5 Reasons Dolby Atmos May Be DOA

[GranteedEV]

One Mix to rule them all, One mix to find them from above
One Mix to bring them all and in the darkness bind them to their seat

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Really? I thought the 'one mix' thing was one of the reasons?

I also thought the "One Mix" was the salient point of ATMOS.

Surely the salient point can't be to just improve less than 10% of the soundtrack (the surrounds).

We know that ATMOS does NOT improve the remaining 90% of the soundtrack (Front Left, Front Right, Center, Subwoofer).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Actually I thought just occurred to me. I bet for BD w/ ATMOS, producers will try to increase surround sound contents. Thus, even if you just have 5 speakers, your surround speakers will get a lot more action

 

[RichB]

Really? I thought the 'one mix' thing was one of the reasons?

It's a supposition but there are limitations in maximum bit-rate for BD's which constrain the audio and video. This places some limits on the number of objects. Why should a theatrical mix be bound by these limits?

- Rich

 

[cpp]

Actually I thought just occurred to me. I bet for BD w/ ATMOS, producers will try to increase surround sound contents. Thus, even if you just have 5 speakers, your surround speakers will get a lot more action

I thought the ATMOS "movie mixed and placed on BR is it, the AVR which is ATMOS capable has the smarts to handle what sound goes to which speaker configuration. Of course not having the required numbers of speakers in some home family room setup is not going to give the user the experience they saw at the ATMOS theater.

 

[panteragstk]

I first bought a modern DVD player and AVR in 2000. The new 5 channel system replaced a 2 channel stereo system to which I had previously added a TV and VCR. I had heard DVDs and a 5 channel sound system at a friend’s house and was impressed with the improved sound and picture from the digital sound track from a DVD, even though the sound system used poor quality speakers. The AVR I got could decode Dolby Digital and DTS, and could synthesize Dolby surround sound from any 2 channel source. My old TV set could not accept video from the DVD player, forcing me to buy a new, enormously heavy 32” CRT set. I was unhappy because I was aware of the digital TV developments that were soon to come but were not yet a reality.

New AV receivers became available which could synthesize an improved Dolby Surround II or DTS Neo from 2 channel sources. Even though it might improve sound from TV and VCRs, I passed on that.

DVD players become available with improved resolution, progressive vs. interlaced scanning. I passed on that because my analog CRT TV was unable to show the difference.

7 channel surround sound became available. I passed on that, keeping my 5.

SACD and DVD-A become available. I passed on that. It wasn’t enough of an improvement over red book CD music.

I bought a more powerful 2 channel audio amplifier to supplement the power of my AVR. My front left and right speakers now had 200 watts instead of 70. It made a noticeable improvement in sound.

Digital and High Definition TV gradually become a reality. At first, it was very expensive. I waited until 2007 to buy what was a big improvement in picture quality. Within a year, I picked up a cheap progressive scan DVD player.

I eagerly bought new front speakers, Salks.

Now Blue Ray disc players, vs. the now defunct Toshiba high definition system became the format war for video discs. I passed on that until it became clear that one format would prevail, and the prices of the players came down.

3D TV became available. I passed on that.

Because the BR players made use of new audio formats and HDMI digital connections, new receivers became available that could decode these audio formats. Because many were in a rush to buy these, I took advantage of the flood of good quality used AV receivers that became available, and replaced my 2000 vintage Denon AVR. The newer more powerful receiver could synthesize Dolby Surround II and DTS Neo (an unimportant feature), and had potent bass management features including user modifiable digital notch filters to tame room bass modes, which did make a difference. As a result, I’ve ignored the trends toward various automated room correction software built into AVRs.

The last improvement I’ve bought was a Blue Ray player. It was one the last players on the market that had 5 or 7 channel analog RCA jacks that allowed me to use it on a non-HDMI receiver. It wasn't much of an improvement.

And now here comes Dolby Atmos. I think I’ll pass on that too.

I don’t know if I’m a typical home theater owner or not, but I think my pattern is more common than not.

This is almost exactly the same path I've taken, so no you are not alone.

I'm all for true upgrades to existing formats, but I've never been an early adopter and never will. Something better always comes out.

My first AVR was when DTS was first showing up in AVR's and I kept it for many many years. To me there was no real upgrade until the HD formats came out. Sure, there was Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES, but that (to me) was a minimal upgrade and not really worth it. I still say the back channels aren't all that important.

I was intrigued with DSX and DTS: NEO X came out, but they remind me of all the other processing that gets more channels out of an existing sound track. They are kinda cool, but I tend to prefer the unprocessed track. I know I'll be the same with Atmos and DTS UHD. I'll get a receiver that supports both. Will I get ceiling speakers? When they make some that are better quality or I can mount a current speaker on the ceiling and the formats have matured, sure, I might. I'd have to hear a convincing demo before making the leap, or install a temporary system.

To me this is just another evolution of audio just like Dolby Digital was compared to Pro Logic.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there really haven't been all that many large leaps in audio formats when it comes to movies.

Dolby Pro Logic (matrix)
Dolby Digital (discrete) New and very relevant format
DTS (discrete) Evolution beyond Dolby Digital
Dolby Digital EX (matrix) Gimmick to sell more speakers IMHO
DTS-ES (matrix or discrete) Evolution beyond Dolby Digital EX
DTS 96/24 (discrete) Evolution of DTS, higher resolution
Dolby Digital Plus (discrete) Tiny evolution beyond Dolby Digital EX
DTS-HD High Resolution Audio (discrete) Dolby Digital Plus direct competitor
Dolby TrueHD (discrete) Evolution to lossless format
DTS-HD Master Audio (discrete) Direct competitor to Dolby TrueHD
Dolby Atmos (discrete, object based) Evolution to more channels, more enveloping sound (we'll see)
DTS UHD (discrete, object based) Again, Direct competitor to Dolby Atmos

So, if I had bought a new receiver every time one of these "new" formats came out I'd have owned 12 instead of 3 (I only owned 3 because one died and needed a replacement). That doesn't include the DSX, Neo:6,X, THX, PL Z, and all the other DSP's that have come about.

One question I don't remember seeing asked was whether or not the Atmos speaker configuration will be compatible with DTS UHD like the current 5.1 and 7.1 configurations are? It'd be a big mistake for those overhead speakers to be compatible with one and not the other. Talk about cornering yourself.

I will do what I normally do in these situations. Happily sit back and see what happens.

 

[RichB]

Really? I thought the 'one mix' thing was one of the reasons?

I thought the ATMOS "movie mixed and placed on BR is it, the AVR which is ATMOS capable has the smarts to handle what sound goes to which speaker configuration. Of course not having the required numbers of speakers in some home family room setup is not going to give the user the experience they saw at the ATMOS theater.

Most BD's have DTS-MA sound tracks. I am not sure why, it could be cost saving, tools, or reduced bandwidth since DTS-MA has a core DTS track that is required by the standard.
True-HD requires a hidden fallback DD track. I am sure Dolby wants this market back, they owned DVD's.

The Cinema track does not have to be concerned with the space required by the compressed image. Atmos cinema and Atmos home have different numbers of support objects.
Both Atmos and DTS-HD will support channels so a full object based soundtrack is going to need a hybrid track for home delivery. This may not be difficult, but the idea that the OO soundtrack was just stuffed on a BD is marketing talking.

Here a Dolby Atmos blog:

Dolby Atmos for home theaters: FAQ - Dolby - Lab Notes

How is Dolby Atmos different than typical channel-based home theater systems?

Dolby Atmos is the first home theater system that is based not on channels, but on audio objects. What is an audio object? Any sound heard in a movie scene—a child yelling, a helicopter taking off, a car horn blaring—is an audio object. Filmmakers using Dolby Atmos can decide exactly where those sounds should originate and precisely where they move as the scene develops.
Thinking about sound in this way eliminates many of the limitations of channel-based audio. Ina channel-based system, filmmakers have to think about the speaker setup: Should this sound come from the left rear surrounds or the left side surrounds? With Dolby Atmos, filmmakers just have to think about the story: Where is that yelling child going to run? The Dolby Atmos system, whether in the cinema or a home theater, has the intelligence to determine what speakers to use to precisely recreate the child’s movement in the way the filmmakers intend.
Dolby Atmos is also far more flexible and adaptable than channel-based home theater. In a channel-based system with channel-based content, the number of speakers is fixed—a 7.1 system always consists of seven speakers and one subwoofer. With Dolby Atmos, in contrast, you have amazing flexibility: you can get the full experience with just seven speakers or get an even richer, more detailed sound by adding more speakers. As you add speakers, a Dolby Atmos enabled receiver will automatically determine how to use them to create fantastic, immersive audio.

We know that Atmos uses a 5.1/7.1 "beds" with some object which involve height thingies (I used to call them channels).
Channels have been replaced within 7.1/5.1 beds that are no longer channels.

On a non-Atmos system, the sound is played in the bed. On an Atmos system, it is extracted from the bed and mapped onto the speakers/height channels. When I asked FilmMixer about new Atmos titles would have additional objects (like a dialog channel) that could be processed when newer more powerful Atmos channels are available, he replied:

Bandwidth limitations are going to be a real issue for fully object oriented... DTS isn't going to magically overcome the same limitations that Dolby faces regarding delivery, and their solution also supports channels.... even the talk about creating a dialog only object for later processing eats up a good deal of bandwidth.

Of course, BD authoring has limits in maximum bitrate and storage space that cannot be ignored.
Therefore, it seems improbably that the BD author just plops the OO soundtrack onto the disk.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

One question I don't remember seeing asked was whether or not the Atmos speaker configuration will be compatible with DTS UHD like the current 5.1 and 7.1 configurations are? It'd be a big mistake for those overhead speakers to be compatible with one and not the other. Talk about cornering yourself.

I will do what I normally do in these situations. Happily sit back and see what happens.

Good plan

There has been some chatter about the channel mapping. Following these threads is a slog.
You can see FilmMixers experience with his Atmos AVR:

The "Official" 2014 Denon Atmos+XT32 Model Thread (X4100/X5200/X7200) - Page 12 - AVS Forum

The one caveat is that some of these findings may be unique to how the Denon X5200 works.

1. You can't use the Top speakers with DSX.
2. Dolby Surround does not use the wides.
3. There was definite processing activated when you changed the type of speakers from "Top"(Direct Firing) to "Dolby Enabled."

This may be Denon specific. There is also talk about up-firing Atmos speakers available for ATMOS processing only.
This would be new, speakers purchased by a user, with use restrictions imposed by the licensee (Dolby).

Edit:

Here is a nice diagram about ATMOS speaker locations:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/general-av-discussions/91637-5-reasons-dolby-atmos-may-doa-15.html#post1048697

My 5.1 system uses the Studios in a surround back position out of necessity. It sounds good though

- Rich

 

[THXguru]

4) Aimable Speakers
Getting people to put speakers in their ceiling is a risky bet (to say the least) so the idea of a speaker to bounce sound of the ceiling is a good idea. However, it is clear to anyone with half a brain that top mounted speakers that are at a fixed angle are a terrible idea. Even with ideal placements, there are too many factors that can make them ineffective. Shorter than average ceilings, off-center seating, ceiling fans and other obstructions, variations in ceiling material, and more can all make it so that a fixed angle speaker isn't going to bounce the sound to the right location.

If we put aside what we know about the effectiveness of reflected sound and assume that they'll sound exactly like in-ceiling speakers, the problem is that there isn't a "standard" room. Getting the sound to bounce off the right part of the ceiling is critical. You're just not going to be able to do that with a fixed-angle top speaker for most installations.

The solution should be obvious: Allow the top speaker to be aimed. I envision a top speaker that is "floating" on top of a layer of foam (decoupling the top speaker from the bottom - an additional benefit) with some sort of adjustable front baffle. A fantastic design addition would be a laser pointer that fires from the front baffle to show you exactly where it hits on the ceiling.

First of all, thanks for this great site and following all things Atmos so closely! Now for the steerable speakers: Even though you question the "effectiveness of reflected sound", this proposal relies on sound being focused almost like that laser pointer ("bounce off the right part / to the right location").

Aside from theoretical acoustics, I have 2 observations to offer:
1) look at 360° polar diagrams of speaker radiation. There is a lot of sound going sideways (towards the listener in the case of up-firing drivers), so the up-fired sound is not very much louder than that going elsewhere, even with rather directive drivers. Next, the up-fired sound has to travel a longer way, getting wider in the process since it is more or less following an angle, and suffer partial absorption and diffusion at the ceiling. What finally arrives at your ears is probably coming from all directions, one of the directions being your ceiling. If you're unlucky, you get several strong reflections with very similar lengths of path, resulting in audible coloration / comb filtering.
2) look at the Yamaha sound projectors. They use a crazy number of small drivers arranged over 2 to 4 ft length, in order to steer medium-to-high frequencies horizontally. You just can't expect the same thing from a single speaker driver (even with a tweeter, which actually makes things worse because at e.g. 5kHz it is less directive than a larger driver).

So, if you steer an upfiring speaker back and forth and hear a difference, then this will also be due to the changes in directly radiated sound (you are essentially listening more or less on/off axis). In most cases, the sound going up creates more of a diffuse perception, like THX dipole speakers do. Steering the speaker will still be a nice tool for tuning the sound, but it is nothing like pointing a laserpointer up and get the sound beamed right into your ear. And even if it did that, the perceived position would probably not be above your screen but almost above your head (angle of incidence = angle of reflection). Which points to another issue with up-firing speakers: Which speaker position does the Atmos renderer assume for this speaker type, when the perceived direction of the sound is strongly variable and rather diffuse? And which delay time will be used for these channels, is the direct speaker distance as well as the ceiling height taken into account? Automatic calibration might help, especially if it is able to detect the sound incidence angle, however it might still be tricky to determine direction, level and delay time in case the upfiring speakers create rather diffuse sound.

As a disclaimer, I have yet to hear the Atmos-enabled speakers with dedicated signal processing (maybe some Blauert band manipulation?). But I have studied acoustics and done experiments myself, and would find it a miracle if the result comes close to discrete ceiling speakers under real-world conditions (not just in ideal demo rooms playing showcase-recordings). So I'm considering ceiling speakers for my own living room. Although I can approximate the 5.1.4 configuration there, I'm still quite disappointed that speaker positioning is not free with Atmos (not the slightest advantage over Auro3D and others from the consumer point of view...!).

 

[gene]

Dolby Atmos Elevation Speaker Explained

Guys;

My article about the Dolby Atmos Elevation speakers is live on the homepage of Audioholics.com. Here is the official forum thread for you to discuss and cast your vote.

Thanks.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/loudspeakers/91854-dolby-atmos-elevation-speakers-explained.html

 

[witchdoctor]

I have been using "width" speakers for about 10 years using my Sunfire TG 3 which labeled them side axis channels. I use Paradigm Active Reference speakers (all internally amplified) in a 9.1 setup. The width (or side axis channels) makes it much harder to localize any of the speakers during a movie helping to make the speakers disappear. If I had never heard a 9.1 system with width (side axis) I would never have missed it. Having lived with it for so long I would miss it immediately if I changed my setup.
How can anyone critique Atmos, Auro 3D, DTS X or whatever without having lived with it in their home in order to personally experience it? I think it's fine to say it is a PIA to set up but you only need to do it once and then you are set.

 

[DD66000]

I take the view that ATMOS is as useful as H/W channels. Nada.
Of the small % of HT that use H/W, most that I've seen do not have their LCRs setup right.
I contend that when properly placed LCRs are in the mix H/W channels are not needed, and provide little, if anything.
I certainly do not need them, and don't need ATMO either.
If one provides plenty of space for the LCRs, you have all the soundstage you need.
I ran a sound test on my L/R mains and one part of it raised the sound from ear level to about 2 meters above, all b/c of proper placement. And another moved the sound starting at the baffles to about two ft behind.

Gimmicks rarely work better than proper placement of quality LCRs.

 

[witchdoctor]

I take the view that ATMOS is as useful as H/W channels. Nada.
Of the small % of HT that use H/W, most that I've seen do not have their LCRs setup right.
I contend that when properly placed LCRs are in the mix H/W channels are not needed, and provide little, if anything.
I certainly do not need them, and don't need ATMO either.
If one provides plenty of space for the LCRs, you have all the soundstage you need.
I ran a sound test on my L/R mains and one part of it raised the sound from ear level to about 2 meters above, all b/c of proper placement. And another moved the sound starting at the baffles to about two ft behind.

Gimmicks rarely work better than proper placement of quality LCRs.

I can't speak for other setups. I set my L-C-R speakers up as instructed in the manual that came with my Sunfire Theater Grand 3 processor and it sounded great but you could localize it as coming from the front of the room. When I added the side axis channels the soundstage became so much more enveloping and it is nearly impossible to localize what speaker the sound is coming from, even the center channel. Now this is Bob Carver's version not DTS etc. The side axis channels upmix is different from the one used by DTS or Dolby width channels but in my room it works. You can get the manual if you want to learn more about it here: http://sunfire.com/downloads_archive.asp

 

[DD66000]

I can't speak for other setups. I set my L-C-R speakers up as instructed in the manual that came with my Sunfire Theater Grand 3 processor and it sounded great but you could localize it as coming from the front of the room. When I added the side axis channels the soundstage became so much more enveloping and it is nearly impossible to localize what speaker the sound is coming from, even the center channel. Now this is Bob Carver's version not DTS etc. The side axis channels upmix is different from the one used by DTS or Dolby width channels but in my room it works. You can get the manual if you want to learn more about it here: http://sunfire.com/downloads_archive.asp

I don't know what speakers you have or their locations, but imo, most suggested speaker locations need adjustments.
I care more about music (stereo, MC) than movies and as such, I do want a certain amount of localization. But a complete soundstage, not listening to music as coming from two speakers.
And that requires providing the L/R speakers with plenty of space.
4 ft or more out from the end wall and as much space to the sides as the room width will allow.

Of coarse, how good the soundstage is has a lot to do with the recording.
Some (maybe many) recordings are so bad, no setup will make them sound good.

 

[witchdoctor]

Well with music I listen in 2 channel stereo, I like to hear the performers in front of me like at a concert. With a movie I like the envelopment of a non localized soundstage. However this is subjective and tastes differ. I can turn off the side axis channels during a movie if I prefer or listen in one of the surround music modes if I wanted. As for speakers I have 3 identical Paradigm Active 40 speakers in front (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/paradigm_active40.htm) sitting on Mapleshade Bedrock stands (http://shop.mapleshadestore.com/Maple-Bedrock-2-natural-maple/productinfo/BED2-CL/)

I will be likely upgrading my processor this year (Marantz 8802?) and with a different processor and setup who knows. I am adding height speakers in the front and back. I have no idea if I'll like Atmos, Auro 3D, or DTS X but I figure I want to check it out. Even if I like my old 9.1 setup better the Marantz still brings better video processing and Audysey that my current processor lacks.

 

[DD66000]

With my setup I get both. Very good soundstage for stereo and very good envelopment for DAV-A/SACD and movies.

Paradigm makes some very good speakers...I've often stated that Canadian brands have a sonic signature similar to Harman brands...that would be the influence of Floyd Toole and Sean Olive at NRCC and later at Harman.

But that said, I've seen setups that defied all logic. In a HT shop, they had Paradigm towers in the front corners (about 18~24" max of space) between the sides of the screen (105"; 235:1) and side walls. The result was a very narrow soundstage.
By contrast, my JBLs on an 8ft spread (1 ft to the sides of a 65"), and 58" to the side walls produced a much wider soundstage.

So even the so called HT pros most of the time still get it wrong. Which many times is a result of video first and audio second mentality.

 

[andyblackcat]

I don't know what speakers you have or their locations, but imo, most suggested speaker locations need adjustments.
I care more about music (stereo, MC) than movies and as such, I do want a certain amount of localization. But a complete soundstage, not listening to music as coming from two speakers.
And that requires providing the L/R speakers with plenty of space.
4 ft or more out from the end wall and as much space to the sides as the room width will allow.

Of coarse, how good the soundstage is has a lot to do with the recording.
Some (maybe many) recordings are so bad, no setup will make them sound good.

View attachment 15140

I looked at the link to manual for a while last night. I was getting some ideas. So you set your room up with x3 matched surround each side wall and x2 on back wall total x8 that is how many I have in my THX cinema x8 JBL 8330 around the room at same equal height. The room is proper THX Dolby pro reference surrounded.

Ideally you spread the matched LCR or LR equal distance apart and keep them, in straight line in front of the room at same height level. When you start putting mismatched centre above and below the TV captain Kirk, dialog pan in STAR TREK V, or Luke Skywalker lightsaber in Return of the Jedi, won't match when forces Vader, out on the catwalk on the catwalk Vader is sexy on the catwalk, the lightsaber goes from stage left to stage right with half pan between the centre.

 

[DD66000]

Notice on that diagram, how the LCRs are out...they show 2 ft minimum, from rear/side walls. I prefer 3~5 ft. But either way, well out from the walls.

I also prefer to have my subs at the mid-points of the walls...currently one sub at the center of the soundstage and the other at the center point of the right side wall.

 

[andyblackcat]

Notice on that diagram, how the LCRs are out...they show 2 ft minimum, from rear/side walls. I prefer 3~5 ft. But either way, well out from the walls.

I also prefer to have my subs at the mid-points of the walls...currently one sub at the center of the soundstage and the other at the center point of the right side wall.

Yeah that maybe so the case or what ever.
Smaller multiplex I worked at have the stage channels LR not so far away from the side walls even thou the screen is wall to wall width.

I can tuck my matched 3 with LR inwards and listen to a few scenes.

Beverley Hills Cop (1984)
Dolby Stereo 5.1

Door opening panning stage left and stage right.

When monitoring channels on Sony SDDS DFP-D3000 with LR muted or centre muted for closer checking and listening.

There is a mild very low in level half pan of left stage on centre, but right stage door opening is isolated to stage right in the Dolby Digital discrete mix.

Left door has lower opening clicking sound and door on right has slightly higher door handle clicking opening.

In Dolby Stereo matrix the right door open half pan on centre is a bit higher due to the nature of the matrix. Left door on stage left is heard a little bit on centre channel.

Okay I took 10 mins for that now put STAR TREK THE MOTION PICTURE (1979) back on and get back to my 16:20 hours dinner.

 

[witchdoctor]

I looked at the link to manual for a while last night. I was getting some ideas. So you set your room up with x3 matched surround each side wall and x2 on back wall total x8 that is how many I have in my THX cinema x8 JBL 8330 around the room at same equal height. The room is proper THX Dolby pro reference surrounded.

Ideally you spread the matched LCR or LR equal distance apart and keep them, in straight line in front of the room at same height level. When you start putting mismatched centre above and below the TV captain Kirk, dialog pan in STAR TREK V, or Luke Skywalker lightsaber in Return of the Jedi, won't match when forces Vader, out on the catwalk on the catwalk Vader is sexy on the catwalk, the lightsaber goes from stage left to stage right with half pan between the centre.