ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
If you use it as preamp only, I highly doubt the P6 can beat it, except in the features department.
It really sounds like I should run my Marantz through the ATI amp with my full range speakers and Outlaw sub.. I actually haven't tried this set up.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It really sounds like I should run my Marantz through the ATI amp with my full range speakers and Outlaw sub.. I actually haven't tried this set up.
Absolutely, the PM8005 benefits from their direct blood related reference series, that means shared parts and potentially some circuit topologies. The power amp section is limited only in terms of output capability. The ATI amp can take care of that, but I thought you still need one with bass management for the LS50.
 
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ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Absolutely, the PM8005 benefits from their direct blood related reference series, that means shared parts and potentially some circuit topologies. The power amp section is limited only in terms of output capability. The ATI amp can take care of that, but I thought you still need one with bass management for the LS50.
This is true. I listen at louder levels and the LS50 can not handled some of the deeper tones at higher levels. They are fantastic with a sub however. So... maybe still.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
This is true. I listen at louder levels and the LS50 can not handled some of the deeper tones at higher levels. They are fantastic with a sub however. So... maybe still.
I hear you, and as you know I have the LS50 so I understand the tough choices you are facing. The LS50 really need a sub and cross at 100-110 Hz to sound "full range" and more dynamic. I know you don't like avrs and don't believe in using one for 2 ch music enjoyment, but let me tell you again (if I did before already),the AVR-X3400H could do an excellent job on its own driving my LS50, sitting 10-11 ft from them in a roughly 11.5X23X9 but open to other rooms. It really sounded so amazing (with our without Audyssey on),that I decided to take measurements to see what's going on, and compare the results to that of my separate 2 ch preamp+power amp system. Found no difference visually either, so I thought that backs up my subjective experience. I now use my left over Marantz prepro+amp to drive them, along with my sealed Rythmik subwoofer.

If you can overcome your hate;) for avrs, the X3400H now costs only $599 brand new (or $449 refurbished AC4L). Or, if you want to stick with Marantz and don't need XT32, the SR5012 should in theory perform the same.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I can always give it a go and see what happens. What is the equivalent to the Denon X3400H in the Marantz line up?
Strictly speaking, none, the Denon sits between the SR5012 and SR6012. Comparing the schematics, I noted the following:

Power amp section:
- X3400H is almost identical to that of the SR6012, just two channels less and tune to be slightly less powerful
- SR5012 is almost identical, but tune to be even less powerful, also has less blocking capacitance and possibly have a slightly smaller transformer.

Preamp/vol contro:
- All the same, except the SR5012 does not have XT32, and the X3400H does not have HDAM and 7.2 analog in.

If you are only going to use Auto setup to so set the level and distance and choose your own crossovers, then the SR5012 will do the trick, but the X3400H is a little more powerful.

If you go with ACFL just for the trial, do they have a good return policy?
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
I got my new Focal speakers from them. They are very close to me in Florida. Great service too.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I got my new Focal speakers from them. They are very close to me in Florida. Great service too.
So easy to return like Amazon, as long as everything is in as received condition?
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
So easy to return like Amazon, as long as everything is in as received condition?
When I ordered my Canton Book shelves from them. I did try and return and they wanted a restock fee. These were a new product too.. So I kept them.
 
Good4it

Good4it

Audioholic Chief
Accessories 4Less has a return/restock fee For everything except non working or if they made an error. They charge shipping both ways for returning stuff also. Just paid almost $100 to return a AVR unopened .
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So for an honest trial, it may be better to go the Amazon route if the premium for brand new isn't much.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Yep, a high-pass filter like that will filter out the low bass from the music, which is what your Outlaw Subwoofer high-pass filter would do.

How did it sound when you used the Outlaw Sub to filter out the bass for your bookshelf speakers?
Sounded good. I do think my SVS sealed sub does a better job with music. The Outlaw doesn't blend as well and It's huge in that smaller room.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
By the way, I am not really sure if analog filters used in the P6 are better than the digital ones used in the AVR related/derived integrated amps. I actually tend to think that digital may actually be better. Imo, if you reality either you believe in purity then you have to forgo bass management altogether and stick with traditional preamps that don't use ICs and dsps (or the minimal),or if you can "trust" technological advance made in ICs/DSPs, bass management or even REQ then may as well go for units fitted with Dirac/Anthem ARC or even Audyssey XT32. The latter 2 are only available for multichannel units obviously.

You still have your PM 8005 right? I think it has a very high quality preamp section, but then again no bass management.
Since I'm in the midst of testing some products like this, thought I would weigh in. In a perfect world, I tend to agree that digital is better. Using the best quality DSP based systems, I think you can achieve better results with digital chips than with analog equivalents. They are more accurate, channel to channel balance can be maintained at just fractions of a decibel at all levels (very hard to do with analog parts). Crossover points can be set precisely. Group delay can be addressed and minimized. EQ can be added without adding problems. Channel separation can be huge, like 100db plus huge, without using expensive and large parts.

And in my best digital gear, that is what I see. Everything is as good as it gets.

Consumer gear, even pretty expensive consumer gear is another issue. While there are always compromises with all designs, I am finding that consumer-grade DSP implementations are really noisy.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/hifi_components/r-n803/index.html

Here is a good example. I have one of these in for review/long term loan to use as the basis of modestly priced 2-channel gear. The thought was I would use this because it is more similar to what most people use and thus the sound would be good, but I wouldn't be telling people that a $1000 a pair bookshelf sounded awesome when paired with my preamp/DAC/Amps that cost many times as much. And...I actually really like this thing. Musicast is great, the amplifier section sounds good, the entire analog design is great for this price. The DAC is very good, upgraded DAC's didn't sound much different at all.

But the DSP used in this that runs the sub out, does bass management, and does YPAO is very noisy. Most people won't notice with speakers of modest sensitivity. I didn't notice until I measured it, and it wasn't obviously audible until I used it to power a really sensitive pair of speakers. But, the reality is, that DSP chip is VERY noisy compared to the rest of the amplifier. Put it in bypass mode and its night and day. If you turn the volume up to unity gain, there is a loud hiss that turns to total silence in bypass mode.

Digital is probably better, but unless it's a pro-audio piece or really high-end home audio piece, these DSP chips that are commonly used are kind of awful from a fidelity standpoint.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
If I go with an AVR and use my ATI Amp, do I need a TV to set this up in my audio room? I do not currently have an extra TV/Monitor for this.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If I go with an AVR and use my ATI Amp, do I need a TV to set this up in my audio room?
Not for 2Ch Stereo/Direct mode. If you use Audyssey Room Correction, then a TV would be easier.
 
ematthews

ematthews

Audioholic General
Hey... I just looked at the Outlaw 976 preamp. Seems right up my alley if I wasn't interested in the X32 bass correction.. But Getting the Denon seems like a better buy and using it as a Pre.
 

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