Amp for DynAudio Audience speakers

R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I would try the Yamaha receiver powering your new speakers before you make any additional investments. If you have a small to medium sized room and listen at reasonable levels, then the receiver will probably have plenty of power.

If you decide to add an amp, then Emotiva is a good option.
Second all of that.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I would try the Yamaha receiver powering your new speakers before you make any additional investments. If you have a small to medium sized room and listen at reasonable levels, then the receiver will probably have plenty of power.

If you decide to add an amp, then Emotiva is a good option. To save a few bucks, you could also get a pro-amp like the Behringer A500 (<$200) to drive the mains and let the receiver handle the ceter and surrounds.
I have to disagree again. With most speakers I would agree, however Dynaudio, drivers are significantly different. They have a motor system that is unusual, although copied by Morel and Jantzen. These drivers are small, yet they have have voice coils 2.5 inches in diameter. This makes for a heavy voice coil. The reason the dust cap is so large is because it goes over the voice coil like any other speaker. This also contributes to the speaker being 3db to 4db less sensitive than most other drivers, and a lot less sensitive than some others. So right off the bat you need twice the amp power than for other speakers. To add to that, the relationship of phase and voltage of these drivers makes much higher current demands on the amp than you might appreciate.

So why bother with these drivers? And they are among my favorites.

Well they have an excellent frequency response and off axis response. You can design a crossover first order low pass and usually second order high pass that has a really smooth response in the crossover region, with minimal phase and time delay issues. This produces an wonderfully smooth open sound.

These small drivers have an excellent bass response.

The over sized voice coils result in a robust reliable speaker with minimal thermal compression issues.

I have designed and built the following speakers with these drivers.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2465549_x3u39#129315000_LjFX5

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2465549_x3u39#129314808_iV8xY

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2465549_x3u39#129312026_7G6qa

The first speakers were built for monitoring of location live recordings, done mainly for public radio outside concert broadcasts. They are now my surrounds powered by Quad 405 II

The second speakers also built for monitoring of live recordings. These are now in our town home in Grand Forks.

The third used the mid range Dynaudio M75, still with 2.5 inch voice coil for midrange biamped at 180 Hz to the KEF B 139s. These are now re aligned and my rear surrounds, and the surrounds for Multichannel SACD. Currently they are powered by two Quad 405 IIs

Here are my powering experiences.

When I built the top set I restored a tube Dynaco, 20 Watts per channel. They barely drove them above background levels. The Quad 405 II amps 100 watts per channel drove them pretty well, but you could still clip on the fortissimos without them being excessively loud. That is what they were powered by in the space in the photograph. To really make them open up and perform required the Quad 909 250 watts per channel. Both the 405 II and 909 have excellent current reserve.

While using them for monitoring, I had a chance to record a number of famous musicians giving concerts at the Chester Fritz auditorium. The musicians were highly complimentary of those speakers.


The second speakers are now driven by a couple of Quad 303 amps, 45 watts per channel. One of the 303s just drivers the isobarik coupled cavity bass system in those speakers. Now I use the 303s on purpose to limit the power and avoid getting carried away and generating complaints from the neighbors. In other words these speakers clip out the quad 303 fairly easily. Now I suspect those 303s will provide very similar powering to Yamaha receiver.

The top end of the third speakers were powered by Quad 405 II and later after its availability the 909. The 405 II always marginally underpowered them, even with the crossover at 180 Hz.

I really like Dynaudio speakers. They are one of the few speakers I recommend. However I have to recommend that a purchaser adequately power them.

If you have ever seen Dynaudios demonstrated at shows, they always have over sized amps and the above is the reason.

I seriously doubt the OPs Yamaha receiver will give him what he paid for from his Dynaudio speakers. However if he can get out of Yamaha how much current the amps on that receiver can dump into a four ohm load we can be more specific. To get 100 watts peak they need to provide 5.5 amps into a four ohm load to be equivalent to the quad 405 II, and as I said even that is marginal with those drivers, so more would be better.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Good point. I never thought I could e-mail them. Usually I feel like the little guy when you're looking at big businesses/corp like DynAudio or any other manufacture and that they'd never both with you. I've had it happen in the past and I really never considered it because of this reason... :eek:
In the past every time I email Polk Audio or B&W (comparable to DynAudio I assume), they email back quickly. I have never bought anything from B&W (yet) but they answered my questions just the same.

As others suggested, you could try without an amp first, but I bet you will end up getting an amp eventually if not right away. For DynAudio, it is worth it. You did the right thing by spend money on getting nice speakers and then consider inexpensive amps that will do a fine job.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Nod. I remember our talk now when you first got the Focus's. I'd really be curious if you noticed a difference with the 1095. My bet is that you would. Come'on, you know you want it. ;) Or maybe just try to get one to demo.
All bets are off when it comes to HT upgrades since I ordered a new Corvette. But I'm sure that I would like a new amp anyway.
 
SpunkyDDog

SpunkyDDog

Enthusiast
So, as I mentioned the other day, I went out to my local dealer today to audition the DynAudio speakers (Audience 122) with the intention of finally buying them. Unfortunately, they did not have the 122's in stock or on the floor. So, instead, I asked to demo the Audience 72's again (this is my third visit to the store auditioning) on a Rotel Amp (his high end choice at the store) just to make ABSOLUTELY sure I was going to be happy with the sound I might have eventually. I listened to lesser/similar priced 'digms and B&W and then back again. I also asked if he could demo on a Yamaha Amp, of which he did. Though it wasn't a multi-channel receiver, like mine, it was a stereo Amp priced around $300. I forgot to ask which model and the ohm deal, but I'm assuming that it's probably lesser or the same quality components, especially for the price. I checked with my wife who agreed it was the sound we both liked.

I then mentioned my budget was tight (true) and that I couldn't afford the 72's at retail price ($1900). I was interested in the 122's because of the price though still high at retail ($1800). After a second, he asked if I liked the cherry look and I said either red-looking-wood was what we'd like. And surprisingly, out of nowhere, he said, "how about the demos for $1600." :eek: Wow... :eek: I never anticipated nor expected that I'd get the 72's, especially at that price! I shot a gaze at my wife (the CFO), who looked just as surprised, and swung back at the guy without batting an eye, stuttering, "Sure!"

Long story short (I know I just rambled a bit), I have two beautiful DynAudio Audience 72's in Rosewood sitting in boxes on my kitchen floor ready for me to pull them out. It's funny, they were originally the set of speakers I wanted, but I was worried of the price and the ability to drive them. But now, even though they were the demos, I'm enthusiastic about this buy. Even more so after talking with this community! The store was getting ready for the Excite series (new, like, this week), so they probably wanted to sell their demo units anyway, which I'm obviously OK with! Better yet, the store will also honor the warranty on the speakers too! :D

The downside... I won't be able to hook them up tonight or this weekend since I have to wait until the carpeting company comes by to replace our carpet in our entire house, hopefully no later than Monday. :(

So, what I might do is pull them out, hook up the yammie and see how they perform (if at all) with just the Playstation 3 or a CD, briefly. I am very intrigued if they will truly perform at the level I expect them to on the Yamaha (obviously less than the Rotel Amp). I'll also read the manual thoroughly and find the specs that might only be published in the purchased equipment manual provided with the unit. After that, I'll look to see if the calculations that TLS Guy demo'ed (along with others) to see how the Yamaha stands up in the literature. Regardless, when my budget money gets renewed during my summer teaching job, I'll probably buy the Emotive amp ya'll recommended and then add a center channel with the money left over.

I guess this just upgraded my system a bit and I think I'm pretty damn lucky and happy that this happened. I CANNOT WAIT to watch the Matrix and listen to its sound track on this new system. I already have a line-up of different speakers systems in the house to compare what I've been missing all my life. ;)

More to come... :D

Related to why the carpet is an issue (another long/story short): my wife and I bought a new condo 1 1/2 years ago and within the period of owning it, the carpet shed like leaves in the fall. I went through 8 vacuum bags in about the first 9 months, which is friggin' crazy. We put in a claim and sure enough, the company declared our carpet faulty (kind of weird since I'd never think carpet would be bad, especially when this is supposed to be a good grade carpet). They'll replace it under warrenty, but this means I essentially have to repack and break down all the improvements I made that hang lower than a certain high above the floor... like the bookshelves I built in and my home office desk... grrrr! :mad:
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
Congratulations on a nice upgrade. Just be aware that the 72's are a 4 Ohm speaker vs. the 122's that are a 6 Ohm speaker. You have just made the load on your receiver just a little bit more challenging. I would say that you should definitely get the amp sooner rather than later. Ask the CFO for an advance against your future upgrade budget. Barring that, pay very close attention to the speakers if you decide to turn up the volume. Any hint of harshness or distress, turn it down immediately. Also, monitor the temp of the receiver and if it gets too hot, turn it down. These speakers may want to draw more current at higher volumes than your receiver is designed to supply.
 
SpunkyDDog

SpunkyDDog

Enthusiast
Thanks for the advice. I knew as soon as I said, "Sure!" I almost instantly kicked myself because I knew by upgrading that it was going to make my needs for an Amp more immediate than before. I want to test the system before the weekend, so I'll definitly take people's considerations for using the yammie in mind.

Maybe I can sell my kidney; you only need one, right? My wife might suggest it... ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for the advice. I knew as soon as I said, "Sure!" I almost instantly kicked myself because I knew by upgrading that it was going to make my needs for an Amp more immediate than before. I want to test the system before the weekend, so I'll definitly take people's considerations for using the yammie in mind.

Maybe I can sell my kidney; you only need one, right? My wife might suggest it... ;)
You have. The minimum impedance of those speakers is 3.1 Ohms! To drive the speakers at 100 watts the map needs a current delivery of 6 amps. For 250 watts 9.5 amps. The Emotiva should drive them fine.

I would only drive them with your receiver at a very low level, or you may be looking for a receiver or have a repair bill.

When you get the right amp, I bet you will really love those speakers. With the right amp you will have no worries. Don't worry about the speaker warranty, You will be deaf well before you fry those huge voice coils.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
I fried a Pioneer Elite (6-ohm stable) with Dynaudio 70s, and learned this the hard way when I didn't know better. That Yahama probably won't handle the Dyn 72s for very long (and even the 122s is questionable). They require a sizable amplifier, and they also don't come alive until they do. With big iron behind them, you're room will sound like a concert hall with the 72s. The IEC of 72s is 210-watts. I power my Dynaudio 70s with 450-watts per channel, and they love it. I wouldn't recommend going with less than 200-watts.

Here are some conclusions made by Audioholics about the Rotel 1095 amplifier, along with some nicely worded notes about when it makes sense to step up to seperates:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/rotel-rmb-1095/rmb-1095-setup-listening-tests-conclusion

Congradulations on your purchase! You're going to really enjoy those speakers! I'll be out of town for a while, but I'll look out for your listening responses after you get it all setup. Please report back!!!!
 
C

cfrizz

Senior Audioholic
Congrats! You really lucked out!!!

If my mains ever give out, my next purchase will probably be Dynaudio's Focus 220's. Fortunately, I already have the proper amplification in place when I get them!:D

I can't wait to read your impressions of them as well.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for the advice. I knew as soon as I said, "Sure!" I almost instantly kicked myself because I knew by upgrading that it was going to make my needs for an Amp more immediate than before. I want to test the system before the weekend, so I'll definitly take people's considerations for using the yammie in mind.

Maybe I can sell my kidney; you only need one, right? My wife might suggest it... ;)
It seems that so far you managed to out maneuver your 'CFO'. She now has no choice but to let you get an amp. Let us know how that little Yamaha delivers but try keeping the SPL below 80 dB at all times from your listening position.
 
SpunkyDDog

SpunkyDDog

Enthusiast
It seems that so far you managed to out maneuver your 'CFO'. She now has no choice but to let you get an amp. Let us know how that little Yamaha delivers but try keeping the SPL below 80 dB at all times from your listening position.
Well, I can say that there's progress. I'll be having a meeting with her this weekend to talk about the financial situation and if I can take out an advance for the amp from a particular paycheck I'll be getting this summer. Things look promising, but as she doesn't have much knowledge about electronics, I'm sure she's going to freak out :eek: over a $500 - $800 amp (without shipping). :rolleyes::D

I'm definitely eyeing the Emotiva Amps, but what I don't understand in the article of the Rotel 1095 that cbraver posted (http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/rotel-rmb-1095/rmb-1095-setup-listening-tests-conclusion) why would Clint DeBoer say the following:

As ever, I strove to provide a real world experience, so I compared its sound to a $1000 receiver - a likely upgrade waiting to happen.
Does he mean that it's comparable to a $1000 receiver? I guess why I'm confused is because it almost makes it sound like the Rotel is $1000 or less expensive purchase/a better purchase for the money? Not quite sure, but I know that street price is not $1000, if anything, I've seen it for about $2000, I believe.

But, then again, I'm still most likely going to get an Emotiva, whether it be the $500 125w x 7 channels or $800 200w x 5 channels. The $500 is a very, very tempting price, especially because of my budget. But I can see where the headroom in the latter might be feasible, but I don't know if it's necessary since I probably won't be listening to speakers at ear-bleeding levels. I'm kind of past that point and look for quality than quantity... :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, I can say that there's progress. I'll be having a meeting with her this weekend to talk about the financial situation and if I can take out an advance for the amp from a particular paycheck I'll be getting this summer. Things look promising, but as she doesn't have much knowledge about electronics, I'm sure she's going to freak out :eek: over a $500 - $800 amp (without shipping). :rolleyes::D

I'm definitely eyeing the Emotiva Amps, but what I don't understand in the article of the Rotel 1095 that cbraver posted (http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/rotel-rmb-1095/rmb-1095-setup-listening-tests-conclusion) why would Clint DeBoer say the following:



Does he mean that it's comparable to a $1000 receiver? I guess why I'm confused is because it almost makes it sound like the Rotel is $1000 or less expensive purchase/a better purchase for the money? Not quite sure, but I know that street price is not $1000, if anything, I've seen it for about $2000, I believe.

But, then again, I'm still most likely going to get an Emotiva, whether it be the $500 125w x 7 channels or $800 200w x 5 channels. The $500 is a very, very tempting price, especially because of my budget. But I can see where the headroom in the latter might be feasible, but I don't know if it's necessary since I probably won't be listening to speakers at ear-bleeding levels. I'm kind of past that point and look for quality than quantity... :)
I think you will be fine with the Emotiva LPA-1 That has a current capability of 7.5 amps into fours ohms. It is unlikely you will drive all channels to the max, but if you did the max current available is only 4.8 amps. Remember power increases in proportion to the square of the current.

Now you get what you pay for! The MPS-2 can provide a whacking great 14.1 amps! Also this amp is stable to 2 ohms, i.e. won't blow up. Now the LP-1 is only stable to four ohms, and the minimum impedance of your speakers is 3.1 ohms. My hunch is that you are going to be fine, but you might want to check with Emotiva to be certain that it will be stable. As stated by another respondent, Dynaudio speakers can be amp cookers if you push them. However you state you are going to be sensible. Funnily enough classical music takes more peak power. Pop and rock have much less dynamic range, so the average power is usually greater, but the peak power in a big classical work is much greater, but the average power much less.

In any event, ALL solid state devices have a time/temperature longevity curve in their spec sheets. If you drive your amps pedal to the metal, you can expect repair bills sooner rather than later. And of course the more expensive amp is going to be running much lower down the time/temperature curve, so longer life is to be expected.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
So how does this compare to Harman Kardon flagship receiver that is capable of 65 Amperes Current or the Denon PMA2000IVR which is capable of 120 Amperes Current?

http://usa.denon.com/pma2000_productsheet.pdf

Are these totally different things?:confused:
I don't know were you went hunting for those specks. But no amp except a welding amp will deliver 120 amps to a load, not an audio one. However if you add the total draw of the larger Emotiva amp, all channels driven you have a total current output of 99 amps. I calculated the max current available from one output stage. The calculation is the square root of the division of the max power the amp will deliver into the lowest resistance the amp will drive, divided by that resistance.

So the MP-2 delivers 400 watts into two ohms. So divide 400 watts by 2 Ohms and you get 200. The square root of 200 is 14.142 amps. That is the maximal current draw from any individual output stage of that amp. It's that simple. I hope you are no longer confused. And by the way amps are specked driving a power resistor. Because of the fact that when driving a speaker current is out of phase with voltage to varying degrees, you can not work it back to predict that that current will provide the calculated power to the speaker. If fact it will be somewhat less depending on the phase angle between current and voltage at the measured frequency.

Probably should not have added the last bit as you will be confused again. However Dynaudio publish phase angles at frequency ranges along with the impedance ranges, so you can calculate the worst case scenario. Few manufacturers do that, and they should. That would help people chose the appropriate power without shooting in the dark. The receiver manufacturers also tend to provide minimal unhelpful information. Hurts sales I suppose!

It took me a while to see where you got that 120 amps from. Buried in the text it states that the power supply can deliver a Peak current of 120 amps to the output devices. Now the peak current does not mean much, but if the amp was being driven form a sine wave, the the RMS (steady state current) available from the power supply would be 87.6 amps. That is what matters.

Again you have been drawn in by the advertising department doing the "glossies". How much power is available to the devices would have to be worked back form the the voltage the amp could deliver to a given load. That would be an estimate at best, as the voltage delivered to the speakers will be somewhat less than the the output device rail voltage. They don't state the rail voltage at which that current spec is given. Then you could work out the power consumed by the output devices and see how much heat is generated and how much goes to the speakers and get a percentage efficiency. Unless you are really curious about that, I have better things to do.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...a Peak current of 120 amps to the output devices. Now the peak current does not mean much, but if the amp was being driven form a sine wave, the the RMS (steady state current) available from the power supply would be 87.6 amps...They don't state the rail voltage at which that current spec is given. Then you could work out the power consumed by the output devices and see how much heat is generated and how much goes to the speakers and get a percentage efficiency. Unless you are really curious about that, I have better things to do...
Hmmm. That's okay, TLS. That's going way over my head.:D

Okay, The Audio Critic measured this on the PMA2000:

Dynamic Power Output:
139 watts (33.3 V) into 8 ohms
230 watts (30.3 V) into 4 ohms
334 watts (25.8 V) into 2 ohms
399 watts (20.0 V) into 1 ohm
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Hmmm. That's okay, TLS. That's going way over my head.:D

Okay, The Audio Critic measured this on the PMA2000:

Dynamic Power Output:
139 watts (33.3 V) into 8 ohms
230 watts (30.3 V) into 4 ohms
334 watts (25.8 V) into 2 ohms
399 watts (20.0 V) into 1 ohm
So that amp has a large current reserve. It can deliver 20 amps if pushed. This is always a good thing in an amp, because of the phase angles between voltage and current in speakers, instantaneous currents are frequently much higher than you think. So the more current reserve the better. The problem is, it is pricey. But you can see how people so often short change themselves with that "bargain amp."

By the way, you remember our discussion about speaker protection? If that amp had output device failure without protection, it would push over 80 amps DC through the woofer voice coils instantly! A welder!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So that amp has a large current reserve. It can deliver 20 amps if pushed. This is always a good thing in an amp, because of the phase angles between voltage and current in speakers, instantaneous currents are frequently much higher than you think. So the more current reserve the better. The problem is, it is pricey. But you can see how people so often short change themselves with that "bargain amp."

By the way, you remember our discussion about speaker protection? If that amp had output device failure without protection, it would push over 80 amps DC through the woofer voice coils instantly! A welder!
Thanks, TLS Guy.

Now I'll have nightmares on that.

Thanks a lot!

Note to self: SELL the PMA2000s if Denon ever goes out of Business (like Acurus).:D:D
 

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