$500 Challenge

[Danny Richie]

This is a controversial topic, but it has been my experience, as well as that of many other more experienced DIY speaker builders, that substituting high-priced inductors, capacitors, or resistors has no audible effect in a properly designed crossover. It might be possible to design a different and better crossover, but to substitute crossover parts with higher priced parts of the same electronic value does little if anything.

This is actually not true at all. There is a significant difference in performance due to crossover quality, especially with capacitors.

Just ask some of those X-LS customers that have upgraded. Some own a pair that have been upgraded and a pair that has not been upgraded. The difference is not subtile.

 

[Ryan8886]

Take a look at Athena. Their Audition Series AS-F2 received excellent reviews and price out at about $500 a pair. They also fit the "big black tower"/WAF requirement. Lucky you! My girlfriend HATES my Athenas! LOL! The designation was recently changed to AS-F2.2 (they have a slightly lighter cabinet than the originals, however no changes in SQ have been noted, just reduced shipping costs!). I've had mine for a couple months in a 3000 cubic foot room and they fill it quite nicely for both HT and 2-channel listening. Athena is mostly ID (at least the Audition Series), so I had no opportunity to audition them, but no regrets at all!

 

[jaxvon]

This is actually not true at all. There is a significant difference in performance due to crossover quality, especially with capacitors.

Just ask some of those X-LS customers that have upgraded. Some own a pair that have been upgraded and a pair that has not been upgraded. The difference is not subtile.

Really? I'd like to see some measurements indicating that. Something that is "not subtile"[sic] would easily show up on measurements. Unless your special crossover components have a much tighter tolerance that would result in a better FR or some other parameter that would make an audible improvement, they're just money down the drain.

 

[abefroeman]

Just following up

How about a pair of Mordaunt Short Avant 908's? I picked up a new pair last week for $550:
http://www.tsto.com/cgi-bin/TSTO.storefront/45944d9b005bd05c2740ac1003410629/Catalog/1089

Not sure how much shipping would be since i'm local to the store. They also have the 914's for $370.

I just bought the 914's from this site. They should be shipped soon.
These will also make good rears if I ever upgrade to the 908's.

I still need to get a receiver and center channel though. In due time.

 

[Tex-amp]

Warning - abefroeman!

This is a controversial topic, but it has been my experience, as well as that of many other more experienced DIY speaker builders, that substituting high-priced inductors, capacitors, or resistors has no audible effect in a properly designed crossover. It might be possible to design a different and better crossover, but to substitute crossover parts with higher priced parts of the same electronic value does little if anything.

I would not pay $126 for "upgraded" crossovers that only use parts with the same electronic values but of higher price unless it is clearly demonstrated that they contribute to improved sound from the speakers.

If you are interested, I would be glad to discuss what my preferences are in crossover parts, but that gets away from your original question here.

I certainly don't see the point in a $200 x-over upgrade for speakers with $10 worth of drivers. The driver and tweeter have a much bigger impact on sound than the x-over.

 

[j_garcia]

Warning - abefroeman!

This is a controversial topic, but it has been my experience, as well as that of many other more experienced DIY speaker builders, that substituting high-priced inductors, capacitors, or resistors has no audible effect in a properly designed crossover. It might be possible to design a different and better crossover, but to substitute crossover parts with higher priced parts of the same electronic value does little if anything.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion on the matter, however I own GR Research speakers (designed by Danny Richie) and I have the upgraded crossovers. My front 3 have the upgrade and my surround pair do not. There is definitely a difference between them. It is subtle, but it is not hard to notice. I used to own A/V-1s with the upgrade and a friend has a full set that do not, and again, the difference between them is apparent.

I certainly don't see the point in a $200 x-over upgrade for speakers with $10 worth of drivers. The driver and tweeter have a much bigger impact on sound than the x-over.

It is pretty much impossible to know the difference until you actually hear it. The drivers in my speakers cost about $80 total per speaker. I certainly don't think the drivers in the Ascends cost much more than the drivers in the A/V-2s or even the X-LS for that matter.

I did an audition, back to back with the same gear, with the Ascend 340SEs and my surround pair, and the difference was quite apparent between them. The 340s are fine speakers, but I can say the A/V-2s are a step up from them without reservation.

 

[WmAx]

It is pretty much impossible to know the difference until you actually hear it. The drivers in my speakers cost about $80 total per speaker. I certainly don't think the drivers in the Ascends cost much more than the drivers in the A/V-2s or even the X-LS for that matter.

Your non-controlled (with several unaddressed variables) observation is not reliable evidence.

For those that have taken at least some measures of control, no audible difference has been found, even comparing electrolytic(considered poor sound by traditional audiophile groups) to reputed film capacitors in the many level matched blind trials performed a couple of years back at two of the big speaker DIY conventions. Though, I find even these (controlled) comparisons to be pointless, as their was no credible technical reason to suspect an audible difference between a standard low cost Mylar capacitor or a high price boutique capacitor in the first place. Only speculation(s), equal in credibility to that of people claiming audible differences in wire/cable of comparable LCR parameters.

-Chris

 

[j_garcia]

Yes, I know, we've had this discussion a number of times and it will always lead to the same stalemate. I wouldn't say it if I didn't hear it first hand, so that is my take on it.

 

[WmAx]

Yes, I know, we've had this discussion a number of times and it will always lead to the same stalemate. I wouldn't say it if I didn't hear it first hand.

Yes, we have had this discussion before.

Here is my question to you: Do you believe that you are not subject to the [many] variables at play here?

-Chris

 

[Tex-amp]

I certainly don't think the drivers in the Ascends cost much more than the drivers in the A/V-2s or even the X-LS for that matter.

I don't know anything about the AV-2s but the Peerless India drivers and tweeters together in the x-ls cost av123 about $10 for a pair of speakers. Go price some SEAS chambered tweeters and a 6.5" shielded Aerogel woofer at madisound and estimate the Ascend tweeter and driver cost from there.

 

[Swerd]

Yes, we have had this discussion before. And as I said before - this is a controversial topic - one that is not worth arguing anymore.

I participated in one of those matched blind trials performed a couple of years back at the DCDIY speaker building convention. The unmistakably clear result was that no one among some 40 speaker builders could hear any difference among capacitors of different construction used in crossovers.

Floyd E. Toole, the acknowledged expert at testing for listener preferences in audio products said it this way:

"Knowledge of the products that are being evaluated is generally understood to be a powerful source of psychological bias. In scientific tests of many kinds, even in wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to ensure the anonymity of the devices or substances being subjectively evaluated. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and otherwise serious people persist in the belief that they can ignore such factors as price, size, brand, etc. In some of the “great debate” issues, like amplifiers, wires, and the like, there are assertions that disguising the product identity prevents listeners from hearing differences that are in the range of extremely small to inaudible. That debate shows no signs of slowing down."​

Let's debate something else, like which brand of paint dries faster.

 

[gene]

Warning - abefroeman!

This is a controversial topic, but it has been my experience, as well as that of many other more experienced DIY speaker builders, that substituting high-priced inductors, capacitors, or resistors has no audible effect in a properly designed crossover. It might be possible to design a different and better crossover, but to substitute crossover parts with higher priced parts of the same electronic value does little if anything.

I would not pay $126 for "upgraded" crossovers that only use parts with the same electronic values but of higher price unless it is clearly demonstrated that they contribute to improved sound from the speakers.

If you are interested, I would be glad to discuss what my preferences are in crossover parts, but that gets away from your original question here.

There is merit to using higher quality crossover parts beyond tighter tolerances. For one you typically don't want to use electrolytic caps in series with tweeters because of their nonlinearities at higher frequencies and their relatively higher ESR.

Air core inductors compared to iron core don't saturate as easily.

Much of this also depends on the total design of the product and whether or not it makes sense to use higher end components. I have no doubt that the x-ls can sound better with higher end crossover parts which I may eventually review/compare one of these days.

Measurably it is easy to show the benefit of better components.

Audibility is another story that requires:

• good source material

• good room acoustics

• good ears

• good electronics

• proper speaker setup

 

[gene]

I don't know anything about the AV-2s but the Peerless India drivers and tweeters together in the x-ls cost av123 about $10 for a pair of speakers. Go price some SEAS chambered tweeters and a 6.5" shielded Aerogel woofer at madisound and estimate the Ascend tweeter and driver cost from there.

Not sure where you can buy the level of drivers found in x-ls at the price you are quoting but I find it hard to believe. The Ascend tweeter I have seen in the past use un-heatsinked neodynium motor structurers whereas the tweeters found in the x-ls have a conventional magnet. I am not saying the Ascends are bad, but the tweeter is definately not as costly. Regardless of cost, who cares as long as the product sounds good. Why use components costing 2-3x more if the product doesn't require it to reach the level of performance at its price class?

 

[billnchristy]

Funny that you say they are $10 in components when this sites review clearly states:

The DIY versions of these drivers total out at just under $110.00, more than half the retail of this product!

nor do I believe $10 in components would give you this freq. response.

Maybe that should be the challenge...build a better pair for $200.

 

[jaxvon]

Funny that you say they are $10 in components when this sites review clearly states:



nor do I believe $10 in components would give you this freq. response.

Maybe that should be the challenge...build a better pair for $200.

That's retail. You will notice that he claimed that $10 is the cost for AV123, NOT the average consumer.

I don't know anything about the AV-2s but the Peerless India drivers and tweeters together in the x-ls cost av123 about $10 for a pair of speakers.

 

[billnchristy]

Oh my god!

You mean they make a PROFIT on SELLING speakers?

 

[mlschifter]

That's retail. You will notice that he claimed that $10 is the cost for AV123, NOT the average consumer.

You are of course correct here...

That said - the person that made this post knows near to nothing about the subject of COGS (cost of goods sold) with respect to the products being offered by my company...

That particular post has been volleyed around quite a bit in the last few days amongst people in the industry. Many of our friends - and even a few of our "not so friends" have called to chuckle with me... We put our hearts into these products - and we genuinely care. We know we are not the Last Word - but we also know that this little business represents some superb efforts at designing and manufacturing products that represent honest vaule. Even our most die hard enemies know that much...

No one - least of all myself, is saying that our parts cost as much as the compared loudspeaker (mentioned) - in fact - lets put it to rest right now. The Ascend CBM170 SE uses superb parts that DO cost more than our components (drivers) used in the x-ls/x-cs - it should - it sells for 60%+ more than our product. As well... let me also state that to even begin to believe that we have a 5 dollars cost per speaker in drivers borders on the absurd - which strikes me as almost funny coming from the poster. He's smart person - that truly should know a LOT better...

Wishing you all --- all the very best...

mls

 

[silversurfer]

The Ascend tweeter I have seen in the past use un-heatsinked neodynium motor structurers whereas the tweeters found in the x-ls have a conventional magnet. I am not saying the Ascends are bad, but the tweeter is definately not as costly.

Gene, are you talking about the Seas tweeter that Ascend currently uses, or the tweeter that was used in the older models? My research says they current Ascend tweeter is more costly than the one in the X-LS.

The Ascend CBM170 SE uses superb parts that DO cost more than our components (drivers) used in the x-ls/x-cs

Nevermind, I just saw Mr. Schifter's statement.

I have recently heard these two products, both outstanding in their own rights. It really boils down to what you want and what you want to spend.

As for crossover modifications and boutique parts, I read a post on AVS about crossover designers on the web, such as Dennis Murphy, Rick Craig, and Danny Richie, having endless debates. I did some reading, and the guy was right...endless debates. But the kicker is Dennis Murphy always points out that there has never been a blind test put forth by anyone claiming mods such as these make a difference. That seems to be the most telling piece of information.