A new way to bi-wire your speakers

[nrg1275]

You are confusing bi-AMPING with bi-WIRING, which I think is where the confusion comes in. With Biamping, the high and low signal is separated BEFORE the amp. In biwiring the full signal is on both wires. In the diagram shown, effectively they are identical.

I am not confusing the two, but thank-you for trying to understand instead of attack. I am talking about tasking a run of speaker wire with only one signal, be it positive or negative, as opposed to having them run side by side, or in some cases intertwined in a twisted/braided cable, like in a Kimber Kable 4/8/12TC.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Hi all,

A quick word to anyone wanting to bi-wire their speakers, or just tweak the way they currently have it done. Please do yourself a favour and check out this picture/diagram. Cheers!

nrg1275

View attachment 20100

If your cable run is long there could be an advantage from reduced capacitance, particularly if your amplifier is sensitive to a C reactive load, so it's not necessarily such a silly idea from an engineering perspective. Noting too that bi-wiring conventionally has the effect of doubling the capacitance, as well as halving the resistance.

Of course the best speaker cable is none at all, and regardless of cost the best results are always achieved by using the shortest length possible. A short length of cheap cable is better than a long length of expensive cable.

 

[TLS Guy]

I am not confusing the two, but thank-you for trying to understand instead of attack. I am talking about tasking a run of speaker wire with only one signal, be it positive or negative, as opposed to having them run side by side, or in some cases intertwined in a twisted/braided cable, like in a Kimber Kable 4/8/12TC.

Well you have changed the situation, but the effect will not be audible. Since the return paths are not side by side, your connection will have zero inductance. It will also have zero capacitance since both conductors are at the same potential.

However the inductance and capacitance of speaker wire has been well investigated, and the self inductance and capacitance of speaker cable is insignificant at audio frequencies. The only spec. relevant in speaker wire is the resistance in ohms per foot.

Your system is certainly nothing to shout about from the roof tops.

You won't get any traction here with your nonsense. Members here are well versed in these issues.
If you want to get traction on this you need an Audiophool voodoo forum.

 

[highfigh]

All wire is made up of positive and negative runs, which are separated [isolated] from one another, right? Why? So they don't interfere/interact with one another. All I am suggesting is further separating [isolating] them.

If, by '...interfere/interact with one another' you mean 'avoid causing a direct short circuit then, yes, that's the reason they're insulated from each other. They're not isolated when the insulated conductors are in the same jacket or arranged parallel, as with zip cord, right? They're certainly not separated by much distance in a 4 conductor cable with a single jacket either, and you know, that works very well. Using four conductor cable is also good for wiring two speakers with one run or using two wires for positive and the other two for the negative. That has the added benefit of increasing the wire gauge, too.

I miss audio in the 1970s. We didn't worry about this kind of stuff- we connected the speakers with decent wire, sat back and enjoyed the music

If you want the best imaging? Work with the speaker placement and the room's furnishings. If it needs help, work with the acoustics.

I used speaker wires of different length and to my surprise, I didn't walk in a circle, or anything like that.

 

[PENG]

Yes, I understand that. Just a quick follow-up then, which will probably open up another can of worms, but here goes - why do manufacturers braid/twist positive and negative runs of wire? Again, please keep in mind that I have NOTHING to gain here - I am simply suggesting no cost tweaks and asking questions.

Twisted pairs are used for longer runs typically found in communications applications. It can reduce noise picked up from external elements. In the example you used, there is no point doing anything fancy for many reasons, below are just two examples.

1. The wires are relatively short, and the signal frequencies aren't that high, so the effects of inductance and capacitance are negligible.
2. Not that it matters, but the red and black wires carry the same signal, just opposite in polarity, so any induced noise or interference you referred to will cancel out anyway.

Theoretically your so called new way could be worse (though negligible and with practically zero effect) because in bi-wire, the two red wires will no longer carry the exact same signal, and they won't be exactly 180 degrees out of phase either, so you won't even get the cancellation effects.

 

[PENG]

Twisted pairs are used for longer runs typically found in communications applications. It can reduce noise picked up from external elements. In the example you used, there is no point doing anything fancy for many reasons, below are just two examples.

1. The wires are relatively short, and the signal frequencies aren't that high, so the effects of inductance and capacitance are negligible.
2. Not that it matters, but the red and black wires carry the same signal, just opposite in polarity, so any induced noise or interference you referred to will cancel out anyway.

Theoretically your so called new way could be worse (though negligible and with practically zero effect) because in bi-wire, the two red wires will no longer carry the exact same signal, and they won't be exactly 180 degrees out of phase either, so you won't even get the cancellation effects.

One more point, if you worry about the speaker cables, next you want to separate are the low level signal interconnects, but don't bother.

 

[j_garcia]

If your cable run is long there could be an advantage from reduced capacitance, particularly if your amplifier is sensitive to a C reactive load, so it's not necessarily such a silly idea from an engineering perspective. Noting too that bi-wiring conventionally has the effect of doubling the capacitance, as well as halving the resistance.

Of course the best speaker cable is none at all, and regardless of cost the best results are always achieved by using the shortest length possible. A short length of cheap cable is better than a long length of expensive cable.

I agree and didn't want to go there because it will confuse people, there can be effects in some situations. For the signal level we are talking about and the lengths of the average speaker wire run, there will be no real world benefit.

I am not confusing the two, but thank-you for trying to understand instead of attack. I am talking about tasking a run of speaker wire with only one signal, be it positive or negative, as opposed to having them run side by side, or in some cases intertwined in a twisted/braided cable, like in a Kimber Kable 4/8/12TC.

Communication type signal isn't the same as already amplified audio signal. I've used the Kimber speaker wire too. Again, I heard no benefits. Speaker wire is the LAST place you should ever look for noticeable improvements in your system. Moving the speaker a few inches or degrees will have FAR more of an effect than any speaker wire.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Actually, in reality, you may be hurting your setup. Two wires in one jacket or in very near proximity will cancel out anything induced as the induced currents are in opposite direction. Separated, you have a slightly different induced current time wise, much less cancellation.
Cable inductance is different between the two setups.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Actually, in reality, you may be hurting your setup. Two wires in one jacket or in very near proximity will cancel out anything induced as the induced currents are in opposite direction. Separated, you have a slightly different induced current time wise, much less cancellation.
Cable inductance is different between the two setups.

Yes, there is some field and inductance cancellation in a typical speaker cable but inductance is still very low and even with a long cable run the total inductance at high frequencies will be dominated by the tweeter voice coil inductance and/or the amplifier's output inductor in typical SS amplifiers.

It's a common misconception that interconnects and speaker cables are examples of transmission lines, when in reality they exhibit characteristic impedances that are wildly different from the connected load impedance.

 

[Verdinut]

Bi-wiring must have first been presented by an audio cable company. Of course, the more wire you sell, the more money in! It's simply bullshit!

 

[Swerd]

I don't understand the hostility here.

It’s not the only thing you don’t seem to understand. If you really believe what you’ve proposed, you don’t understand electronics.

I just shared a simple tweak that worked for me, and just to reiterate - COSTS NOTHING. As far as the crack about "pseudo-science" goes, I don't think separating "positive" and "negative" could be categorized as such.

Underlying your claim is another belief, that you can clearly perceive a difference in sound quality from an "alternate wiring". That’s where the pseudo-science comes in. Because you made one single observation while fully aware what change you did, your claim qualifies as an unconvincing sighted observation without any scientific controls.

Of course the best speaker cable is none at all…

I’m with him. Eliminate all speaker cables and go digital wireless over-the-air. Of course, there will be that one audiophool who wants to hold out for wireless signals over-the-air only if he has oxygen-free air.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Yes, I understand that. Just a quick follow-up then, which will probably open up another can of worms, but here goes - why do manufacturers braid/twist positive and negative runs of wire? Again, please keep in mind that I have NOTHING to gain here - I am simply suggesting no cost tweaks and asking questions.

You are wrong right there as well! No one here uses bi-wires so it would cost money to buy more cable to be able to bi-wire for no gain. Even if you were to bi-amp it is close to no gain with added risks.

 

[Chu Gai]

Then why separate positive and negative at all?

Because you can. If you can buy into that, then you're an ideal candidate for the audiophile selling wire mongers where dubious claims bolstered by unfounded testimonials reign supreme. Apart from being able to charge you higher prices, they can sell you even more wire.

 

[sharkman]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about this site. First thread I go to and am reminded by the arrogant snobbery why I don't visit here any more. Keep up the good work fellas, I'm sure this forum will grow into another avs forum. Not.

 

[j_garcia]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about this site. First thread I go to and am reminded by the arrogant snobbery why I don't visit here any more. Keep up the good work fellas, I'm sure this forum will grow into another avs forum. Not.

LOL. Truth and reality are snobbery. I'd be quite pleased to have this place NOT be AVS.

 

[highfigh]

You are wrong right there as well! No one here uses bi-wires so it would cost money to buy more cable to be able to bi-wire for no gain. Even if you were to bi-amp it is close to no gain with added risks.

You mean 'bi-amp' using the A & B speaker terminals of the same amplifier? I don't know about risks- if the amp is worth anything, it should be able to handle this load but yeah, the only value is in being able to use wire that was already sitting idle.

 

[highfigh]

Because you can. If you can buy into that, then you're an ideal candidate for the audiophile selling wire mongers where dubious claims bolstered by unfounded testimonials reign supreme. Apart from being able to charge you higher prices, they can sell you even more wire.

Monster Cable training sessions (about 30 years ago) used to go into the speed of high frequencies vs low frequencies, and this is the reason they have wire with two pairs- one is larger than the other to accommodate the signals. They also have different twist rates, to make up for the time difference. I asked how timing errors could be solved for cables of different lengths if the twist rate was constant and the guy had no answer. Wasn't happy about that question, either.

 

[highfigh]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about this site. First thread I go to and am reminded by the arrogant snobbery why I don't visit here any more. Keep up the good work fellas, I'm sure this forum will grow into another avs forum. Not.

Care to show errors in the comments that go against the "My wires make my system better" ideas?

 

[tyhjaarpa]

You mean 'bi-amp' using the A & B speaker terminals of the same amplifier? I don't know about risks- if the amp is worth anything, it should be able to handle this load but yeah, the only value is in being able to use wire that was already sitting idle.

The risk is there if you have no idea what you are doing and do it wrong. Ie. cause a short circuit.

 

[highfigh]

The risk is there if you have no idea what you are doing and do it wrong. Ie. cause a short circuit.

Isn't that part of the reason protection circuits are in amplifiers?

Anyone who tries to do this without knowing what to do is on their own. If they read all of the comments recommending that it be avoided and still do it, it's on them if they have a problem.