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dlaloum
Senior Audioholic
Yes you are right .... still more than double the NR7100, or DRX3.4 - and substantially more than the RZ50!
"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans"
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PENG
Audioholic Slumlord
I agree those Onkyo and Integra AVRs are among the heaviest, only heavier by the Yamaha and Denon of the days.
I compiled the following top AVRs of the older days based on their measured output by S&V, you can see that Onkyo and Integra did occupy the top 2 spots based on most (not all) of the measured criteria. You can also see that weight is not always the only indicator to predict output, as the Denon in the 6th spot (I owned that one) weighed a lot less but actually measured higher in the 2 ch output and not far behind in the 5 and 7 channel driven criteria, and at lower THD+N too. That's because while power supply is obviously the key part, the output devices and heat sinks also play an important role.
Trell
Audioholic Spartan
You believe?
everettT
Audioholic Spartan
This is really simple, prove your theory by testing it with the proper methodology, it's not hard.
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PENG
Audioholic Slumlord
That's not how the electrical theories work. To see some detailed explanation, please refer to post#76 in which @dlaloum used calculations with numerical examples to make it easier to understand:
A/V Receiver Impedance Selector Switch | Page 4 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums
The funny thing is, you somehow found a diagram that led to believe the 6 ohm setting gives a higher voltage.
I got curious, because that would make no sense at all, so I googled for another Yamaha AVR's service manual and found one for the RX-A3050 and RX-V3079 that have comparable power output rating to the RX-V1070. You can look at another one such as the one for the RX-A3080 and I am sure you will see something similar.
Now take a look:
You will find that there are enough evidence to show/suggest that the diagram you posted had a few typo. So yes, I understand why you were led to believe that the 6 ohm setting gives higher rail voltage, because of the typos in that diagram, when in fact the opposite is true.
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richardjhy
Audiophyte
You're ridiculous!
I have Yamaha RX-V1070 and measured rail voltages with multimeter for both 6ohm and 8ohm settings and results completely match the schematic diagram. Even more, I compared the circuit boards with the diagram and they match.
Here is the source of RX-V1070 SERVICE MANUAL.
Yamaha RX-V1070 Audio Video Receiver Manual | HiFi Engine
www.hifiengine.com
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richardjhy
Audiophyte
Here is my RX-V1070.
gene
Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Posting an incomplete schematic doesn't prove your point. EVERY Yamaha receiver I've EVER tested produced LESS power with the impedance switch set to 6 ohms or the "lower setting". This is true whether the amp is driving a 8 ohm load or a 4 ohm load.
Yamaha RX-A6A 9.2CH 8K AV Receiver Bench Test Results!
We bench tested the Yamaha RX-A6A 9.2CH 8K 150watt/ch Atmos/DTS:X Receiver to gauge power output and uncover performance issues we discovered. We discuss the proper settings for best power delivery.
www.audioholics.com
Yamaha RX-Z7 7.1 Channel Networking A/V Receiver Review
The Yamaha RX-Z7 offers benchmark performance in virtually every category with all of the latest audio and video processing features, along with a host of multi room and networking capabilities.
www.audioholics.com
The only Yamaha product that wasn't negatively impacted with the low setting for up to 2CH driven is their dedicated 11CH Amp, the MX-A5000 and newer and the old flagships like the RX-Z11. However, I did see a negative impact on power with more than 2CH driven with the impedance switch set to low.
Yamaha AVENTAGE CX-A5000 AV Processor and MX-A5000 Amplifier Review
Review: The Yamaha AVENTAGE CX-A5000 Processor and MX-A5000 11-channel amplifier are for you if you have ever wanted reasonably-priced separates but didn't want to sacrifice features or performance.
www.audioholics.com
You can continue to fetishize the impedance switch if you like but the bottom line is it LIMITS power as it's designed to do so that the product can satisfy heat dissipation requirements to get the 4 ohm UL rating. I not only confirmed this with the product managers but also the design engineers AT Yamaha.
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PENG
Audioholic Slumlord
That seemed ironic for you to say that..
When you said things like the following:
No, it does not always mean that. I am sure you know the basic power formula and should therefore understand power output into 6 ohm will be higher at the same or even slightly lower voltage.
That's why AV receiver manufacturers often provide those impedance selectors to lower the rail voltage (or other methods) to limit the otherwise much increased load current when used with 6 ohm or lower impedance speakers. You said you measured the rail voltages, if they were higher for the 6 ohm selection, then something was not right but I wouldn't want to speculate what could be the causes.
Take a look of another numerical example:
Power = V^2/R (for simplicity, let's use a resistor load for the calculations).
For 8 ohm load, 110 W output:
V = sqrt(P*R)Into an 8 ohm load, Power =110 W, V = sqrt (8*110) = 29.66 V
For 6 ohm load, 135 W output:
V = sqrt (6*135) = 28.46 V, that's lower than that required for the 110 W rated output into 8 ohm, yet the power output is higher, using your RX-V1070's specs for this numerical example.
So please know that higher output into 6 ohm than into 8 ohm does not mean the rail voltage has to be higher, it depends on how much higher.
If you are not going to listen to others points, fine, but there is no need to be rude. We are here to help and/or learn from one another.
Happy holidays!
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paveldeg
Audioholic Intern
I doubt this applies to Denon receivers though - I ran x1700H with KEF Q floor-standers with 8 ohm setting and it sounded miserable, weak bass. All changed once I switched to 4ohm - got deeper bass and punchier sound overall.
isolar8001
Audioholic Field Marshall
Is it April First already ?
I wish...just skip winter.
I wish...just skip winter.
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paveldeg
Audioholic Intern
"When using 4 ohm speakers you draw twice the current from the amp. Voltage times ampere are watt and at 4 ohm you will only need half the voltage to produce the same watt as compared to double the voltage using 8 ohm speakers. When the voltage is dropped from the power supply when selecting a 4 ohm setting it has to drop to half voltage to produce the same watt from a 4 ohm speaker as in a 8 ohm setting using 8 ohm speakers, but it is only reduced some 35% so it will be more power available in the 4 ohm setting when using 4 ohm speakers. When using 6 ohm speakers in the 4 ohm setting it will produce the same watt as in 8 ohm setting and 8 ohm speakers.
So in reality the only important thing that change with the speaker impedance setting are how the protection circuit operates."
So essentially in Denons switching to 4 ohm stops protection triggering too early, and allows thus producing more power for 4 ohm speakers.
So in reality the only important thing that change with the speaker impedance setting are how the protection circuit operates."
Denon x3700H Impedance Setting - Different Impedance...
Which impedance setting do I use on my x3700H to drive speakers with different ohms? I can choose either 8, 6, or 4 as a single setting. I tend to listen to music medium to medium loud for about 30 min a day and then quiet as background music for 2+ hours a day. About 1 hour of medium loud TV...
www.avsforum.com
So essentially in Denons switching to 4 ohm stops protection triggering too early, and allows thus producing more power for 4 ohm speakers.
gene
Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
No, that's essentially wrong. The 4 ohm setting severely limits power and thus current into 4 ohms. The receiver isn't tripping in the low impedance settings bc it never delivers enough power to the load due to limiting it in that setting. You can read every review I've done with measurements on AVRs with the impedance switch to see the results."When using 4 ohm speakers you draw twice the current from the amp. Voltage times ampere are watt and at 4 ohm you will only need half the voltage to produce the same watt as compared to double the voltage using 8 ohm speakers. When the voltage is dropped from the power supply when selecting a 4 ohm setting it has to drop to half voltage to produce the same watt from a 4 ohm speaker as in a 8 ohm setting using 8 ohm speakers, but it is only reduced some 35% so it will be more power available in the 4 ohm setting when using 4 ohm speakers. When using 6 ohm speakers in the 4 ohm setting it will produce the same watt as in 8 ohm setting and 8 ohm speakers.
So in reality the only important thing that change with the speaker impedance setting are how the protection circuit operates."
Denon x3700H Impedance Setting - Different Impedance...
Which impedance setting do I use on my x3700H to drive speakers with different ohms? I can choose either 8, 6, or 4 as a single setting. I tend to listen to music medium to medium loud for about 30 min a day and then quiet as background music for 2+ hours a day. About 1 hour of medium loud TV...www.avsforum.com
So essentially in Denons switching to 4 ohm stops protection triggering too early, and allows thus producing more power for 4 ohm speakers.
I can't believe this is still a topic of debate.
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highfigh
Seriously, I have no life.
This thread is 14 years old- a new indoor record!
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paveldeg
Audioholic Intern
Have you tested recent Denon's models? This is not really for debate, more like to understand is this really applies to Denons as much as to Yamahas. They do have different schematics, and that guy on another forum pretty convincingly explained why at least for Denon X3700 and up setting matching impedance can actually be beneficial, he showed Denon's schematics too.
isolar8001
Audioholic Field Marshall
If you consider every point he (Ubbe2) tried to make on that thread convincing, (after every post he made being shot down by much more knowledgeable posters) you are just reinforcing your own misconception.
I see you are "hoochy" over there.
His schematics just proved how mistaken he (and you) was/are.
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paveldeg
Audioholic Intern
So, any actual technical explanation from you including schematics, besides insulting everybody who is so "mistaken" from your point of view?
I do trust Gene's measurement, but they are mostly for Yamahas, and speaking from common sense perspective - cutting output power for 4 ohm loads does not make much technical sense, the power should be same as for 8 ohms to avoid overheating, so voltage can be limited, but since amperage is higher for 4 ohms loads output power should stay same.
If it's not the case with Yamahas it's just means poor design, nothing else, it's unlikely to be same for all other AVRs.
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isolar8001
Audioholic Field Marshall
I don't need to quote Ohm's law to you anymore than the posters on that AVS thread did to Ubbe2.
It's not a point of view...it's just the facts.
Your interpretation that your system sounded better throwing that switch is just that...an interpretation.
William Lemmerhirt
Audioholic Overlord
Ubbe2… lmao. That guy……
gene
Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Nothing has changed is latest gen amp sections of D&M AVRs in terms oh how the impedance switch works. I also have direct access to the head of engineering Denon Japan and he has confirmed my findings. Be careful what you read on forums from end users that don't have the knowledge on amplifier design.
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