Active vs Passive Speakers. Budget ~10k

[TLS Guy]

To get back on topic. The auto entertainment industry has got itself geared to active design. It had the capital to do this. In addition to vastly improved quality, there were gains in space, weight and power savings.

The home industry has had none of these incentives. In fact in general speaker manufacturers are not electronic s manufacturers and vice versa.

However the gains would be enormous by going the same route as car.

Just take the midrange driver. As I have maintained there is a dearth of good ones. The midrange needs to be wide bandwidth small and light and highly sensitive and efficient and it could be. Now efficient sensitive drivers are highly advantageous. This is because you want high power in small voice coil. This requires low power to avoid VC burn out and thermal compression. Now a woofer can not be that sensitive, unless you want to load it with a huge horn. There is an inverse relationship between low frequency extension and sensitivity.

So currently the option is to use lots of drivers to solve the problem. This creates a host of other problems.

A high sensitivity midrange and tweeter does you no good in a passive design, as you end up getting thermal compression in the L-pad resistors, waste power and generate a lot of heat.

However in an active design there is not a downside, all gain from this approach. If there were more active designs there would be very different midrange drivers and HF units.

Each could have an amp designed for the specific bandwidth. A tweeter could have an almost perfect response for the bandwidth and the midrange. Most current midranges are really adapted bass mids, and far from ideal.

In addition the crossovers could tailor then hand off perfectly, and much better Eq a driver. At the same time phase and time relationships could be aligned perfectly. If the home market were lucrative enough this would happen in a heart beat.

The technology is advanced enough that all it requires is application.

If active became the rule and at the same time taking full advantage of what digital design has to offer, people would never listen to speakers with passive crossovers again.

 

[djreef]

Honestly, with more computer based desk-top media setups (both pro and consumer based) increasing in popularity, I wouldn't be surprised to see some heavy hitters jumping into the active speaker market either through development or acquisition (much in the way Focal, and Dynaudio have). It seems that energy would flow in this direction sooner than later given the convenience this product niche would provide to a growing demographic.

DJ

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm certain that in the car environment the lack of passive crossovers, plays a crucial part in making this system excellent.

No, I think it's just because the speakers are good. Pioneer, like Harman International (Mark Levinson, JBL, Infinity), makes good accurate speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If active became the rule and at the same time taking full advantage of what digital design has to offer, people would never listen to speakers with passive crossovers again.

I wholeheartedly believe in active woofers/bass because ~ 90% of all the power requirement is in the bass. In addition, it is extremely useful, practical, and functional to have active gain control for the bass. Thus, I would never buy towers with passive bass/woofers. I would only buy towers with active bass. Otherwise, I might as well buy BOOKSHELF speakers and separate dual subwoofers.

But the treble and midrange do not require as much power, probably only 10% of the total power requirement. In addition, you probably don't want to be messing around with the gain level of the midrange and treble. Thus, I see no point of having active treble and midrange.

My Linkwitz Orion is 100% active. It is considered by some critics to be among the best sounding speakers in the world. Yet, I unequivocally prefer my RBH towers (passive treble, passive midrange, active bass) over the Orion.

The FACT is, if having active treble and midrange absolutely makes the speakers sound better, then EVERY single high-end company who caters to hardcore audiophiles around the world would make all their high-end speakers with active treble and midrange.

Hardcore high-end audiophiles are not limited in resources or in their abilities to operate active speakers. Hardcore high-end companies are not limited in their abilities to produce and distribute to hardcore high-end audiophiles.

The FACT is that speakers with active midrange and treble don't sound any better at all than great speakers with passive midrange and treble.

 

[TLS Guy]

No, I think it's just because the speakers are good. Pioneer, like Harman International (Mark Levinson, JBL, Infinity), makes good accurate speakers.

I just guarantee you, that my car system would not be possible without active crossovers.

The fact is that the market has not heard what would be truly achievable with modern design techniques.

You do not understand the resources required. Custom chip sets would need to be designed to take full advantage of what is feasible. So the well healed would not be able to afford it, without large production runs. A pair of speakers built that way would be several million a pair. If you order a chip set, the set up runs over 1 million and then you have R & D design and electromagnetic modeling of the chip set. The a minimum run of a million. So you need some sharing across a range with flexible BIOS in the set.

With the resources of a well healed manufacturer you could design an absolute killer midrange. You have not taken on board, that going this route would allow drivers to be developed for this concept that would be useless in a passive speaker. We have not scratched the surface of the possible yet.

Siegfried Linkwitz is a brilliant engineer, however the speakers were limited by the fact that the speakers used open backed moving coil drivers. That is handicapping you at the starting gate. Only Linkwitz could have made them as good as they are.

With resources and development along the lines I have suggested, the speaker could be improved immensely, of that I'm certain.

Whether you like it or not, passive crossover can not perfectly phase and time align. For that matter nor can current active ones, but they could. That is important, but previous and current technology has provided only partial solutions, with a lot of downsides and limited listening windows. At the moment we have only attained a little of the benefits of ditching passive crossovers. That is not to say there are not already benefits. I would not have been able to get what I get out of my system with passive crossovers alone, not by a long shot. That exceptional impulse response is in great part achieved by the design and use of active crossovers in critical places.

I think if it were not for the great recession, we would be a long way along this road by now.

There is no speaker in existence along the lines I have suggested, but there will be.

 

[pachieh]

I've never understood the advice to use spade connectors. They very often fall off the speaker binding posts because speaker vibrations loosen the threads. If you're unlucky it can cause an amp-killing short. I've known at least one person who used a wrench to tighten the nut on the binding post so his massive "audiophile grade" spades wouldn't fall off again. He succeeded in breaking off the brass binding post. Avoid that trouble by avoiding spades.

Not true. This does not happen often. Spades are safe, tighten properly and check every so often. Tightening with a wrench is not advised and is unnecessary.

I hate banana plugs. Their springiness wears off over time and they can lose full contact with a terminal. To each their own, everyone had a personal preference for connectors.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Irvrobinson]

Not true. This does not happen often. Spades are safe, tighten properly and check every so often. Tightening with a wrench is not advised and is unnecessary.

I hate banana plugs. Their springiness wears off over time and they can lose full contact with a terminal. To each their own, everyone had a personal preference for connectors.

I agree with your comments about spades. I like bananas too, at least the locking kind, but I'm using spades now on my primary system with speakers nearly flat to 20Hz and the spades remain tight and safe. I'd rather have spades than bare wire any day.

 

[JohnL]

With a 10K budget you are better off going with passives.

I say this as an owner of ATC active floorstanders.

IMHO a well designed, truly active, speaker is in an entirely different league from the equivalent passive design.

It's just that your 10K budget is not high enough to acquire them

Regarding ATC for example......Their REALLY good stuff starts around 15-20K unless you go used.

FWIW the RRP of my ATC's was 34K....ridiculously expensive(but STILL somehow worth it)

Thankfully I was lucky enough to score them USED off Ebay for just 5K.

Good Luck with whichever path you take.


Cheers

 

[Swerd]

Not true. This does not happen often. Spades are safe, tighten properly and check every so often. Tightening with a wrench is not advised and is unnecessary.

I hate banana plugs. Their springiness wears off over time and they can lose full contact with a terminal. To each their own, everyone had a personal preference for connectors.

Obviously, people have had different experiences with spades and plugs. I gave one example of a spade connector's failure that led to catastrophic consequences, and I made it clear that it was a single example. I made no broad generalizations. Different dimensions and characteristics of spades and banana plugs, as well as different dimensions of speaker binding posts may very well have something to do with that.

Your last sentence indicates you do understand the wide variations in experience different people have had. Rather than make broad conclusions from limited personal experience, it would help if you showed what type of banana plugs you used in the past that led to your disappointment.

I have had similar bad experience with banana plugs that have springs like these:

But banana plugs with these springs have worked well for me:

 

[witchdoctor]

If active speakers weren't better why is nearly every recording you listen to (movies and music) mixed with them? Audiophiles enjoy matching amps/speakers/cables to have enough flexibility to end up with a sound that matches their personal taste.
With active speakers you are buying a "system" not a speaker and all parts of that system (amps/drivers/cabinet) have been matched by the engineer. How many amps and speaker cables would Joe audiophile have to test before he could determine the amps/speaker cables that match his passive speakers best?
However the tinkering with minutiae is what makes this an interesting addiction for a lot of people.
Plus when you add in the money you save on speaker cables there is no way the money spent on an active speaker can buy the equivalent quality when you divide that budget between passive speakers, amp needed to drive them, and speaker cables to connect the amp.

 

[rojo]

WTF is that bullshit? Active speakers do have some benefits, but those aren't them. You're implying that timbre comes from amp and cable choice, when the biggest contributors are drivers matched to a proper enclosure and a well-designed crossover network. Are you one of those fools who spends a fortune on designer cables, or has an alkaline battery taped to them to encourage the flow of electrons?

Sent from my LG-VS980 using Forum Fiend v1.3.1.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

All they are doing with powered speaker is placing a cheaper class-D plate amp inside the cabinet.

In terms of efficiency, "synergy", "timbre matching" or whatever, it is utterly no different than using an OUTBOARD active crossover and OUTBOARD amplifier.

However, the OUTBOARD components you CHOOSE may be a lot better in quality depending on what you get.

The outboard amps from ATI, Lexicon, Theta, Mark Levinson, Krell, Bryston, Parasound, Anthem, Classe, McIntosh, Sunfire, Adcom, etc. are unequivocally at least as good as those cheaper class-D plate amps stuffed inside the hot cabinets of those powered speakers.

I say that depending on your personal preference and use, some (like myself) will benefit from an active SYSTEM and some may not benefit at all from an active system. It all depends on your preference and use. It is NOT all black and white and clear cut.

 

[witchdoctor]

This is not BS. Nearly every track or movie you have heard in your life has been mixed on active speakers for a simple reason, accuracy. If you think I am wrong take it up with the audio engineering community and convince them you are right, LOL.
The fact is that audiophiles don't want one stop shopping but don't take my word for it. Here is a review of the Paradigm Active 40's I use. The reviewer praised them but knew they were DOA because audiophiles resist active speakers:
http://www.onhifi.com/product/paradigm_active40.htm

The new audiophile active speakers give you monster bang for the buck and include not only speakers and amps but DAC's and wireless connections as well:

http://www.whathifi.com/dynaudio/xeo-4/review

http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php/product-debuts/devialet-phantom-and-silver-phantom-december-2014/541-phantom-sound-three-first-impressions

Now I 100% agree that not everyone will benefit from an active speaker. If I have an amplifier I paid good money for that I love I am not going to chuck it, period. I could have bought JBL LSR308 speakers for my desktop system
http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Professional-LSR308-Studio-Monitor/dp/B00E8CEW7I/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1427160160&sr=8-1&keywords=jbl+lsr+308
( $450 all in, no amps or speaker cables needed) but I bought the home version JBL 230's instead ($400 MSRP, $200 Black Friday sale because I wanted to use a Parasound Zamp as part of my Z component system. I am sure my Parasound Zamp is better than the JBL class D amps in the LSR 308 but I could be wrong because I have not compared yet.

 

[macddmac]

Check out the new Dynaudio Focus XD s
Spen-D but great reviews so far
http://focusxd.dynaudio.com

 

[witchdoctor]

I checked with my local Dynaudio dealer, and I think they are around $7K.
The new Devialet Phantoms are around $5K a pair but don't upsample to 24/192 like the Focus.

 

[macddmac]

Yep, 7k for the 200's, up to 13ish for the 600's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am sure my Parasound Zamp is better than the JBL class D amps in the LSR 308 but I could be wrong because I have not compared yet.

I think you're correct. I think your amp is at least as good as the plate amp they used in those speakers.

Regarding reviews, all reviewers are exactly like the rest of us. They all have different opinions. It doesn't make them right or wrong. It's not like they conducted a double-blinded study consisting of 20,000 people from 20 different facilities across the country and found that 80% of the people unequivocally favored the powered speakers.

Not black & white as some people make it out.

 

[lsiberian]

All they are doing with powered speaker is placing a cheaper class-D plate amp inside the cabinet.

In terms of efficiency, "synergy", "timbre matching" or whatever, it is utterly no different than using an OUTBOARD active crossover and OUTBOARD amplifier.

However, the OUTBOARD components you CHOOSE may be a lot better in quality depending on what you get.

The outboard amps from ATI, Lexicon, Theta, Mark Levinson, Krell, Bryston, Parasound, Anthem, Classe, McIntosh, Sunfire, Adcom, etc. are unequivocally at least as good as those cheaper class-D plate amps stuffed inside the hot cabinets of those powered speakers.

I say that depending on your personal preference and use, some (like myself) will benefit from an active SYSTEM and some may not benefit at all from an active system. It all depends on your preference and use. It is NOT all black and white and clear cut.

You can use whatever amps you want with an active speaker. You just put the amp in between the DSP and the Speaker.

 

[chadnliz]

I went active in my reference room a few months ago and for most part like this chapter of my audio story. I tend to keep speakers a few years or so then try something new and usually very different to keep things fun. I've done dynamic, electrostatic, planar, hybrids of all so moving to active pro speakers was a whole new ball game.
I am into loud music, concert levels in basement and live DVD shows....loud movies are great too. My JBL pro speakers do not offer as much image depth as other speakers but that's no real issue. Overall I like this set up so far and having extra room is always a bonus.

 

[witchdoctor]

Which JBL's did you get? What about your sub?