A little veneer work

[MrBoat]

of a slightly different approach. Most people use titebond, or melted titebond or contact cement. The veneer I will ultimately be using is raw with no backing, so I don't want to use adhesives that don't set hard. In the case of the Continuum speakers I built, I used MDF which is further preserved in thinned epoxy. Contact cement will stick to it quite well, but it may not subdue raw veneer. Most cold press glues for veneer, only work on untreated wood or MDF. I aim to use epoxy. I have used epoxy for veneer before, but those were thicker say, 3/32-1/8". Those also dead ended so there was no concern with visible glue lines.

What sets epoxy apart from other adhesives is that you don't want to clamp them too tight. It needs a film layer, more so than wood glue and definitely more than resorcinol, which takes a very tight joint and high pressure.

So, with that said, I set out to find the fine line between too much and too little and to get the feel for the right amount of clampage. What I do have is several different kinds of epoxy and fillers. From wood flour (extra fine wood dust) to Cabosil, phenolic micro-balloons, talc, alumina, glass fibers, glass spheres and even dryer lint works for some things. Wheat flour also makes a good filler for making fairing putty in a pinch.

I ended up using just a little Cabosil with "Thick" epoxy resin for my test pieces. Just enough filler (a resin with the consistency of ketchup) to keep from squeezing all the resin out, yet with enough clamping pressure to assure the veneer is flat. I used it on a scrap piece of unsealed birch plywood and I used a scrap of wood backed veneer.

I let it cure 3 hours, and left the overhang so I would have something to grab onto in which to try to delaminate the piece. This is why I used a wood backed veneer for the test. I got the veneer to delaminate from it's backing, and I got the backing to break the birch plywood skin, but the epoxy joint held. I then cut the test piece in half to see what the glue line looks like and to make sure it was consistent throughout. The test passed on all points.

I'll add more as I progress with the actual cabinets.

 

[highfigh]

Ever seen a vacuum bag? Look into it.

IMO, you're over-thinking this. The Egyptians used hide glue to bond wood veneers to a substrate over 2000 years ago and they're still intact. Asian and European woodworkers have been doing the same since they heard about it.

I don't know why you coated the MDF with epoxy unless these will be in a marine environment. For almost any other use, the glue used for veneering will seal it well enough. Even a lot of the most expensive speakers were built without this step.

 

[MrBoat]

Ever seen a vacuum bag? Look into it.

IMO, you're over-thinking this. The Egyptians used hide glue to bond wood veneers to a substrate over 2000 years ago and they're still intact. Asian and European woodworkers have been doing the same since they heard about it.

I don't know why you coated the MDF with epoxy unless these will be in a marine environment. For almost any other use, the glue used for veneering will seal it well enough. Even a lot of the most expensive speakers were built without this step.

"Overthinking" perhaps, unless one is versed in composites and has the supplies tooling on hand. Epoxy is what I have the most of. It's just another way.

I have a vacuum bag/press setup and a vacuum stabilization setup as well.

I have used hide glue before for both laminating wood, and in joinery as well.

We have pretty large swings in humidity here. I don't always have climate control on. I am also going to use epoxy to fill the grain before finish coats. This just keeps it to a most compatible and blended matrix. The fairing putty I use on the brad nail holes, and whatever leveling is also epoxy based. It will adhere better than hide glue would to say, bondo. The veneer cold press glues also don't stick to bondo, or other putties that tend to create sealed portions separate from the substrate. I don't like using something like drywall compound or water based wood putty like Durham's under laminates.

Now that the MDF is epoxy sealed, it sands much more uniformly (flat) and will not absorb adhesive, which can cause glue starved situations, so many require a primary seal coat of adhesive of sorts anyway.

I've seen MDF change/fail in cabinetry over time in interior applications. What I have done here is much more resilient and will likely never fail, or change, for that matter. Overkill? Perhaps, but most of the plusses are just by default and it's really not anymore difficult than anything else.

 

[MrBoat]

I should add that this method is not the best for everyone or the best way to approach this. Wood veneer finds it's way on other substrates other than (a dash panel in a car, maybe?) wood, or wood based products. I did not know the veneer I got from a friend was unbacked until he brought it over. I had sealed these cabinets with plans to use contact cement. One thing I dislike about contact cement is dry wood drinks it up and almost always needs a seal coat which can get a little messy. Contact cement happens to stick very well to cured, sanded epoxy.

The other thing that epoxy is great as, is a superior primer for paint as it shrinks very little once cured, which is not the case with solvent cured primers, which tend to out-gas/shrink for months after.

In the case of painted MDF, you will almost never see edges/joints telegraph through the finish later on with epoxy treated substrates, as it tends to equalize everything quite well.

 

[MrBoat]

Perhaps this will show a little method to my madness with using epoxy to seal MDF. While I could just go neat with typical applications, I tend to do quite a bit of extra fairing work with regard to proud edges and even tool marks or surfaces in general.

Take the face edges of this cabinet. By the time you glue everything up, things may move, even if ever so slightly. I like everything crispy and true. While more typical methods would be good enough, and likely not show in photo representations on the internet, I would notice it point blank and have to live with it. Would I lose sleep over it? No. I would get over it in time and forget it. But, while I am at it, these details are usually something like 5 minutes of extra effort from being that much better. After all the other work that's involved, why not?

This is one of my most used tools. The longboard (or long file). Every hobby I have somehow requires sanding, and lots of it. I cross sand this on the bias from both directions. The resultant sand scratches tell the real truth.

Then I go over it with another longboard I made years ago with 120 grit on it. I then just sight the corners and fine tune my lines with this board, and shrink the scratches from the previous step. I also cross sand the most visible faces with it to expose any potential high/low areas. MDF is not always as flat as people think. This step could save 3 or 4 coats of clear alone if it were to show up after. Again, the epoxy coating makes this all sand much more uniformly.

 

[highfigh]

"Overthinking" perhaps, unless one is versed in composites and has the supplies tooling on hand. Epoxy is what I have the most of. It's just another way.

I have a vacuum bag/press setup and a vacuum stabilization setup as well.

I have used hide glue before for both laminating wood, and in joinery as well.

We have pretty large swings in humidity here. I don't always have climate control on. I am also going to use epoxy to fill the grain before finish coats. This just keeps it to a most compatible and blended matrix. The fairing putty I use on the brad nail holes, and whatever leveling is also epoxy based. It will adhere better than hide glue would to say, bondo. The veneer cold press glues also don't stick to bondo, or other putties that tend to create sealed portions separate from the substrate. I don't like using something like drywall compound or water based wood putty like Durham's under laminates.

Now that the MDF is epoxy sealed, it sands much more uniformly (flat) and will not absorb adhesive, which can cause glue starved situations, so many require a primary seal coat of adhesive of sorts anyway.

I've seen MDF change/fail in cabinetry over time in interior applications. What I have done here is much more resilient and will likely never fail, or change, for that matter. Overkill? Perhaps, but most of the plusses are just by default and it's really not anymore difficult than anything else.

I have never seen MDF fail indoors, unless the humidity was insanely high, constantly or due to flooding. Particle board, OTOH, is far more like a soda cracker and far less dimensionally stable. Cheap MDF, like the stuff at Home Depot, Menard's and probably Lowe's, isn't worth using, IMO. I buy that from suppliers to the cabinet industry because it's stiffer, has a surface that accepts glue better and doesn't de-laminate when it bends. It also doesn't crush when it's dropped and the stuff from the big box stores does. MDF is technically more of a paper product than a wood product but as said by the guy who sharpens for me, "Particle board is the hot dog of the lumber industry".

Do you use screws, nails or staples when you build with MDF?

 

[highfigh]

Perhaps this will show a little method to my madness with using epoxy to seal MDF. While I could just go neat with typical applications, I tend to do quite a bit of extra fairing work with regard to proud edges and even tool marks or surfaces in general.

Take the face edges of this cabinet. By the time you glue everything up, things may move, even if ever so slightly. I like everything crispy and true. While more typical methods would be good enough, and likely not show in photo representations on the internet, I would notice it point blank and have to live with it. Would I lose sleep over it? No. I would get over it in time and forget it. But, while I am at it, these details are usually something like 5 minutes of extra effort from being that much better. After all the other work that's involved, why not?

This is one of my most used tools. The longboard (or long file). Every hobby I have somehow requires sanding, and lots of it. I cross sand this on the bias from both directions. The resultant sand scratches tell the real truth.



Then I go over it with another longboard I made years ago with 120 grit on it. I then just sight the corners and fine tune my lines with this board, and shrink the scratches from the previous step. I also cross sand the most visible faces with it to expose any potential high/low areas. MDF is not always as flat as people think. This step could save 3 or 4 coats of clear alone if it were to show up after. Again, the epoxy coating makes this all sand much more uniformly.

If I'm painting, I seal but if I'm veneering, I don't put anything in/on the material that will prevent glue absorption. If the box is vented, I seal the inside if it's going to be in a marine environment (like a boat) but even then, it's not always necessary because the boat may have air conditioning and could be stored indoors. Besides- once the veneer and finish are on, it's really not going to be affected by moisture unless it's over a long time period.

If you find that the MDF isn't as flat as you want, a filler/primer can save time. Also, if you use a table saw, a belt from a wide belt sander can be a good alternative to a long sander like the one in the photo- those can rock because it's only supported in a small area, whereas, a table saw will hit everything without requiring any manual stability.

 

[MrBoat]

If I'm painting, I seal but if I'm veneering, I don't put anything in/on the material that will prevent glue absorption. If the box is vented, I seal the inside if it's going to be in a marine environment (like a boat) but even then, it's not always necessary because the boat may have air conditioning and could be stored indoors. Besides- once the veneer and finish are on, it's really not going to be affected by moisture unless it's over a long time period.

If you find that the MDF isn't as flat as you want, a filler/primer can save time. Also, if you use a table saw, a belt from a wide belt sander can be a good alternative to a long sander like the one in the photo- those can rock because it's only supported in a small area, whereas, a table saw will hit everything without requiring any manual stability.

Again, it depends on what you are used to or have on hand. I don't have access to a belt surfacer or planer and a lot of large, flat areas in the custom auto trade are faired with a long board to a meticulous degree of accuracy.

The first long board in the photo is spined and dead flat. I chose it because of that and I have had it about 25 years by now. The second one pictured, is also dead flat made from a well seasoned section of 7 ply, BS1088 rated, 9mm marine plywood. The only other purpose to that particular one is it is built to also sand slightly curved areas which is why it is made spineless, but that control has to be imparted in the tool to match the surface. In this case, it's a touch up tool and I have enough hours on the end of that thing to make it do pretty much whatever I want it to.

Epoxy is hard to beat for adhesion both molecularly, and mechanically. In this case it's a mechanical bond on it's own keyed self. At any rate, you would destroy the substrate trying to remove it. Here is a cut away showing how far thinned epoxy soaks into MDF. Approximately 3/16" in the case of these MDF rings. Paint lasts 3-4 times longer over epoxy than just about any other primer. I have proof of that if you would like an example, along with many others.

Most traditional fillers/primers shrink as the solvent evacuates over time. I have seen countless examples of joinery telegraphing through painted surfaces, including two part LPU's. A correctly faired surface should only need a semi-transparent coat of primer/surfacer remaining, yet people lay it on heavy to correct a multitude of sins. It's only really meant for the tiniest imperfections and a minimal tie coat. Epoxy, in this application, tends to take care of it all at once and any shrinkage would be minimal, comparatively.

Again, this is not a suggestion or tutorial. It's just something a bit different than the norm. This particular method just happens to be easy for me, personally. I've had no issues using it.

I have maybe 45 mins in spotting/fairing these cabinets today. They are dead-nuts-flat, including the bottoms, which is even more redundant, considering.

I just thought some might be interested in seeing a different way.

 

[MrBoat]

An example with the killing two birds with one bullet in this situation using a raw burl veneer and epoxy. In the case of this birch, there is holes visible around all the figures when holding this veneer up to the light. Notice the color of the epoxy coated MDF. It's brown. If I were to use another glue, it would have to either be colored, which could then stain the wood, or thin enough not to soak through, and then fill the holes from the top with a paste wood filler, or sawdust wet sanded in with the finish, which to me is a PITA.

Since the epoxy is clear, the brown color of the cabinet is almost a perfect match, and the color transmits through to the surface. Before adding the plate for the press, I added a layer of visqueen between the plate and the veneer. The epoxy has about 10% cabosil as a thickener that shows up white collectively in the mixing pot, but disappears in the thinner layer of the glue-up on the cabinet. Also, these holes are all now filled flush. or slightly beyond. Now it will require only a skim coat of epoxy to fill and seal for a sanding/blocking coat. No grain or imperfections will show on the clear coats that follow.

Also, since the adhesive is interlocked from bottom to top, the veneer will never lift or bubble. I used a fast hardener with this mix, which makes for a very rigid cure. Once I seal the entire surface, it will be all the same color.

 

[highfigh]

Again, it depends on what you are used to or have on hand. I don't have access to a belt surfacer or planer and a lot of large, flat areas in the custom auto trade are faired with a long board to a meticulous degree of accuracy.

The first long board in the photo is spined and dead flat. I chose it because of that and I have had it about 25 years by now. The second one pictured, is also dead flat made from a well seasoned section of 7 ply, BS1088 rated, 9mm marine plywood. The only other purpose to that particular one is it is built to also sand slightly curved areas which is why it is made spineless, but that control has to be imparted in the tool to match the surface. In this case, it's a touch up tool and I have enough hours on the end of that thing to make it do pretty much whatever I want it to.

Epoxy is hard to beat for adhesion both molecularly, and mechanically. In this case it's a mechanical bond on it's own keyed self. At any rate, you would destroy the substrate trying to remove it. Here is a cut away showing how far thinned epoxy soaks into MDF. Approximately 3/16" in the case of these MDF rings. Paint lasts 3-4 times longer over epoxy than just about any other primer. I have proof of that if you would like an example, along with many others.

Most traditional fillers/primers shrink as the solvent evacuates over time. I have seen countless examples of joinery telegraphing through painted surfaces, including two part LPU's. A correctly faired surface should only need a semi-transparent coat of primer/surfacer remaining, yet people lay it on heavy to correct a multitude of sins. It's only really meant for the tiniest imperfections and a minimal tie coat. Epoxy, in this application, tends to take care of it all at once and any shrinkage would be minimal, comparatively.

Again, this is not a suggestion or tutorial. It's just something a bit different than the norm. This particular method just happens to be easy for me, personally. I've had no issues using it.

I have maybe 45 mins in spotting/fairing these cabinets today. They are dead-nuts-flat, including the bottoms, which is even more redundant, considering.

I just thought some might be interested in seeing a different way.

You made an important point about something I have seen very few times in the various forums I've read- thinning the epoxy. It almost seems that people want to make more work for themselves when they use the stuff by laying it on thick and ugly, then making a career of sanding it smooth and then trying to make it flat and conform to the dimensions they need. I have used polyester resin for the same purpose and it's great. Although not quite as good as epoxy, if I have some poly resin left over, I'll use that rather than buy a new container of epoxy when I know I won't use it for a while.

I do low voltage work in some fairly high-end homes and one thing I really like is seeing cabinetry and other woodwork that has been painted well. I don't like brush marks, but when the painter can make it extremely smooth, that can look really good, too. Still not the same as seeing the first coat(s) of paint that were sprayed with no flaws. I'm working on two homes now that have new cabinets- sprayed with pre-cat lacquer and the joints are beautiful. Time will tell if they stay that way. Invisible edges and joints are important and I have seen speakers and turntable bases that were fairly expensive, but the finish didn't impress me, at all- if they want to charge that much, they should spend the time on the finishing that makes it look the way I expect that yours do- no orange peel, no imperfections telegraphing, no areas where it's clearly not flat.

 

[MrBoat]

You made an important point about something I have seen very few times in the various forums I've read- thinning the epoxy. It almost seems that people want to make more work for themselves when they use the stuff by laying it on thick and ugly, then making a career of sanding it smooth and then trying to make it flat and conform to the dimensions they need. I have used polyester resin for the same purpose and it's great. Although not quite as good as epoxy, if I have some poly resin left over, I'll use that rather than buy a new container of epoxy when I know I won't use it for a while.

I do low voltage work in some fairly high-end homes and one thing I really like is seeing cabinetry and other woodwork that has been painted well. I don't like brush marks, but when the painter can make it extremely smooth, that can look really good, too. Still not the same as seeing the first coat(s) of paint that were sprayed with no flaws. I'm working on two homes now that have new cabinets- sprayed with pre-cat lacquer and the joints are beautiful. Time will tell if they stay that way. Invisible edges and joints are important and I have seen speakers and turntable bases that were fairly expensive, but the finish didn't impress me, at all- if they want to charge that much, they should spend the time on the finishing that makes it look the way I expect that yours do- no orange peel, no imperfections telegraphing, no areas where it's clearly not flat.

I painted my boat, with a high gloss, alkyd based paint, using a blend of solvents and a special, badger brush that has people tell me I am lying when I tell them it was painted with a brush and (roll and tip) roller. It's actually more bold in color for the brush aligning the pigment just so with a single stroke in one direction. Consequently, this was something that was pointed out to me with metallic paints and different pigment types years ago. Still, with alkyd paint on interior trim, I like fine brush texture as long as it matches the arrangement of the millwork and grain. Modern cabinetry I would probably like sprayed but I'm not really a fan of modern architecture/interiors so I really have no preferences there.

There are certainly high end finishes using different, and possibly more sensible approaches than what I have demonstrated here, but I don't have the equipment (safety with concerns to isocyanates - eeek!) or the right climate to apply them so this ends up being the back door approach to the same end with just enough redundancy to cover my a$$.

When I started on this, it was looking like I was going to have to buy yet another kit (with more than I need and a limited shelf life) for a different method to apply this stuff over a different surface entirely to be satisfactory. It was just recalling making laminations with wood epoxy that it occurred to me to use it. It actually worked better than expected. I can imagine people not used to using it having a hard time with it though.

 

[ARES24]

I have had the issue of being able to notice the join points in my mdf cabinetry on my speakers. That being said I have only done three projects with mdf. I can also notice the join on my subs that I have built with ply and hardwood, though it is hard to tell. I generally stick to veneer projects now, perhaps with an mdf front baffle.

For my projects i consulted very experienced people who suggested various primers and paints but still to no avail. I have even tried the mixed water with glue. That being said I have had no experience with epoxies, this needs to be researched! All help appreciated

 

[MrBoat]

I have had the issue of being able to notice the join points in my mdf cabinetry on my speakers. That being said I have only done three projects with mdf. I can also notice the join on my subs that I have built with ply and hardwood, though it is hard to tell. I generally stick to veneer projects now, perhaps with an mdf front baffle.

For my projects i consulted very experienced people who suggested various primers and paints but still to no avail. I have even tried the mixed water with glue. That being said I have had no experience with epoxies, this needs to be researched! All help appreciated

On the top of an MDF cabinet with rabbet or butt joints, and I was going for a permanent slick, automotive finish, I would fiberglass it with a 4 oz. glass veil cloth set in epoxy or use miter joints. Another way would be to create around a 3/32"D x 2"W trough along the joint (this works to cover the edge grains in plywood also) and fiberglass tape it beyond flush with the top and then just seal the entire cabinet to a slight build and fair it flat. Even on the cabinets I use backed veneer on I use epoxy putty that I make myself instead of bondo.

You can tell the difference in epoxy sealed MDF because it sands more evenly between the edges and faces for being equally as hardened.

Epoxy imparts a feel of quality with MDF. Also, if you want screws to hold well in MDF, predrill the holes and then fill them with thinned epoxy and let it set before installing the screws. The fibrous nature of MDF, combined with the resin is about half way as effective as screwing into fiberglass and the bugle heads on screws will not dig much deeper than the intended countersink depth.

Here is a front baffle I coated with epoxy before installing it. There was no uneven flash off with even rattle can paint since it is sealed and wets out evenly.

Usually there is a slight difference between the veneer and the front baffle, especially with precut flat packs. I masking tape off the sealed veneer with fine line tape right to it's edge, and use another piece of tape to create a pin stripe, so to speak on the baffle. I use a somewhat runny epoxy putty to correct this transition.

The end result is a factory looking part that is neat as a pin. With the contrast between the painted part and the veneer it ends up looking like two very well fit pieces with a seam that looks machine fit tight instead of just blended together as one.

 

[ARES24]

That does look pretty. I have done a quick search and these people aren't far. I assume there are products on the page that will work. I think I might take a tour and pester the people there, see if I can find someone that actually has experience.

 

[MrBoat]

That does look pretty. I have done a quick search and these people aren't far. I assume there are products on the page that will work. I think I might take a tour and pester the people there, see if I can find someone that actually has experience.

Some notes about epoxy. While many claim West to be the best, which it is good, the chemicals it takes to make it is only supplied by a few (Dow, Owens-Corning etc.) manufacturers so, basically , everyone gets the ingredients from the same places. and just formulates them slightly different.

Layup resin, for example, has to have enough thinner in it to effectively wet out fiberglass cloth no matter who makes it. I've been using the same generic brand for almost 15 years in marine applications without issue, at about half the price of West's. In any event, epoxy is going to be overkill for an interior environment so choose who has the best service.

I use thin, layup resin, thinned further with denatured alcohol for sealing. it has about a 6 (slow hardener, but medium would suffice))hour set time with a 24 hr cure. I make enough so that it becomes thicker as the alcohol evaporates. First coat will be pretty much water thin, and as I go over it with multiple coats, it will slightly thicker each coat, where is how I get the full build in a single bout.

There is another company that makes a penetrating epoxy called Rot Doctor or CPES which has a proprietary solvent that stinks to high heaven and is quite expensive. Denatured Alcohol works quite well for this instead and renders the result essentially food safe once cured.

 

[MrBoat]

That does look pretty. I have done a quick search and these people aren't far. I assume there are products on the page that will work. I think I might take a tour and pester the people there, see if I can find someone that actually has experience.

That site you listed has a pretty extensive product line. They should be quite knowledgeable with just about everything epoxy.

 

[highfigh]

Some notes about epoxy. While many claim West to be the best, which it is good, the chemicals it takes to make it is only supplied by a few (Dow, Owens-Corning etc.) manufacturers so, basically , everyone gets the ingredients from the same places. and just formulates them slightly different.

Layup resin, for example, has to have enough thinner in it to effectively wet out fiberglass cloth no matter who makes it. I've been using the same generic brand for almost 15 years in marine applications without issue, at about half the price of West's. In any event, epoxy is going to be overkill for an interior environment so choose who has the best service.

I use thin, layup resin, thinned further with denatured alcohol for sealing. it has about a 6 (slow hardener, but medium would suffice))hour set time with a 24 hr cure. I make enough so that it becomes thicker as the alcohol evaporates. First coat will be pretty much water thin, and as I go over it with multiple coats, it will slightly thicker each coat, where is how I get the full build in a single bout.

There is another company that makes a penetrating epoxy called Rot Doctor or CPES which has a proprietary solvent that stinks to high heaven and is quite expensive. Denatured Alcohol works quite well for this instead and renders the result essentially food safe once cured.

The stuff that stinks (smells different from most epoxy or polyester resins) may have Urea as a main ingredient and that does smell bad, but it works well.

 

[MrBoat]

The stuff that stinks (smells different from most epoxy or polyester resins) may have Urea as a main ingredient and that does smell bad, but it works well.

Smith's CPES stinks because of the volatile solvents in it, one of which is alcohol. I think they use a blend that displaces moisture and other contaminates which is why it works on rotted wood as well as it does. Not something you want to use without plenty of ventilation.

Smith's also claims you can't just thin regular epoxy as a penetrating sealer but that is not true outside of perhaps an ideal penetrant for rotten wood. Depends on the result needed and the material being treated.

 

[MrBoat]

Applying the final face veneers on the front reveals of the cabinets. This just leaves the front baffles and rear panels left to do. I found some water based stain that should closely resemble birch edge grain color (edge grain goes darker under clear coats) for the recessed woofer cutout. I'll paint the cutout satin white, and then stain over that to give it a look of solid wood. I may use some brown sharpie or something to add some grain continuance where the burls get cut off through the woofer cutout before I clear coat.

It's good to get to this point. I have been having to apply it between thunderstorms and grandkids, which only leaves late night to work on these things undisturbed. My glue lines are all but invisible on the corners. It takes about an hour for the epoxy to set, and 2-3 hours to cure hard. You can see again where the epoxy has seeped through the burl figure flush with the surface. You cannot detect any holes were ever there. I will apply about a 7-10 mil coating of epoxy and block sand that flat. Even at that thickness, once sanded, it appears as if nothing is on the wood. This should add a lot of depth to the clear coat and a great deal of chatoyance to the rays of the burl.

This shows a different view of the epoxy coming thru.

This shows the left side un-sanded, and the top of the cabinet to the right that has just had a once over sanding to degloss the epoxy

 

[panteragstk]

That is a nice veneer.

I have some old dry walnut veneer that I plan to use on a speaker project when time permits (damn kids).

I'll be asking you plenty when the time comes. Very nice work as usual.