Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If these were not double-blind tests, then this is absolutely, 100% useless.

Human bias is a biotch to get around!

Level matching and instant switching are absolutely important in addition to removing bias.

I doubt if many people are able to hook up the 2 components to a switcher box and compare instantly with level-matching.

So most likely they listened to the AVP. Then unplugged. Then hooked up the Marantz. Then listened with bias and compared by pure memory and non-level matched.

Understandable in most cases. Same with speaker comparisons. 100% nonchalant subjective listening, not really formally critical comparison.

 

[fuzz092888]

Level matching and instant switching are absolutely important in addition to removing bias.

I doubt if many people are able to hook up the 2 components to a switcher box and compare instantly with level-matching.

So most likely they listened to the AVP. Then unplugged. Then hooked up the Marantz. Then listened with bias and compared by pure memory and non-level matched.

Understandable in most cases. Same with speaker comparisons. 100% nonchalant subjective listening, not really formally critical comparison.

I actually just got a box that will do that. Although it is only could only be single blind since you have to have someone push the buttons, unless you have a third person set it up so the button pusher didn't know what was connected to what.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I actually just got a box that will do that. Although it is only could only be single blind since you have to have someone push the buttons, unless you have a third person set it up so the button pusher didn't know what was connected to what.

Single-blinded is fine. The important thing is level matching and instant switching.

I think more than 2 minute between comparisons is too long and inaccurate.

 

[jinjuku]

Single-blinded is fine. The important thing is level matching and instant switching.

I think more than 2 minute between comparisons is too long and inaccurate.

That is very much dependent on the claim being made. When the term night and day is used I think that gives latitude to the testing stricture.

 

[RichB]

I missed this if you mentioned it... What player are you using? Why not bitstream over HDMI with the 8801 doing all processing?

Currently, BDP-105, BDP-103D, and BDP-95 (I beta test for Oppo).

My preference is for Analog 7.1 Pure Direct mode since I do not use Audyssey or my Subwoofer for 2.0 LCPM. Music has been ripped to a NAS and the J River streams via the USB DAC to the BDP-105 using WASAPI Event Driven 24-bit with no padding. Trust me, how you send the bits changes the sound as well. Bits are bits but DACs seem to like to be properly fed

- Rich

 

[fuzz092888]

Single-blinded is fine. The important thing is level matching and instant switching.

I think more than 2 minute between comparisons is too long and inaccurate.

Well this Russound, much like the Adcom boxes you have, can switch between multiple sets of speakers. However, it also can switch between two different amps and has volume knobs to level match. Switches between two speakers or two amps can be made in ~2-3 seconds.

 

[agarwalro]

My preference is for Analog 7.1 Pure Direct mode since I do not use Audyssey or my Subwoofer for 2.0 LCPM. Music has been ripped to a NAS and the J River streams via the USB DAC to the BDP-105 using WAPAPI Event Driven 24-bit with no padding.

OK, that makes sense.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well this Russound, much like the Adcom boxes you have, can switch between multiple sets of speakers. However, it also can switch between two different amps and has volume knobs to level match. Switches between two speakers or two amps can be made in ~2-3 seconds.

I also looked at the Russound. But it doesn't have banana connectors. I don't think it is "rated" for 200W either.

And let us know how the sound quality is. Some switch boxes have some kind of limiters that tend to adversely affect the SQ. I wonder how the volume control on the box affects the SQ. Hopefully it will be all good for you. The Niles unit I tried also had volume control for matching, but it had lower SQ.

The Bryston and Adcom boxes do not even offer volume control, so volume matching has to be done on the processor (Quick Select buttons).

 

[fuzz092888]

I also looked at the Russound. But it doesn't have banana connectors. I don't think it is "rated" for 200W either.

And let us know how the sound quality is. Some switch boxes have some kind of limiters that tend to adversely affect the SQ. I wonder how the volume control on the box affects the SQ. Hopefully it will be all good for you. The Niles unit I tried also had volume control for matching, but it had lower SQ.

The Bryston and Adcom boxes do not even offer volume control, so volume matching has to be done on the processor (Quick Select buttons).

The banana connectors isn't an issue for me since the connectors they come with are easy to use. The 4.1 is rated for 200 watts continous and 600 peak.

So far zero degradtion of SQ to my ears. It has autoformers in it somewhat like the Mcintosh amps and I don't think they have affected SQ at all.

 

[PENG]

But it's obvious that at least one section of the design was less than ideal that brought down the sum of the entire SQ. Putting it another way, if the design does everything right and they pooch it in the volume control section or the excruciating long signal path by using a card based approach or less than ideal signal capacitors or an under whelming control of the jitter, the net result is the Class A output / differential designed won't overcome the short comings. I don't where they didn't get it right and I really don't care. I care about the end result.

At the same token, if the 8801 (on paper) uses an lower caliber DAC that happens to sound better or if they used a better (fill in the blank) design approach on several fronts, the net-net will result in the AV8801 to sound subjectively better as an aggregate. Class A output / differential designed or not.

I have explained to every customer who traded in his AVP that the 8801 should NOT sound better but I conclude they will hear the same thing as others. As I said earlier, I give them the 8801 and ask them to give me back the one that sound worse. I've taken in trade all but one. One guys room sucked and I explained what he needed to do to improve it. He could not hear a difference and didn't want to "lose money that he invested" on the AVP. The other 10 heard what I heard.


SO it really doesn't matter if the 8801 was never meant to be a replacement. It sounds BETTER. Did you ever do a head-to-head sonic comparison? I cannot imagine that you did. I would have to search hard to find someone who likes the AVP better sonically.

Okay then, I like specs that are verified by lab measurements so I am very interested in trading (just a stright fair trade so it would cost them nothing) my only 6 months old 8801 for either Gene or ADTG's AVP. Do you think you can help me convince one of them to do that? It would be much appreciated, and you know it would be a good deal for them right?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Okay then, I like specs that are verified by lab measurements so I am very interested in trading (just a stright fair trade so it would cost them nothing) my only 6 months old 8801 for either Gene or ADTG's AVP. Do you think you can help me convince one of them to do that? It would be much appreciated, and you know it would be a good deal for them right?

Oh hells no.

Not even for a brand new one.

I am utterly speechless about guys who would give up their $7500 AVP for a much less expensive Marantz. Speechless I tell yah.

 

[gene]

Oh hells no.

Not even for a brand new one.

I am utterly speechless about guys who would give up their $7500 AVP for a much less expensive Marantz. Speechless I tell yah.

Downgrading is the new upgrading

 

[AV_Nut]

Audiogon has one AVP for sale with a $5k asking price and the seller is in the USA not Mexico.

and I ask again, were you able to switch between the processors instantaneously? What kind of switch box was used. Where was the configuration of the processors? What type of source material was used? So much ambiguity but I expect nothing less from the prior posts you've made.

Oh, and did you use different HDMI cables since you can clearly hear differences in HDMI cables too, LOL.

It seems not many people read posts. I clearly stated that I reside in MN (that is "Minnesota"). I was in "Mexico" and the abbreviation for that is MX.

Since you assume I am a lair, you will notice my IP address yesterday was in MX. Now I am at my lake home in northern MN (see how it correlates). Next week if I don't give up on your site, I will be in my home in AZ (Arizona).

Re: the AVP advertisement. Put Denon followed by A1HDCI into Audiogon's search engine. Note, there is a guy who has an advertisement for a Denon prepro. That person selling is from MN (not MX).

If you like and in a private email, I will supply some FEDEX Freight weight bills showing I sent off several used Denon AVP's to customers. Furthermore, I'd be delighted to ask my customers if they would like to talk to you personally on the phone. You can tell them how misinformed they are. How they didn't hear what they thought they heard. Let them know your measurements positively proved otherwise (even though YOU never tested them side-by-side with your ear). Please explain to them that the ONLY way to know if they got a better product was by a scientific double blind test of course, listen to what your measurement say). Also. If they call Denon or Marantz and ask which sound "better to them" and they say the 8801, tell them they are only out to sell new product. Additionally, please explain that the designers who wanted to include "inferior" sounding HDAM's forgot to ask your opinion. Then they will tell you why they were skeptical yet they kept the 8801. I know... I have too much bite in my post. I am simply reciprocating. How about we shift the tone in future posts to be more professional. Agreed? :

and I ask again, were you able to switch between the processors instantaneously? What kind of switch box was used. Where was the configuration of the processors? What type of source material was used? So much ambiguity but I expect nothing less from the prior posts you've made.

Gene. Do you own an ABX box? I do. Since you seem to question everything that I post, would you like to see a picture of it? Maybe I can take a picture of it in front of two Denon 4520's showing you that I own them as well. I have two in my home (2 systems). I also own a QSC ABX box. Since we are questioning a crucial piece of test equipment, maybe you too can put up a picture of your ABX box too. Kind of a mutually assured B.S. verification.

I've spent MANY hours listening HOW to test and pass in the blind. Most of the people who claim to experts on this topic of listening in the blind have not done squat. Your forum is full of them. The 3 hours of research in the topic has been parroted in every forum across the globe and tidbits have been regurgitated time and time again until it has become "fact". Your post^^ showed how too many parroted tidbits so I know you haven't done much on the topic. So ambiguity is key. Because by being specific can only suck me into posting on a topic that has been debated for years with absolutely no resolution. If I had an ounce of intelligence, I would have chuckled at Marshall's 5 year old news that a customer linked to me and saved several hours of wasted words.

With that in mind, let's see how you do in the blind. You want me to believe you are the expert and that I don't know squat. Tell me where you live and I will fly out to you on my nickel and test you in the blind. Do you have that courage to put your credibility on the line? From experience, that is a real tough one to do with such visibility. I will also help you learn why it is IMPOSSIBLE to pass in the blind when you are under "stress". "Stress" (from talking with real experts on the topic) is why your system sounds good one day and not as good another. When it doesn't sound as good that one day, I will show you how no human being can pass. I've could type for another 20 hours. But I don't dare. Only the lurkers really like to learn and they are afraid of the rabid know-it-all posters. I diverge...

I'd be happy to talk on the phone about the topic at hand. I don't have the energy or time for people who assume they know about a topic (by parroting) and tell me how wrong I am. Hence, the intentional ambiguity. Hint: I am tossing you a life-line to avoid embarrassment. Trust me, you don't know if you are going to pass when I interject some stress. That statement alone has 30 paragraphs behind it and is backed up by research I learned about around 2005.

So in the end of the day, I have no preconceived ideals of what what sounds "better" or "worse". That statement of course opens yet another can of worms that parroting members will come after me on. Here in our fine state, we have a fairly large group of us that like to A-B-C-D-E-F different gear. We use to post some of it on AVS but I've explained how worthless it is to argue. So none of us post what we learn. No one is going to change others minds. For instance, did you change your mind Gene? You didn't change minds by typed words. Back to the topic.... Now, more often than not I have resorted to just listening to a couple of different products side by side at the same volume level. Because if the difference is large enough, my ears correlate to what happens when I hook up my QSC ABX box.

So if there are any MN members on here, PM me and you are invited to attend our events. We test in the blind, and we compare all of our notes. Nearly always what one person hears is what th other hears (to varying degrees) Those who attend will learn a lot and we go around to various homes to see what others have learned.

With that said, Gene. Let's say you give your objective fan base some proof you are the real-deal. When would you like me to flyout to test you in the blind? I'll bring one of those HDMI cables I was talking about too. I'll show you how I pass (disclaimer: only with a 12Gbps HDMI cable versus a >>22Gbps cable). So I will only be bringing one cable. The one with the widest bandwidth (by far) in the world. The one you never heard (or we wouldn't be debating) but knew I was full of it. I will show you why people fail in the blind too and why is it such a controversial topic. How about it?

 

[AV_Nut]

What card carrying audiophile uses HDMI for true listening? I don't even have one of those membership cards and even I have a dedicated 2.0 setup sans HDMI. Next you are going to tell us you can see the difference in cables

I'm an audio enthusiast, not an audiophile. I actually enjoy music versus loving my set-up one day and hating it the next.

That said, my main listening system uses a set of Magico's. As you know, hardcore "audiophiles" use USB cables (and yes, people "hear" differences in that cable). An HDMI cable is (more or less) a bunch of USB cables.

 

[AV_Nut]

If you still have one in good condition, I hope you will be open minded enough to get someone who is not a hifi nut to help you set up a spl matched blind test. I would bet you could not tell a difference, not even in your room when both are really set to pure direct and have the amps swapped say 20 times. I can even believe you will hear some difference but not so obvious that you could score better than 50 to 60%.

Hi Peng,
Thanks for the post. More specifically thanks for being civil. I'm NOT saying the AVP versus the 8801 difference is huge. The AVP somehow collapses the instrument placement. At the risk of attaching a word, let's call it lacking "holographics". The AVP is incredibly detailed, and dynamic. No one would ever be disappointed owning one. The 8801 sounds the same but adding in more "holographics". An Audio Research PREAMP that I am very sure measures worse, is the poster-child of "holographics" to my ear. I have not personally heard everything in the market. So I cannot say with certainly if there is a better preamp. But the AR sounds incredible to me ear (only speaking about their preamps). No. I am not a dealer on Audio Research dealer. I would if I could but I am boxed out of the line here in MN.

My broader point is you switched them out, you will simply say "I like that better". Verbally, the feedback is the same from the people who bought them. They hear more "openness" (or attach some flowery audiophile term).

Here is the customers dilemma: He wants XT32 and bought it before the latest release (at $7K retail). The price point was $1K for the upgrade (I don't think you can get it any longer). I send him off a 8801 that sounds more or less identical to with AVP (no matter how much it was over engineered) and the new one has more "holographics or openness" , now he doesn't blow $1K and is down for a month while it is upgraded. As a bonus, he re-sets his 3 year warranty because he bought new. The net-net is he has better sound, is under a new warranty. I sell it for him and the hassle of selling it is on my shoulders. Better yet, I garantee that it sounds "better". If not, I pick it up or I pay for him to ship it back and he has the hassle or re-setting up his prepro. I don't offer this on every product. If I don't hear improvements, why would I want to give a garantee (unless I have an open demo)?

With room correction on the 8801, he is to the next level. Like most of my customers, he didn't give a rats-rearend about 3D. But the new 8801 has it. Also, the 8801 has some nice usable features that is missing in the AVP. Now I think you mentioned that you think the X4000 (in your system) should be equal. If so, buy one. Get rid of your AVP and put some $$'s in your pocket. If you don't hear it a benifit in your room, you should not spend the money on an AVP or even a 8801. You would be crazy to! My goal is to be the least passionate on every topic that I can. I save $$'s! I don't care about clothes, watches, or cars. I care about vacations, decorating, food, education for my kids, and sound quality (and to a MUCH lesser degree, video quality). Guess where I blow my $$'s? Grills, homes, vacations, dental school for my daughter, while I go to Costco or Kohls and drive a 2005 Mitsubishi. Buy a X4000 and move on. It is a wonderful unit. I just pulled out my X4000 because I got a promo on the 4520 that I simply could not pass-up. I diverge...

So there goes the contradiction, you are now saying the overall implementation counts more than the DAC itself and even after adding class A, fully differential, the AVP still ended up sounding so much worse than the 8801? You talked about little crew ups, welll you may be right but the odds are much higher that you are wrong and the people responsible for the R&D and final implementation of their flag ship are right.
So I see that you pre-conditioned/biased your customers. As a result they started right off the bat biased. The only thing that can save them from the initial bias would be blind tests and that I think most people wouldn't bother. You seem to sound convincing, I guess having been in sales for a long time so I am not surprised you had effectively biased them to think the 8801 must sound better and so they ended up with biased conclusion. Of course I am just guessing..

In 2008, the Denon analog guys had less overlap with the Marantz guys. Look at the DSP engine of the 8003 Marantz versus the AVP as well as the analog section. The Denon and Marantz products were very different different. We are talking about a AVP product designed in 2008. Can we agree that even the same team and 5 years of experience will result in (hopefully) advancements (subjective SQ and VQ)?

So a flagship product in 2008 SHOULD be outdone with less $$'s in 2013. The same company how made the 8801 agrees that it sounds better than the 2008 designed AVP. If you talk with the guys at Krell for instance, they put a lot of R&D into the volume control section to make it sound "better". Did the 8801 have a "better" sounding volume control? I don't know. Is the reason why Marantz uses the HDAM on it's version because the designers think it sounds "better". The answer is yes but others (Gene) says no. Not because of what he heard side-by-side but what he measured (IF I understand things he didn't listen side-by-side with specifically an 8801).

But I don't really care. I like the 8801 "better". Nearly all of my customers wanted out of their 5 year old AVP's too. OBVIOUSLY "better' measurements normally mean "better" sound. Re: the 4520 versus the 8801. Let's say for Gene's sake the HDAM's are terrible (he said he didn't like them). So then maybe the bigger supply, better shielding, better signal path, etc on the 8801 makes it sound "better". IF he is correct, then the "worse sounding" 8801 HDAM's still make it "better" than the 4520 preouts.

You see, if people rely on Gene, they would have kept their AVP. I'll re-reminding you a few key people at D&M have told me they too prefer the 8801.

Assuming the NEW AVP was listened to, I hope it sounds "better" than the 8801. But if buyers only go by measurements without listening, then you just led the buyer down the wrong path. Then what good is it to come to a website that measures? Certainly Gene knows that at a certain point, better measurements buys you nothing to your ear. That was my point. More importantly, I can point you to examples of "better" measurements that will result in trade-offs that make the net-net sound worse. Again, why listen to what he measures?

People can call me names and assume I am inexperienced. But there is a reason why I don't ever bother looking at measurements (and tying into my speaker analogy), I have been disappointed too many times.

 

[cpp]

I will always trust my ears first, measurements second...

 

[jinjuku]

I'm an audio enthusiast, not an audiophile. I actually enjoy music versus loving my set-up one day and hating it the next.

That said, my main listening system uses a set of Magico's. As you know, hardcore "audiophiles" use USB cables (and yes, people "hear" differences in that cable). An HDMI cable is (more or less) a bunch of USB cables.

A bunch of USB cables huh? Ugh, where to start.

 

[slipperybidness]

The banana connectors isn't an issue for me since the connectors they come with are easy to use. The 4.1 is rated for 200 watts continous and 600 peak.

So far zero degradtion of SQ to my ears. It has autoformers in it somewhat like the Mcintosh amps and I don't think they have affected SQ at all.

Impedance-matching transformers?

 

[fuzz092888]

Impedance-matching transformers?

Yep. Sort of like the Mc, you have to configure jumpers inside the unit depending on the impedance of the speakers you're using.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, I would definitely take the Marantz 8801 over the Simaudio.

If the 8801 costs the same as the AVP, it would be hard to take as well. But since it is a lot less expensive, I can see why people would get the 8801 because it is a very fine pre-pro regardless of price.