10 Biggest Mistakes in Loudspeaker Shopping

[Alamar]

A lot of the regulars may not appreciate the article but me, as a newb, was very happy with it.

 

[jdlech]

Ancient History

I'm going to date myself but I cannot help it.

Back in the 80s when digital was just coming onto the market, the D usually stood for 'digital ready'. There were a loose set of standards established in the industry to mark products as ready for the demands of digital media. For speakers, this included an overall sensitivity of at least 89 Db. @1W/1M. with a recommendation of an SPL at least 91Db.. The two different ratings was a compromise between various companies - those who produced junk complained about the high standard. And since Sony and other companies wanted to sell product, they convinced other companies to lower their standards - but with the higher recommendation.

I also remember recommendations that speakers have a response curve measured within +/- 3Db over their stated range, but I'm not quite certain that was part of the 'digital ready' standard or not. However, I'm sure that in the intervening years, marketing has taken over and now call everything and anything 'digital ready'. I would imagine the designation is totally meaningless these days - especially for low end stuff.

I would add to that list: You could not wait another month or two to save the few extra bucks it takes to get the speakers you really want, so you bought the next step down in price. And now the sound is just not quite what it ought to be.

 

[Funkmonkey]

Owner of "white van" speakers here, an old girlfriend bought them for me as a gift. She knew I was into music and good sound so she thought she was getting a deal. They are big and thoroughly mediocre sounding. At the time I was so mad at her for buying them we nearly broke up right then. She is long since gone and I still have the "white van" specials. Now looking for a good set of speakers... Just wanted to share my experience here, don't let any one you know get suckered by those guys. (and why is it always a white van???)

 

[OldMan29]

ouch.

It's amazing they get people to buy those things.... people don't understand "too good to be true"






My Gear:

B&W Nautilus Mains
Martin Logan Ticket In-wall surrounds/center
Martin Logan Prodigy Rears
Sunfire Mark IV sub.
Marantz DV-9500
Marantz MA-6100 Monoblocks (6)
Marantz AR-14EX
Krell Evolution 3
Random other line conditioners, Pre-amps, Cables/connectors

 

[mudrummer99]

funny story

Funny story about "white van" speakers. My personal run in was with a "Red SUV" and I guess it was my lucky day. The guy was actually selling factory sealed Klipsch F-3's for $50 a pop, and he was loaded down with them. If I hadn't been such a wimp for fencing in stolen goods, I could have made out like *cough* a bandit.

Here's the funny part. The speakers were actually part of a shipment that had been incredibly light compared to the manifest on a delivery to Best Buy, where I just happened to be working in the home theater department. One call to the cops with the license plate and vehicle description and it was done. 2 months later we had the speakers back on our shelves. Best part is BB gave me a nice little "thank you" gift for helping them bust these guys. Apparently they had been doing this for years and in just that one bust they found something like $300k worth of merchandise in their house.

 

[chadnliz]

I have what many would consider Hi-End speakers and also many would call me a sort of Audiophile, I have a nice system of about $30K, travel to the Hi-Fi shows, belong to a small HiFI club and subscribe to 3 HIFI magazines, a few months ago a friend gave me a pair of the "Wite Van speakers" he bought just to see what they actually were, he braced them, added Dynamat, insulation, replaced cross-over and mounted rear tweeters to them, I use them for my wifes system and they sound good for what they are.
I just thought I would confess my sins, maybe I will get a good nights sleep!

 

[haraldo]

I thought that these Digital speakers were supposed to be good, I had read favorable reviews on them.

Are all speakers advertised as "DIGITAL" truly to be avoided?

YES!!!!

There are no digital speakers, if the speakers were digital you wouldn't be able to hear anything.....

Regards

Harald N

 

[Kweyama]

I thought that these Digital speakers were supposed to be good, I had read favorable reviews on them.

Are all speakers advertised as "DIGITAL" truly to be avoided?

They are absolutely Awesome!
I would suggest you drive them using Meridian Hardware, if you are going to go the whole hog on DSP 8000s, might as well mortgage the house and get the 800 reference and transport, and bliss your way to receivership. .. But truly, they are mind-bending. Just make sure your dealer does the set-up for you, be very precise in your instruction to the set-up fellow.

 

[haraldo]

I agree with a whole bunch of the things that the Audioholics write or publish BUT!

I actually think there's a great BUT......

I have been living with phase coherent speakers for more than 15 years and in my opinion this makes a difference... I can never ever recall that you have ever mentioned such stuff as phase coherent speakers..

The idea is that a phase linear speaker is genuine to phase and all that relates to the time domain, only speakers with 1st ord x-overs can do this.
In my knowledge these are the only speaker brands to follow this:
Dunlavy (out of business), duntech, Meadowlark (out of business), Thiel, Vandersteen, VAF, Audio Machina

All other speakers will have some kinds of phase aberrations. A speaker with a 4th prder x-over will play the music on opposite phase to everything else at the x-over point...
Most people claim this to be irrelevant.... I don't think so

It would be interesting to hear you guy's opinion on this.......

Some people say that the simple small phase coherent speakers are the best imaging speakers in the world, making a laughing stock of all the Wilson gear.... I'm not saying that, I'm just quetsioning..................

Regards

Harald N

 

[Panhandler801]

very interesting thread, especically for a newbie. thanks

 

[Dr. Jurek]

Help me Choose Speakers

I read the article, and will avoid all those mistakes. Now, I'm seeking advice from this forum. I want to build a super Home Theater Audio system around my new Samsung 46" HDTV and Onkyo TX-SR705 receiver.
I have a small room, 14x16, so volume is not primary. I’m looking for L/R Front and Center speakers that will sound great, even at lower volume, for both Blu-Ray movie surround as well as Stereo CDs and LP music (Rega TT). I listen all kinds of music from Chopin to Coldplay.
Any suggestions for state of the art with a budget between $500 and $1,000.
(I’m used to the sound of my KEF 104/2 Towers, and I’m using my old KEF C-Series for the Surround L&R).

 

[tandylacker]

Try Aperion speakers. Aperionaudio.com

They have great customer service, great products, and are affordable.

 

[tandylacker]

That last post was for Dr. Jurek's question.

 

[chest_burster]

Good article for beginners.

I had a set of Aperion's (632LR) that went back. They were decent speakers, nicely finished, and I would've been happy with them. But for $600/pr I really felt I could do better. And I did.

All the attacks against buying speakers retail is partially true, but when was the last time anyone paid MSRP for a set of Polks, Klipsch, Infinity, or other comparable speaker? The Aperion prix fixe, no haggle approach may appeal to some, but not me.

As for "white van speakers," they actually got me into audio equipment 8 years ago! I was cornered in a Baltimore parking lot by some scary figures with "$1200" Denmark loudspeakers. "Watch me punch the cone!" and such. They weren't going to let me leave, and since they finally said "$50" I said what the hell, curiousity got the best of me.

I had a Sansui hand-me-down receiver from Dad with a set of Advents to match. When I plugged in the Denmarks I was immediately "WTF?" Even worse then I'd expected. Must've been very low sensitivity, badly finished, and I don't even think the woofers were connected. I Yahoo'd (pre-Google domination ) "speakers from parking lot" and had a good laugh.

For $50 they were worth a laugh. I replaced them with some real Danish speakers via Jamo and never looked back... until upgraditis took over.

 

[R-Carpenter]

I agree with a whole bunch of the things that the Audioholics write or publish BUT!

I actually think there's a great BUT......

I have been living with phase coherent speakers for more than 15 years and in my opinion this makes a difference... I can never ever recall that you have ever mentioned such stuff as phase coherent speakers..

The idea is that a phase linear speaker is genuine to phase and all that relates to the time domain, only speakers with 1st ord x-overs can do this.
In my knowledge these are the only speaker brands to follow this:
Dunlavy (out of business), duntech, Meadowlark (out of business), Thiel, Vandersteen, VAF, Audio Machina

All other speakers will have some kinds of phase aberrations. A speaker with a 4th prder x-over will play the music on opposite phase to everything else at the x-over point...
Most people claim this to be irrelevant.... I don't think so

It would be interesting to hear you guy's opinion on this.......

Some people say that the simple small phase coherent speakers are the best imaging speakers in the world, making a laughing stock of all the Wilson gear.... I'm not saying that, I'm just quetsioning..................

Regards

Harald N

Yes and No.
There's a benefit to having a phase coherent speaker but simply ruling out 4th order electrical x-over is a mistake.
As with anything else in the speaker design, there's a benefit and drawback to every aspect.
Phase coherency can be achieved by offsetting acoustical centers of the drivers in relation to each other. There's also an option of building a delay network in to a passive crossover.
Unlike 4th order passive electrical crossover, 1st order have a terrible polar response, provide very shallow roll off for the drivers and require very precise driver positioning on the front buffle of the loudspeaker and in relation to each other. There's a believe that 1st order gives you purest sound because of the less components used. The drawback is that usually, very wide frequency drivers such as Fostex or Bandor are required and while the idea has some points behind it, this drivers have less then perfect frequency response. Quite frankly, I haven't heard a “WOW” 1st order based loudspeaker but I haven't heard them all by any means. I have seen Theil crossover boards and they look like very high quality but not exactly 1st order.

 

[filmdog]

Why Do D to A Conversion in a Speaker?

It's interesting that there are now speakers that do their own D to A conversion, but I have to ask "Why".

Are these speakers "Self-Powered"? If they're not, I don't understand how the speakers work at all. A digital signal doesn't vary in power the way an analog signal does, does it ?
So if that's the case, you can't actually drive a speaker with a digital signal that's converted to analog without putting the analog signal through an amplifier.

Loudspeakers are electro-mechanical transducers, taking electrical energy (in the form of current) and converting it to acoustical energy (in the form of "sound waves" in a given medium, such as air.)

I'm sure our engineering folks can do a much better job of explaining this than I can. But the point I'm trying to make is that it seems that the basic point made at the start of this thread remains true: a "digital speaker" doesn't really exist, and the buyer would be wise to shop for speakers as if they were acoustical musical instruments, and not pay too much attention to the few electronic components in them. Let a good amplifier do the electronic heavy lifting.

Please tell me if I'm wrong about this. Every old dog needs to learn new tricks.

 

[JackVa1]

Amen to that. I've been caught out several times with this one. Luckily I have a dealer who virtually insists on home dems so no money has ever changed hands, but it's now got to the stage that I completely disregard the sound of speakers in any room other than my own.

Si

Does this not make an argument for why a Bose system might sound good at home with all the reflective activity in a room?

I am amazed at the snobbery sometimes, but also notice it stops at the $20,000 Meridians. Suddenly that's too much speaker. Convenient snobbery.

 

[JerryLove]

Does this not make an argument for why a Bose system might sound good at home with all the reflective activity in a room?

You would have to define "good". It's unlikely that you will come closer to source material by modifying the output from a speaker with the room. You also will not be filling the gaps in the speaker.

In essence you are putting the sub in the corner. It doesn't make it a better or worse sub, nor add frequencies or precision, but it does affect the sound.

I am amazed at the snobbery sometimes, but also notice it stops at the $20,000 Meridians. Suddenly that's too much speaker. Convenient snobbery.

How snobby? I've seen people recommend sub-$200 speakers.

 

[R-Carpenter]

It's interesting that there are now speakers that do their own D to A conversion, but I have to ask "Why".

Are these speakers "Self-Powered"? If they're not, I don't understand how the speakers work at all. A digital signal doesn't vary in power the way an analog signal does, does it ?
So if that's the case, you can't actually drive a speaker with a digital signal that's converted to analog without putting the analog signal through an amplifier.

Loudspeakers are electro-mechanical transducers, taking electrical energy (in the form of current) and converting it to acoustical energy (in the form of "sound waves" in a given medium, such as air.)

I'm sure our engineering folks can do a much better job of explaining this than I can. But the point I'm trying to make is that it seems that the basic point made at the start of this thread remains true: a "digital speaker" doesn't really exist, and the buyer would be wise to shop for speakers as if they were acoustical musical instruments, and not pay too much attention to the few electronic components in them. Let a good amplifier do the electronic heavy lifting.

Please tell me if I'm wrong about this. Every old dog needs to learn new tricks.

There's no truly digital speaker. It means that each speaker has a D/A converter build in to it. It also has an amplifier build in so there's no need to provide a separate amp. It's about signal transfer from source to the loudspeaker.
The suggested benefits are: better channel separation and the amp that's specifically designed for the combination of drivers, perhaps altering problematic areas in FR of the speaker. Good or bad is a matter of budget and personal taste. Meridians are very good to my knowledge but also pricey. On the other hand you could use a 5.1(with coax outputs for each channel) dvd player and eliminate the need for the receiver.

 

[Cpt.America]

You mean some people don't carry?

Floridians get 'em as baby gifts.

(Glock 32 w/ 2 mags)

Amen to being prepared. Not only would I avoid conflict at all costs, especially if the misses and kiddies were with me, but I am never unprepared. sig229 in .40 at all times.