in the back of my head tells me that I could still benefit from more power/headroom. I was trying to be responsible and get only as much amp as I thought I needed, but now I think the minimum 200 wpc guideline is a good rule to stick with.

 

[TLS Guy]

Good point. I never thought I could e-mail them. Usually I feel like the little guy when you're looking at big businesses/corp like DynAudio or any other manufacture and that they'd never both with you. I've had it happen in the past and I really never considered it because of this reason...

So this is the tiny graphic on the back of the Yamaha RX-V663:

It looks like only the Fronts can handle 4Ohm and all others can handle no less than 6Ohm... Am I reading this right? It seems kind of funny in my situation since the Audience 122 towers are 6Ohm nominal and the surrounds, Audience 42, are 4Ohm nominal.

After looking that the Emotive XPA-5 and then the LPA-1, I think I might go for the later simply because I'm a start up Audiophile and my budget is somewhat tight especially since I'll probably dump ~$1800 into the 122's tomorrow.

Is it possible to talk a dealer down in price? Is it usually successful? Is anyone aware of the price hike for DynAudio in May? Just curious if it's my local dealer's decision or if it's across the board...

On a separate but related note, my wife is supportive of this process which makes me wonder if she's an alien... And it's after the budget comes up of which grounds me in my understanding that she is not.

If people are interested where I ripped the photo from, I cropped it after downloading large marketing photos direct from Yamaha's site: http://www.yamaha.com/YECDealerMedia/AD_RX_recs.htm

Be careful about this nominal impedance spec. It is the MINIMAL impedance you need to be concerned about. That is what counts. The fronts have a minimum impedance of 3.8 ohms and the 42s 3.7 ohms. So all those speakers present effectively a four ohm load. However because of the phase angles the current demanded of the amp is actually greater than the ohms law calculation.

I did the calculation for your fronts, and calculated that for your fronts an amp needs to be able to deliver 5.5 amps into four ohms, to drive your speakers at 100 watts.

In your amp shopping that is what you need to know or be able to calculate.

 

[jcPanny]

Receiver power

I would try the Yamaha receiver powering your new speakers before you make any additional investments. If you have a small to medium sized room and listen at reasonable levels, then the receiver will probably have plenty of power.

If you decide to add an amp, then Emotiva is a good option. To save a few bucks, you could also get a pro-amp like the Behringer A500 (<$200) to drive the mains and let the receiver handle the ceter and surrounds.

 

[cbraver]

I've never run the Dynaudio off the receiver, mostly because the Rotel was already in the system when the Dyne's showed up. I originally bought the Rotel to run my Era D5 because they are somewhat low sensitivity, 6 Ohm/min speakers and I felt the Denon was struggling with my "enthusiastic" volume preferences. I found the high end to be clearer and better defined at higher volumes with the amp on the Era. For me, the greatest benefit was the Era D5 center (4 Ohm/min) which really gained clarity across the range.

The Dynaudio Focus 140 are 4 Ohm/nom. I don't think I would trust the Denon 2307 to run them at the volume I've become accustomed to. In fact, I often wish I had got the Rotel 1095 instead of the 1075. Something in the back of my head tells me that I could still benefit from more power/headroom. I was trying to be responsible and get only as much amp as I thought I needed, but now I think the minimum 200 wpc guideline is a good rule to stick with.

Nod. I remember our talk now when you first got the Focus's. I'd really be curious if you noticed a difference with the 1095. My bet is that you would. Come'on, you know you want it. Or maybe just try to get one to demo.