10/17/06: A Dark Day in American History

[rmongiovi]

What this self annointed intellectual does not understand

Wow! "Self annointed intellectual!" Did I call myself that?

Nah. I couldn't be an intellectual. After all, I disagree with you....

Perhaps you just couldn't follow my argument. I'll type more slowly in the future.

 

[craigsub]

Wow! "Self annointed intellectual!" Did I call myself that?

Nah. I couldn't be an intellectual. After all, I disagree with you....

Perhaps you just couldn't follow my argument. I'll type more slowly in the future.

Follow your argument ? Which one, the part where China takes over Southern California, and then gives it to American Indians ?

Or the part where we are on one side, and the remaining 6.5 billion people of the world are on the other side ?

Maybe it was the part about "true communist nations" ... Can you name one ?

This is not about you disagreeing with me. In fact, people who use that type of phrase "Afterall, I disagree with you" do so because they cannot make an intellectual argument.

For example, your asinine rants about Indians living in the desert: This is pure genius. All the deserts in Upstate New York are a sight to see. I cannot wait to tell my Indian friends there that they live in a "freakin desert". I am sure they will be laughing their collective butts off at that one. Looking forward to your "slowly typed" response.

 

[highfihoney]

Some of the anologys used in this thread to equate the terrorists perspective with a soldiers perspective are laughable at best,now were talking about indians,chineese,jews & anybody else for comparison when the plain truth is that there is no other race of people that can ever be compared to these monsters & monsters is exactly what they are.

Anybody who is effected by this new law deserves the scrutiny that is put on them.

 

[rmongiovi]

For example, your asinine rants about Indians living in the desert: This is pure genius. All the deserts in Upstate New York are a sight to see. I cannot wait to tell my Indian friends there that they live in a "freakin desert". I am sure they will be laughing their collective butts off at that one. Looking forward to your "slowly typed" response.

Are you perhaps offering upstate NY as an alternative to southern CA. 'Cause when I look at the map - http://www.cr.nps.gov/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/ResMAP.HTM - it looks to me like most of the American Indians got stuck in places we don't want to live.

But of course, some of your best friends are Indians, so I guess you must know better....

 

[craigsub]

Are you perhaps offering upstate NY as an alternative to southern CA. 'Cause when I look at the map - http://www.cr.nps.gov/nagpra/DOCUMENTS/ResMAP.HTM - it looks to me like most of the American Indians got stuck in places we don't want to live.

But of course, some of your best friends are Indians, so I guess you must know better....

This is another sign of someone who lacks the intelligence for a discussion: Posting a link as "proof" of a position.

You are also now a liar. At no time did I say some of my best friends are Indians. I said I have Indian friends. One of my businesses is located 4 miles from a reservation, and we deal with Indians on a regular basis.

Unlike your racist comments about their needing Casinos to survive, the Indians I know have been thriving for generations, and they laugh at the propaganda spewed about them.

 

[rmongiovi]

Some of the anologys used in this thread to equate the terrorists perspective with a soldiers perspective are laughable at best,now were talking about indians,chineese,jews & anybody else for comparison when the plain truth is that there is no other race of people that can ever be compared to these monsters & monsters is exactly what they are.

Anybody who is effected by this new law deserves the scrutiny that is put on them.

You live in a very simplistic world, don't you? History tells us that government uses those sorts of powers against people they don't like, not just against people who deserve it. Remember, the people applying those laws are human too, and subject to all the foibles humans have expressed throughout history.

You need only look at the asset forfeiture laws that have been used in the war on drugs. Volusia county in Florida had a lovely sheriff who used them to take cash away from black college students without any due process. Be very careful who you give those sort of powers to, you might not like the results.

From your comment about the law, I suspect you are not an American Muslim and that you don't look middle eastern. Perhaps you would have a different opinion if you did.

However, back to my argument. You call them monsters, and I certainly won't bother to disagree. As before, all I ask is how you expect that to help solve the problem. The very fact that you label them as monsters, deserved or not, takes away from them all need to act as anything but monsters. As we are doing in Iraq, you create the enemy you intend to eradicate. Again I ask, how do you intend to win this battle?

 

[highfihoney]

I think with a good work-over the law could be made into something that allows us to fairly and humanely treat and prosecute those who attack us.

If this new law gets the standard work over where everybodys main concern is the humane treatment of those who attack us it will be nothing more than a media circus,the main concern with this law & any other law of this nature should be how to quickly & catch & eliminate those who would harm us not to worry about how they are treated in the process.

Once you join an anti us group that has vowed to do harm by any means to the usa & its allies you automaticaly give up any rights you had under our constitution.

 

[craigsub]

You live in a very simplistic world, don't you? History tells us that government uses those sorts of powers against people they don't like, not just against people who deserve it. Remember, the people applying those laws are human too, and subject to all the foibles humans have expressed throughout history.

You need only look at the asset forfeiture laws that have been used in the war on drugs. Volusia county in Florida had a lovely sheriff who used them to take cash away from black college students without any due process. Be very careful who you give those sort of powers to, you might not like the results.

From your comment about the law, I suspect you are not an American Muslim and that you don't look middle eastern. Perhaps you would have a different opinion if you did.

However, back to my argument. You call them monsters, and I certainly won't bother to disagree. As before, all I ask is how you expect that to help solve the problem. The very fact that you label them as monsters, deserved or not, takes away from them all need to act as anything but monsters. As we are doing in Iraq, you create the enemy you intend to eradicate. Again I ask, how do you intend to win this battle?

Why don't we make you our lead negotiator with the Al-Quaida ? You fly over, and explain that we really want to co-exist with them, and then you negotiate an agreement. I am sure they will be very willing to work with a reasonable guy like you.

 

[rmongiovi]

Unlike your racist comments about their needing Casinos to survive, the Indians I know have been thriving for generations, and they laugh at the propaganda spewed about them.

I didn't say they needed casinos to survive. I implied that they use the fact that they can build casinos on their land, being a sovereign nation, to improve their condition. After we took an entire continent away from them, I think that's pretty smart. I'm not exactly sure how you label that "racist."

As far as the map goes, I simply entered that as evidence. It's not my opinion and it's not your opinion. It's fact. I don't see large swaths of territory labelled "reservation" in upstate NY. Not even in the full size map. If there are some there, I'm not sure how that completely invalidates my conclusion that we shoved the native American into parts of the country we don't want. And anyway, if submitting evidence into a discussion isn't the appropriate way to conduct an argument, what exactly is?

 

[highfihoney]

You live in a very simplistic world, don't you? History tells us that government uses those sorts of powers against people they don't like, not just against people who deserve it. Remember, the people applying those laws are human too, and subject to all the foibles humans have expressed throughout history.

Nice lecture but it aint makin it,simplistic......no,more like realistic.

 

[highfihoney]

You need only look at the asset forfeiture laws that have been used in the war on drugs. Volusia county in Florida had a lovely sheriff who used them to take cash away from black college students without any due process. Be very careful who you give those sort of powers to, you might not like the results.

Do you have any first hand experience with the countless people who have been rightfully convicted under any of the forfiture laws,i'd be willing to bet all your information on this subject is from television or reading.

Not something im proud of or ashamed of but ive been in the prison system with many of the people that you use as an example & i can tell you first hand that they belong there & deserved to loose everything they had,the forfiture laws are a good thing.

 

[rmongiovi]

Nice lecture but it aint makin it,simplistic......no,more like realistic.

I'm missing your pronoun reference here. What's realistic?

You need only look at the number of inmates on death row who have been pardoned after DNA evidence proves they could not have committed the crime. And those people had the full benefit of our "innocent until proven guilty" legal system.

Being accused of something does not make you guilty. You deserve the right to defend yourself from unjust accusations. Sometimes the people making the accusations have ulterior motives.

Wouldn't you feel a bit pissed spending 5 or 10 or 15 years behind bars, with no ability to defend yourself or recourse to question why you're being held just because your next door neighbor wants to boink your wife? Or your partner wants to run your business? Do you really think those sorts of things don't happen?

 

[highfihoney]

From your comment about the law, I suspect you are not an American Muslim and that you don't look middle eastern. Perhaps you would have a different opinion if you did.

You spew this nonsense out as if you had a clue,your comments show me just how clueless you really are,just because im white & have a good job does not mean im treated fairly by any police agency infact its the total opposite.

I have a felony prison record for attempted murder,im tatooed from my neck to my waist,do you honestly think that i have no idea of how the government treats people,99% of the time when i get pulled over by the police the cop has his gun drawn,the airports are no friggen picknick for me either but i dont go around crying about how unfairly i get treated,the way i get treated is brought on by my own actions 35 years ago & i deal with it.

You have no idea as to why people are treated the way they are by the government.

 

[rmongiovi]

Do you have any first hand experience with the countless people who have been rightfully convicted under any of the forfiture laws,i'd be willing to bet all your information on this subject is from television or reading.

Asset forfeiture doesn't put you in jail. In fact, you don't even get a ticket. They just assume that you wouldn't have cash if it wasn't for drugs.

And no, I don't have any first hand experience, even though I did grow up in Volusia County (Daytona Beach, actually) while all this was going on. I saw the video footage shot automatically by the sheriff's car as he took the cash. That's better than "hearsay", I think. But are you seriously saying that I'm not allowed to learn from anything unless it's personal experience? I really thought that reading, and watching the news reports, were acceptable. Whyever did I spend all those years in school?

 

[craigsub]

I'm missing your pronoun reference here. What's realistic?

You need only look at the number of inmates on death row who have been pardoned after DNA evidence proves they could not have committed the crime. And those people had the full benefit of our "innocent until proven guilty" legal system.

Being accused of something does not make you guilty. You deserve the right to defend yourself from unjust accusations. Sometimes the people making the accusations have ulterior motives.

Wouldn't you feel a bit pissed spending 5 or 10 or 15 years behind bars, with no ability to defend yourself or recourse to question why you're being held just because your next door neighbor wants to boink your wife? Or your partner wants to run your business? Do you really think those sorts of things don't happen?

As I said earlier, you are a nut. Get help. For your own sake.

 

[highfihoney]

I'm missing your pronoun reference here. What's realistic?

You need only look at the number of inmates on death row who have been pardoned after DNA evidence proves they could not have committed the crime. And those people had the full benefit of our "innocent until proven guilty" legal system.

Being accused of something does not make you guilty. You deserve the right to defend yourself from unjust accusations. Sometimes the people making the accusations have ulterior motives.

Wouldn't you feel a bit pissed spending 5 or 10 or 15 years behind bars, with no ability to defend yourself or recourse to question why you're being held just because your next door neighbor wants to boink your wife? Or your partner wants to run your business? Do you really think those sorts of things don't happen?

Your killing me with all these prison references,have you ever been there? if not i suggest you use something that you know about instead, ive been there & i can tell you first hand that every last person i met behind the walls deserved to be there & was given every option to defend themself.

 

[rmongiovi]

You spew this nonsense out as if you had a clue,your comments show me just how clueless you really are,just because im white & have a good job does not mean im treated fairly by any police agency infact its the total opposite.

I have a felony prison record for attempted murder,im tatooed from my neck to my waist,do you honestly think that i have no idea of how the government treats people,99% of the time when i get pulled over by the police the cop has his gun drawn,the airports are no friggen picknick for me either but i dont go around crying about how unfairly i get treated,the way i get treated is brought on by my own actions 35 years ago & i deal with it.

You have no idea as to why people are treated the way they are by the government.

Well, now I must truthfully admit that I'm clueless about why you, who have experienced the injustice of the system with all its built in protections, would voluntarily give up those same protections. You made a mistake, and paid your penalty, and I personally do not believe you should be treated that way. Were I you, knowing that people will judge me by my look and condemn me without asking questions, I would be fighting tooth and nail for every protection from false accusations I could.

Is it "misery loves company?"

 

[rmongiovi]

As I said earlier, you are a nut. Get help. For your own sake.

No, I'm attracted by your well reasoned arguments. You almost have me convinced. Perhaps if you explained it a bit better you would have me completely persuaded.

By the way, this is called an "ad hominem" attack. Look it up; it is not normally considered the most convincing of methods to prove your point. Perhaps you would have better luck arguing the topic rather than calling me names.

 

[highfihoney]

Asset forfeiture doesn't put you in jail. In fact, you don't even get a ticket. They just assume that you wouldn't have cash if it wasn't for drugs.

And no, I don't have any first hand experience, even though I did grow up in Volusia County (Daytona Beach, actually) while all this was going on. I saw the video footage shot automatically by the sheriff's car as he took the cash. That's better than "hearsay", I think. But are you seriously saying that I'm not allowed to learn from anything unless it's personal experience? I really thought that reading, and watching the news reports, were acceptable. Whyever did I spend all those years in school?

The problem with learning from watching tv & reading the newspapers is that you only get one side of the story & the side that is presented to the public is 100% bs written to obtain veiwers & readers not to portray the whole truth.

Ever seen how viscous some of these people act who have been affected by the drug forfiture laws once their behind bars,how about the muslim gangs who preach god is love then turn around & sell some white punk into slavery,the problrem with getting all your information from the media is that you get very little insight into the real nature of people.

 

[highfihoney]

Well, now I must truthfully admit that I'm clueless about why you, who have experienced the injustice of the system with all its built in protections, would voluntarily give up those same protections. You made a mistake, and paid your penalty, and I personally do not believe you should be treated that way. Were I you, knowing that people will judge me by my look and condemn me without asking questions, I would be fighting tooth and nail for every protection from false accusations I could.

Is it "misery loves company?"

What a stupid comment,why should i fight tooth & nail about anything,who but myself is there to be pissed at.

Should i be angry at the cop who pulls his gun out on me over a simple traffic stop,is it his fault that my name comes up on his screen to approach with caution,these people are just trying to do their job & be able to go home safely to their wives & children.

Should i be angry at the judge who sentenced me to prison for beating a man half to death with a tree limb after he robbed me at gun point,no,i should of stopped beating him after i was out of danger but instead i chose to keep going.

Should i be angry at the security people at the airports who religiuosly detain me & search every last peice of my body & luggage trying to keep other people safe.

Should i be angry at the customs officers at the border between detroit & canada when they rip my car apart every time i cross the border because they have access to all my records.

The answer is no,all of these people are just doing a job trying to keep the mass population safe & the only person that is to blame for the way im treated is me.

This is what im talking about that you the general public dont see & that is why people are treated the way they are & what they have done in previous years of their lives to cause this kind of treatment.

As you said that you would fight tooth & nail if you were in my shoes makes me realize why your beliefs are what they are.