A new way to bi-wire your speakers

[mtrycrafts]

...
... Of course, there will be that one audiophool who wants to hold out for wireless signals over-the-air only if he has oxygen-free air.

LOL. I guess you could have 100% nitrogen atmosphere to listen to with a breathing apparatus to ease breathing. lol

 

[PENG]

I think the OP raised an honest point, okay it came across dump but I believe the intention was good. It is yet another example of the effect of Placebo, or expectation bias. People affected by such effects do seem to believe what they perceive, time and again, whether it is a cable, amp, or CD quality vs DSD256, PCM DXD thing as real.

 

[Swerd]

I think the OP raised an honest point, okay it came across dump but I believe the intention was good. It is yet another example of the effect of Placebo, or expectation bias.

I (eventually) thought the same as you, that the OP was honest but misinformed about bi-wiring. He seemed to know just enough about electronics to think he understood matters of interference in wires, without understanding that it can't matter unless transmission wires are many miles long. He invoked twisting wires without seeming to understand when it's needed and when it isn't.

He also seemed to be completely unaware of how our prior attitudes, beliefs, and expectations effect what we perceive.

The only alternative to being so misinformed was that he was trolling. We've certainly seen that before. When he took offense at being corrected, I decided to say no more about it. He ended up being a poor troll because he left so soon.

Perhaps we should refresh our list of reasons why speaker level signals sent over standard speaker cables present no problems to home audio. Instead of presenting these reasons in engineering or math terms, we should keep them in plain English.

 

[Cohibamatt]

First I would like to say I know nothing about engendered electronics and I am new to DIY audio and still trying to figure out a diode from a mosfet to a resister, but I am learning from the forum and reading what I can find.
Now for the question:
I thought speaker wire was shielded? Wouldn't that correct a lot of the issues you guys mentioned? I think it would certainly take care of bleed over signals. So basically I don't understand why one way is better than the other?


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[Swerd]

I thought speaker wire was shielded? Wouldn't that correct a lot of the issues you guys mentioned? I think it would certainly take care of bleed over signals. So basically I don't understand why one way is better than the other?

Shielding is typically used to prevent outside electromagnetic interference (EMI) or radio frequency interference (RFI) from getting into the analog music signals transmitted in wires. The voltage levels of the signal matter, as do the voltage levels of the interference. In home audio, shielded RCA interconnect wires are used between various analog music sources, pre-amps or receivers, and amps at these rather low voltages:

Phono or Microphone Level (roughly 5 mV or less)
Line Level (roughly 0.15-0.2 V)
Pre-amp Level (roughly 1-10 V)​

In home audio, speaker wire does not require shielding. After amplification, Speaker Level (roughly 1-100 V) is high enough so that interference, such as EMI or RFI, is at too low a voltage level to interfere over the lengths of wire typically used. If speaker wires were miles long, they might need shielding.

 

[Dave Blount]

Useless like tits on a bull.

love tits on a bull ........

 

[Cohibamatt]

Thank you for the explanation. Just so I am clear, before amplification shielding necessary after does not matter.


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[William Lemmerhirt]

Don't try and milk one!!!

 

[Swerd]

Just so I am clear, before amplification shielding necessary after does not matter.

Yes

 

[Cohibamatt]

Thank you.


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[Art Vandelay]

In home audio, speaker wire does not require shielding. After amplification, Speaker Level (roughly 1-100 V) is high enough so that interference, such as EMI or RFI, is at too low a voltage level to interfere over the lengths of wire typically used. If speaker wires were miles long, they might need shielding.

If you live in close proximity to a TV or FM transmitter it's possible for the power amplifier to experience interference via speaker leads and in some cases to the point of catastrophic failure. I know this from personal experience too, having operated high powered radio transmitters from home.

Unlike the amplifier's input, the output is not always filtered from RF, and RF can find a path to the inverting input via the feedback resistor. Fortunately, most amplifier designers these days will include a zobel network at the output for stability as well as RFI rejection. A second point of entry for RF is via the mains cable and power supply.

I've seen TV / FM signals on my scope when testing and repairing amplifiers and on one occasion the transimpedance stage was actually amplifying the RF to a reasonable level. Although it didn't result in a malfunction or immediately audible effects it might have reduced the amplifier's slewing limits, so ideally it's best eliminated through sensible design and layout.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Don't try and milk one!!!

Just make sure it is tranquilized.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

If you live in close proximity to a TV or FM transmitter it's possible for the power amplifier to experience interference via speaker leads and in some cases to the point of catastrophic failure. I know this from personal experience too, having operated high powered radio transmitters from home.

Unlike the amplifier's input, the output is not always filtered from RF, and RF can find a path to the inverting input via the feedback resistor. Fortunately, most amplifier designers these days will include a zobel network at the output for stability as well as RFI rejection. A second point of entry for RF is via the mains cable and power supply.

I've seen TV / FM signals on my scope when testing and repairing amplifiers and on one occasion the transimpedance stage was actually amplifying the RF to a reasonable level. Although it didn't result in a malfunction or immediately audible effects it might have reduced the amplifier's slewing limits, so ideally it's best eliminated through sensible design and layout.

When my neighbor was alive, bless his soul, he operated Hamm radio. Came through my subs, and we played hell trying to keep him out. Thankfully he was helpful and resourceful. Nothing like hearing your neighbors muffled voice coming out of your subs at 6:30 in the morning...

 

[Art Vandelay]

When my neighbor was alive, bless his soul, he operated Hamm radio. Came through my subs, and we played hell trying to keep him out. Thankfully he was helpful and resourceful. Nothing like hearing your neighbors muffled voice coming out of your subs at 6:30 in the morning...

lol.

Yes, most radio amateurs (Hams) use single sideband modulation, so it sounds a bit like donald duck when it's detected without carrier insertion.

At least there was no damage done and the problem was rectified - or 'un-rectified' to be technically correct.

My radio experimentation was primary at mid VHF frequencies and I used a 1kW PA and an antenna array that gave me an EIRP (effective isotropic radiated power) of roughly 40kW.

I succeeded with contacts up to 1000 miles away and greater using mostly tropospheric propagation modes, but unfortunately I also managed to completely destroy one neighbour's multimedia amplifier and speakers and also wiped out his TV reception when the antenna array was pointing in his direction, - which happened to be every Saturday morning at 8am. What was really impressive was that he watched cable TV.

 

[lovinthehd]

lol.

Yes, most radio amateurs (Hams) use single sideband modulation, so it sounds a bit like donald duck when it's detected without carrier insertion.

At least there was no damage done and the problem was rectified - or 'un-rectified' to be technically correct.

My radio experimentation was primary at mid VHF frequencies and I used a 1kW PA and an antenna array that gave me an EIRP (effective isotropic radiated power) of roughly 40kW.

I succeeded with contacts up to 1000 miles away and greater using mostly tropospheric propagation modes, but unfortunately I also managed to completely destroy one neighbour's multimedia amplifier and speakers and also wiped out his TV reception when the antenna array was pointing in his direction, - which happened to be every Saturday morning at 8am. What was really impressive was that he watched cable TV.

So you're just saying you're an irresponsible propagator?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

lol.

Yes, most radio amateurs (Hams) use single sideband modulation, so it sounds a bit like donald duck when it's detected without carrier insertion.

At least there was no damage done and the problem was rectified - or 'un-rectified' to be technically correct.

My radio experimentation was primary at mid VHF frequencies and I used a 1kW PA and an antenna array that gave me an EIRP (effective isotropic radiated power) of roughly 40kW.

I succeeded with contacts up to 1000 miles away and greater using mostly tropospheric propagation modes, but unfortunately I also managed to completely destroy one neighbour's multimedia amplifier and speakers and also wiped out his TV reception when the antenna array was pointing in his direction, - which happened to be every Saturday morning at 8am. What was really impressive was that he watched cable TV.

Wow, that's funny!
I don't know much about his equipment room, but he had about a dozen antennas up in the trees(were in white pines about 90'tall or so). Iirc, he said something about using much more power than the FCC would allow legally, and that they'd probably shut him down. Don't know if he was stretching that or not. He was a paralyzed former airborne man, and let me build his L/R theater with him. Yeah, he was great in finding a solution, and felt pretty bad but loved his radio. Lol