4 10” subs vs 1 18” in sealed boxes?

[yepimonfire]

Planning on doing a diy Dayton ultimax build at some point. Sticking with sealed for two reasons, 1, tighter bass with less resonance, and 2, PE already has boxes to put the subs in, I don’t have the tools or experience to cut my own boxes, so I want to keep it simple.

The goal is high output, minimum 110dB at 3m from 30hz-80hz, and at least 100dB at 25hz. Planning on using a linkwitz transform to boost the response down to 25hz -3dB.

Would 4 10” subs stacked on each other better achieve this goal or would a single 18” do it better? Unfortunately I cannot afford multiple 15s or 18s, so it’s one of the two.


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[TheWarrior]

Planning on doing a diy Dayton ultimax build at some point. Sticking with sealed for two reasons, 1, tighter bass with less resonance, and 2, PE already has boxes to put the subs in, I don’t have the tools or experience to cut my own boxes, so I want to keep it simple.

The goal is high output, minimum 110dB at 3m from 30hz-80hz, and at least 100dB at 25hz. Planning on using a linkwitz transform to boost the response down to 25hz -3dB.

Would 4 10” subs stacked on each other better achieve this goal or would a single 18” do it better? Unfortunately I cannot afford multiple 15s or 18s, so it’s one of the two.


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When using multiple subs, high output is no longer that relevant, due to the need to turn them all down.

I agree completely on smaller drivers, particularly when using quad or more subs, they're easier to hide.

https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss265hf-8-10-reference-hf-subwoofer-8-ohm--295-442

This looks pretty capable. The HO models have a higher resonant frequency and I would not recommend them in a sealed box. The Ultimax is a 2 ohm driver that also has a higher fs.

A little higher in price, I would also recommend: https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-10-subwoofers/seas-l26roy-10-subwoofer-d1001-04-4-ohm/

I'm using the 4 Layer VC variant currently, but will be switching to this in the future.

Another suggestion would be to use a miniDSP 2x4 or similar to control the output, from a Crown Amp: http://www.crownaudio.com/en-US/product_families/xls-drivecore-2-series (I see you're looking at the iNuke amps... whatever floats your boat... there's plenty of options!)

That way you don't have to be quite so limited in placement, especially with smaller easier to hide subs that can just be connected with speaker cable rather than letting electrical outlets decide your placement.

 

[panteragstk]

If you can, place the 4 10" subs at different locations to help tame room modes. 4 corners or midpoint in each wall is ideal.

If you give your room dimensions and pick a driver I can help model it for you in REW. You can download it too and play around with sub placement. It helps to minimize the sub crawl.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Any reason you're going for 30hz and above? IMO the sealed for tighter bass thing is moot, and would go with the 18, ported. Even one hundred of those little 10's won't dig as deep. I think it's a waste to go through the trouble and be -10db at 25hz. Seems a bit lateral. Even if you don't have the tools, maybe you know someone who does? Obviously you're committed to a better experience, and learning so maybe a family member or friend could help. @tlsguy has blueprints for a killer 18"er using(I believe) the um18. That's the way I'd go.

 

[MrBoat]

How big is your room and what are you using for main speakers? Is this for HT? Whenever I hear "tighter bass" it makes me think it's predominately for modern music.

 

[lovinthehd]

Any reason you're going for 30hz and above? IMO the sealed for tighter bass thing is moot, and would go with the 18, ported. Even one hundred of those little 10's won't dig as deep. I think it's a waste to go through the trouble and be -10db at 25hz. Seems a bit lateral. Even if you don't have the tools, maybe you know someone who does? Obviously you're committed to a better experience, and learning so maybe a family member or friend could help. @tlsguy has blueprints for a killer 18"er using(I believe) the um18. That's the way I'd go.

Hmm, kinda remember TLSguy poohpoohing the UM18 at first, did he later design something for it? I'm thinking of this 18" thread for a TLSguy design using the Dayton RS460HO-4 driver ... http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/dayton-18-ho-ported-build-thread.93086/

 

[yepimonfire]

Any reason you're going for 30hz and above? IMO the sealed for tighter bass thing is moot, and would go with the 18, ported. Even one hundred of those little 10's won't dig as deep. I think it's a waste to go through the trouble and be -10db at 25hz. Seems a bit lateral. Even if you don't have the tools, maybe you know someone who does? Obviously you're committed to a better experience, and learning so maybe a family member or friend could help. @tlsguy has blueprints for a killer 18"er using(I believe) the um18. That's the way I'd go.

I’m not aiming for a -10dB response at 25hz, just -10dB in peak output, I figure this is realistic, since excursion is ridiculous at very low frequencies at high spl, and a majority of musical content rarely digs below 30-40hz, and LFE tracks contain most of their energy in the 30-50hz region. The goal is an f3 of 25hz, I just don’t expect the sub to do 110dB at 25hz.


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[shadyJ]

For music, you might as well go for four 10"s. While four 10"s might have more surface area, a single 18" can easily have more deep bass, however since you won't be using deep bass, no reason to go for that lower Fs. Only problem with four 10"s is that means four motors, and that can add up in weight if you try to stuff all that in one enclosure. I would make either four separate enclosures for each driver or two separate enclosures for two drivers each. Depending on the amp and wiring scheme, two enclosures might be easier, if say you have a two channel amp and can wire two drivers for each channel without overdoing the impedance.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For music, you might as well go for four 10"s. While four 10"s might have more surface area, a single 18" can easily have more deep bass, however since you won't be using deep bass, no reason to go for that lower Fs. Only problem with four 10"s is that means four motors, and that can add up in weight if you try to stuff all that in one enclosure. I would make either four separate enclosures for each driver or two separate enclosures for two drivers each. Depending on the amp and wiring scheme, two enclosures might be easier, if say you have a two channel amp and can wire two drivers for each channel without overdoing the impedance.

I think he meant 4 separate enclosures with 2 stacks of 2. I also think he does want extension since he mentioned lfe tracks, but I disagree with the assessment that they rarely go below 30. The reason I voted 18 was I thought the use case was music/HT.
Edit: I reread, and he said "music" rarely goes below 30 which is mostly true. I still disagree that lfe should be focused above 30. He's already got a 25hz sub. Seems a lateral move to go through the effort and expense and simply have more output without extension. Think, subwoofer candy!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I’m not aiming for a -10dB response at 25hz, just -10dB in peak output, I figure this is realistic, since excursion is ridiculous at very low frequencies at high spl, and a majority of musical content rarely digs below 30-40hz, and LFE tracks contain most of their energy in the 30-50hz region. The goal is an f3 of 25hz, I just don’t expect the sub to do 110dB at 25hz.


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Ok, so f3 of 25. I'm not following why. Isn't that your f3 now? And while a lot of lfe is concentrated in the 30-50 range, there is also a lot below that. It doesn't have to be action movies either. I just watched, again, Don't Breath. There are parts that have super extension. Didn't graph it but I know when I touched one of my sub drivers I could count each excursion.(guessing 16-18hz) IMO, this kind of material shouldn't be left on the table, and since you're doing the build, why not have it all?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Hmm, kinda remember TLSguy poohpoohing the UM18 at first, did he later design something for it? I'm thinking of this 18" thread for a TLSguy design using the Dayton RS460HO-4 driver ... http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/dayton-18-ho-ported-build-thread.93086/

You, sir, are very likely correct. I was going off of my memory,(which is admittedly flawed), and could remember if it was the HO or the UM. I think it's the way yep should go.

 

[everettT]

I’m not aiming for a -10dB response at 25hz, just -10dB in peak output, I figure this is realistic, since excursion is ridiculous at very low frequencies at high spl, and a majority of musical content rarely digs below 30-40hz, and LFE tracks contain most of their energy in the 30-50hz region. The goal is an f3 of 25hz, I just don’t expect the sub to do 110dB at 25hz.


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Have you modeled anything yet, including rew plots? Can you take a picture of the room to get an idea of the layout?

 

[yepimonfire]

Ok, so f3 of 25. I'm not following why. Isn't that your f3 now? And while a lot of lfe is concentrated in the 30-50 range, there is also a lot below that. It doesn't have to be action movies either. I just watched, again, Don't Breath. There are parts that have super extension. Didn't graph it but I know when I touched one of my sub drivers I could count each excursion.(guessing 16-18hz) IMO, this kind of material shouldn't be left on the table, and since you're doing the build, why not have it all?

My current sub gives me 25hz -3dB and 20hz -6dB. My goal is output, not deeper extension. I current get a max of 105dB with the sub 1500, which limits my ability to play closer to reference levels, which is what I am going for. The sub I have now is the only weak link holding me back from doing so, as I can easily achieve reference level with the Klipsch setup using.

25 hz is a budget decision. While a response to 16hz would be awesome, getting that response at 110dB would require 4 18” drivers. Modeling the UM 18 in a ported cabinet fails to give me a response to 16hz without a drooping response.


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[yepimonfire]

Have you modeled anything yet, including rew plots? Can you take a picture of the room to get an idea of the layout?

The room is 1920 cu ft and measures 20x12x8, mlp is 3m from the fronts. Placing a single sub on the front wall 2’ from the wall and 3.5’ from the side wall yield an even response throughout most of the room and a +-5dB response at the mlp. The back of the room is open to two split level staircases, so I get minimal reflection of bass from the back wall.


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[everettT]

The room is 1920 cu ft and measures 20x12x8, mlp is 3m from the fronts. Placing a single sub on the front wall 2’ from the wall and 3.5’ from the side wall yield an even response throughout most of the room and a +-5dB response at the mlp. The back of the room is open to two split level staircases, so I get minimal reflection of bass from the back wall.


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How did you determine the placement on the front wall? Have you modeled the subs and used that data in rew to find placement options?

 

[yepimonfire]

How did you determine the placement on the front wall? Have you modeled the subs and used that data in rew to find placement options?

When I first put the sub in my room that’s in there now that’s where I measured the flattest response. I spent 12+ hours over several days tweaking the placement and layout of the system, measuring response, group delay, phase, listening, manually eqing etc. to determine that placement spot and the listening position.

I’m a bit of a perfectionist with it, to the point where I made sure my speakers and seat were within a half inch of center reference to the side wall, spl within a .5dB tolerance of 85dB, acoustic panel placement determined using a room reflection simulator, all speakers exactly toed in directly at the mlp using a laser pointer, tweeters centered exactly at ear level using adjustable stands, crossover points set based on measured in room response, distance set within 1/10th of a foot, and the placement angles (22 degrees for the l/r, 110 for the surround, 55 for the top middle etc) were exact by calculating the angles of the triangle formed. I don’t believe I could do a better job of setting it up if I tried.

Multiple subs spread out across the room would no doubt flatten the response around the room, but since nobody sits outside of the Goldilocks zone, which is +-5dB from 25hz-24khz, it’s pointless for my setup.


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