A/V receiver vs. Separates

[axle_rose]

Yeah, I think 100% of us agree on the importance of speakers, placement, acoustics.

I definitely agree on the PLACEBO effect on everything.

While I am a noob to this site I am not a new to audio equipment and I would say that I am getting more than a "placebo" effect in moving from an avr setup to a seperates...I also agree that many people can not tell the difference. My HK AV325 is a damn fine unit that has really nice sound but, with out a doubt, I am getting better sound reproduction with the pre-pro and amp combo on the same speakers than I was before with the HK.

I also concur that speaker placement is equally important but, you can't argue that a cheap set of Insignia speakers are going to faithfully reproduce the sound as well as say some Martin Logans, Thiels or Vincent Audio speakers. There is a reason why we have mass-market electronics.

 

[lsiberian]

While I am a noob to this site I am not a new to audio equipment and I would say that I am getting more than a "placebo" effect in moving from an avr setup to a seperates...I also agree that many people can not tell the difference. My HK AV325 is a damn fine unit that has really nice sound but, with out a doubt, I am getting better sound reproduction with the pre-pro and amp combo on the same speakers than I was before with the HK.

I also concur that speaker placement is equally important but, you can't argue that a cheap set of Insignia speakers are going to faithfully reproduce the sound as well as say some Martin Logans, Thiels or Vincent Audio speakers. There is a reason why we have mass-market electronics.

The problem is you don't realize it's placebo. If you knew it were then you wouldn't argue that fact. Double blind testing would quickly dismiss your claims. I know it's hard for folks to get the placebo effect because it's a real effect. Perception is a huge part of our interpretation of things.

We weren't talking speakers bud.

 

[axle_rose]

The problem is you don't realize it's placebo. If you knew it were then you wouldn't argue that fact. Double blind testing would quickly dismiss your claims. I know it's hard for folks to get the placebo effect because it's a real effect. Perception is a huge part of our interpretation of things.

We weren't talking speakers bud.

So, let me see if I get this straight: if we put a run-of-the-mill $149 RCA AVR Wal-mart special up against say a $500 - $600 pre-pro and $500 - $700 amp using the same speakers on both configs that no difference would be noted from participants in a sound comparison study?

No way. I am confident that some would detect differences. I'd love to take part in a study like that.

I'm not arguing anything...Perceived or not. If you put a low end avr unit up against high to higher end separates you'll notice a difference of some kind....double blind or not. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Speakers and placement were mentioned by another poster btw.

 

[lsiberian]

So, let me see if I get this straight: if we put a run-of-the-mill $149 RCA AVR Wal-mart special up against say a $500 - $600 pre-pro and $500 - $700 amp using the same speakers on both configs that no difference would be noted from participants in a sound comparison study?

No way. I am confident that some would detect differences. I'd love to take part in a study like that.

I'm not arguing anything...Perceived or not. If you put a low end avr unit up against high to higher end separates you'll notice a difference of some kind....double blind or not. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Speakers and placement were mentioned by another poster btw.

A double blind test was already done. The results are well summarized in this article
http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

The test was done by an expert in double blind testing. 60% is failing so don't think they could actually tell the difference remember that means for every 10 comparsions they guessed 6 correctly. That's very low odds. And likely would have converged to 50% as the number of tests went to infinity.

IOTW you're wrong according to the study done.

The conclusion Sound isn't what you consider when buying a AVR or Pre-pro amp. Reliability, Cost, True Power, Looks, Features, Connections, Brand preferences. Don't waste your time with other junk. Focus on what matters.

I know it all seems mysterious, but it isn't Power supplies are very similar and all perform the same function and send that signal to the same speakers.

Now of course with a pre-pro setup you can use EQ's and active crossovers to improve sound quality. So that should be remembered. Though many receivers now use AS XT which for most people does a nice job.

 

[poutanen]

Speakers and placement were mentioned by another poster btw.

Taken in context, what I meant wasn't something like Bose Jewel Cubes vs. a pair of Mission Pilastros. I meant the difference between a $1000 pair of speakers from boutique brand A, vs boutique brand B. It's something that's debated all the time.

My point is this: - reasonable speakers (ie. something a reasonable person could afford) powered by a reasonable AVR or separates will generally not sound very different than other reasonable setups... relative to the difference heard between a well setup room (placement, size and acoustics), and a poorly setup room.

 

[Davemcc]

So, let me see if I get this straight: if we put a run-of-the-mill $149 RCA AVR Wal-mart special up against say a $500 - $600 pre-pro and $500 - $700 amp using the same speakers on both configs that no difference would be noted from participants in a sound comparison study?

In the above example, it is likely that the el-cheapo receiver will be pushed into distortion far easier than a pre/pro-amp combination. You should notice this distortion when it occurs. The better the quality of receiver you choose, the less likely you are to hear any distortion and the less benefit you are are likely to derive from using separates.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

A $12,000 pair of Amps can't even beat a $200 Amp!

Oh, yeah, that's the famous double-blinded testing most of us have read about at one point of another.

Fact: Speakers sound quality differ from one another.

Fact: Processors (DSPs, Tones, EQs) sound quality differ from one another.

Fact: Room Acoustics sound quality differ from one another.

Fact: Amps, Preamps, CD players, & DACs sound quality are extremely SIMILAR unless DISTORTION takes place (clipping, defective equipments, etc.).

 

[axle_rose]

A double blind test was already done. The results are well summarized in this article
http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

The test was done by an expert in double blind testing. 60% is failing so don't think they could actually tell the difference remember that means for every 10 comparsions they guessed 6 correctly. That's very low odds. And likely would have converged to 50% as the number of tests went to infinity.

IOTW you're wrong according to the study done.

The conclusion Sound isn't what you consider when buying a AVR or Pre-pro amp. Reliability, Cost, True Power, Looks, Features, Connections, Brand preferences. Don't waste your time with other junk. Focus on what matters.

I know it all seems mysterious, but it isn't Power supplies are very similar and all perform the same function and send that signal to the same speakers.

Now of course with a pre-pro setup you can use EQ's and active crossovers to improve sound quality. So that should be remembered. Though many receivers now use AS XT which for most people does a nice job.

There is no mystery involved for me. I know the difference between pepsi and coke...double blind or not. Obviously, things like budget, cost, features and name brand factor in for anyone...I actually followed your mantra and did monster bargain hunting...fortunately for me it was easy since I have a buddy who is always upgrading...in fact for that reason alone, I haven't bought a new amp, pre-pro or AVR in nine years but, I have upgraded several times in that time frame.