Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

[AV_Nut]

I know more people and Denon/Marantz than you probably realize like the engineers actually designing the stuff. The 8801 is a fine processor but it's not meant to be a direct replacement for the AVP, especially in the analog section.

I can't say too much about what I know of Denon/Marantz future roadmaps but you can rest assured there is an AVP replacement coming down the pipe. I'm sure when it does come out you will be singing a different tune as well

I am also aware that they are working on an AVP replacement Gene. I fully predict it will sound better than the current AVP. It almost has to. I was always under impressed with the AVP. It was cemented when we had a shootout back in the 2008 era and people picked it 2nd to the last (we had around 5 prepro's set up on that night). The demo was the last one I sold. We often do listening tests side-by-side all at one sitting. The AVP wasn't "bad". But the "holographics" (if I may) were collapsed in comparison to the 2008 designed Marantz AV8003 ($2600 retail). Hence I recommended the Marantz. I always preferred selling the AVP because I made more $'s.

On paper, the AVP should be incredible. But it's obvious that at least one section of the design was less than ideal that brought down the sum of the entire SQ. Putting it another way, if the design does everything right and they pooch it in the volume control section or the excruciating long signal path by using a card based approach or less than ideal signal capacitors or an under whelming control of the jitter, the net result is the Class A output / differential designed won't overcome the short comings. I don't where they didn't get it right and I really don't care. I care about the end result.

At the same token, if the 8801 (on paper) uses an lower caliber DAC that happens to sound better or if they used a better (fill in the blank) design approach on several fronts, the net-net will result in the AV8801 to sound subjectively better as an aggregate. Class A output / differential designed or not.

I have explained to every customer who traded in his AVP that the 8801 should NOT sound better but I conclude they will hear the same thing as others. As I said earlier, I give them the 8801 and ask them to give me back the one that sound worse. I've taken in trade all but one. One guys room sucked and I explained what he needed to do to improve it. He could not hear a difference and didn't want to "lose money that he invested" on the AVP. The other 10 heard what I heard.

People can approach their purchasing decision another way. They can rely on a website like yours who takes measurements. You have convinced yourself that the AVP is superior and people will trust your measurements and opinion. My approach is different. Logic tells me what is better on paper but I refuse to let that get in the way of what sounds better to me. That is why I called the measurements "worthless". I know that they are not "worthless" but certainly the only test that really matter is how it sounds in your system.

The topic reminds me of a conversation with the head speaker designer at Energy speakers. He went over all of the incredible firsts that he used on the Veritas series. He explained the mechanical bracing in the back of the magnet, the low resonate rubber top, the counter wound coil for a more linear response etc. He went on for a solid 1/2 an hour. I was DEEPLY impressed with his design approach so I brought it a pair. In short, I was under whelmed. The speaker worked on paper but not in practice.

SO it really doesn't matter if the 8801 was never meant to be a replacement. It sounds BETTER. Did you ever do a head-to-head sonic comparison? I cannot imagine that you did. I would have to search hard to find someone who likes the AVP better sonically.

 

[AV_Nut]

I think if is mostly in your head as those guys at Marantz might have previously planted seeds in it. In recent years I went from the 3805 to 4308, AV7005, then AV8801 (for now) and did notice an overall improvement in HT sound each time. In pure direct, no I cannot say the 8801 sounds better than any of the Denons. In my current set ups, including two separae two channel systems, the prepro, preamps and amps are clearly not the bottom neck, but the source media and the speakers are but I do feel the speakers are pretty close to the point of diminishing return, at least in my rooms. If I had bought my AV8801 from you I wouldn't ask for a 4520 trade in either, unless you pay shipping both ways, then I probably would.. I think the trouble of shipping a heavy box back and forth is at least one of the possible reasons why people stuck with what they bought regardless of your seemingly generous offer.

I've taken in a lot of 7005 and 8003 trades. Maybe 20-25ish.. I'd guess the bulk of people think they have gone forward excluding the better room correction. Another smaller group is deeply impressed with XT32 and that's about it. For the record, IMHO, XT32 is the 1st time I engaged room correction on my left and right (usually I used the Marantz or Denon's bypass option). I hated how the other versions rolled off the top "air". But in certain situations, I literally cannot hear any differences with any amps and any preamps because of the room. At the same token, I've heard some nice positive differences and the customer didn't hear a thing. Therefore I "qualify" people this way: If they swapped out their amp or preamp in the past and heard positive of negative subjective shifts in THEIR room, then the SHOULD hear improvements. If not, then use the preouts of the X4000 and call it a day.

 

[AV_Nut]

One more time

I've noticed you are 3 or 4 times as to who I am. I'd be happy to share. But 1st, why is it important for you to ask so many times?

It seems like I walked into a room where an argument was already going on. So forgive me if I sounded negative or controversial.

 

[AV_Nut]

Actually, I think the BDP-105 sounds better when plugged directly into my amp, but it is just too limited;
I like having a volume knob

- Rich

Rich. Try this one out. I'll send you off a Wireword Series 7 Starlight HDMI cable. The bandwidth is >>20Gbps. All of the typical overpriced HDMI wires might clip out at 16Gbps. The WW has a patent on the topology to get that bandwidth. I'm not here to profit. So I will sell you one at my cost and you pay the $10 in freight. Report back.

I'm not a big believer in wires (even though some positively "measure" better). I will bet you will get back the resolution that you are missing.

Here is what my ears tell me. With room correction disengaged and setting up left and right to "large". Almost every single DVD player sounds "better" with analog in. But it isn't the Oppo that is the reason for the improvement. I hear it with a $99 Panny (when they had analog out).

There is a white paper as to why you need a lot wider bandwidth that is speced out. What I do know is I can pass in the blind on higher resolution music. To my ears, it isn't subtle.

 

[fuzz092888]

I've noticed you are 3 or 4 times as to who I am. I'd be happy to share. But 1st, why is it important for you to ask so many times?

It seems like I walked into a room where an argument was already going on. So forgive me if I sounded negative or controversial.

I didn't ask who you are. I asked where you work as a dealer, and I'm not the only one to ask. This is the Internet and anyone can come on and claim anything . If you'd rather not share publicly there's always a PM.

 

[gene]

I am also aware that they are working on an AVP replacement Gene. I fully predict it will sound better than the current AVP. It almost has to. I was always under impressed with the AVP. It was cemented when we had a shootout back in the 2008 era and people picked it 2nd to the last (we had around 5 prepro's set up on that night). The demo was the last one I sold. We often do listening tests side-by-side all at one sitting. The AVP wasn't "bad". But the "holographics" (if I may) were collapsed in comparison to the 2008 designed Marantz AV8003 ($2600 retail). Hence I recommended the Marantz. I always preferred selling the AVP because I made more $'s.

On paper, the AVP should be incredible. But it's obvious that at least one section of the design was less than ideal that brought down the sum of the entire SQ. Putting it another way, if the design does everything right and they pooch it in the volume control section or the excruciating long signal path by using a card based approach or less than ideal signal capacitors or an under whelming control of the jitter, the net result is the Class A output / differential designed won't overcome the short comings. I don't where they didn't get it right and I really don't care. I care about the end result.

At the same token, if the 8801 (on paper) uses an lower caliber DAC that happens to sound better or if they used a better (fill in the blank) design approach on several fronts, the net-net will result in the AV8801 to sound subjectively better as an aggregate. Class A output / differential designed or not.

I have explained to every customer who traded in his AVP that the 8801 should NOT sound better but I conclude they will hear the same thing as others. As I said earlier, I give them the 8801 and ask them to give me back the one that sound worse. I've taken in trade all but one. One guys room sucked and I explained what he needed to do to improve it. He could not hear a difference and didn't want to "lose money that he invested" on the AVP. The other 10 heard what I heard.

People can approach their purchasing decision another way. They can rely on a website like yours who takes measurements. You have convinced yourself that the AVP is superior and people will trust your measurements and opinion. My approach is different. Logic tells me what is better on paper but I refuse to let that get in the way of what sounds better to me. That is why I called the measurements "worthless". I know that they are not "worthless" but certainly the only test that really matter is how it sounds in your system.

The topic reminds me of a conversation with the head speaker designer at Energy speakers. He went over all of the incredible firsts that he used on the Veritas series. He explained the mechanical bracing in the back of the magnet, the low resonate rubber top, the counter wound coil for a more linear response etc. He went on for a solid 1/2 an hour. I was DEEPLY impressed with his design approach so I brought it a pair. In short, I was under whelmed. The speaker worked on paper but not in practice.

SO it really doesn't matter if the 8801 was never meant to be a replacement. It sounds BETTER. Did you ever do a head-to-head sonic comparison? I cannot imagine that you did. I would have to search hard to find someone who likes the AVP better sonically.

Your comment about the AVP jitter is interesting. Did you measure it with a logic analyzer? Oh wait, you don't believe in measurements or specs but it's convenient for you to sight an actual measurable phenomenon as the culprit for your dissatisfaction with the product.

How does "Jitter" affect the analog outputs of the processor, especially in pure direct mode?

I wonder how exactly your A/Bing the processors. Are you setting up a switch between the two products so you can instantly compare them? If so, are both units level matched, playing the same source, using the same source device, using the same processing modes and level matched?

Just how are you structuring an "upgrade" of a $7500 AVP to a Marantz 8801 with 1/2 the retail price? And, what are you doing with all of the trade in AVPs that you claim are sonically inferior?

This whole story is very interesting. Believable it is not, but interesting it is

 

[AV_Nut]

I didn't ask who you are. I asked where you work as a dealer, and I'm not the only one to ask. This is the Internet and anyone can come on and claim anything . If you'd rather not share publicly there's always a PM.

I mentioned earlier that people don't read other peoples posts.

I said it in my 1st posts on this board. I also said I was a former Simaudio dealer.

If you want another hour of other examples, email me. I own Sound Video here in MN. This time don't think that 5 year old information is "new". I'll give you the scoop before the following decade is finished.

Steve

 

[AV_Nut]

Talking about amp, Sim's monoblock looks really impressive with the 2X1.3 kVA transformer, I mean two for a monoblock!! I wonder if they are made from two Halo JCs.

To my ear, the JC's and the Simaudio amps are closely related sonically. Both are low filtration designs (DC coupled) and wide bandwidth. They are clear, clean and open and can handle any load you though at them.

 

[PENG]

UOTE=AV_Nut;999286]I am also aware that they are working on an AVP replacement Gene.

I thought I read on this same site not long ago, don't remember who reported that Denon is getting away from separates going forward leaving that to Marantz. So why the change of heart? I surely hope you and Gene are right about this and I hope this time around they take advantage of some synergies too.

On paper, the AVP should be incredible. But it's obvious that at least one section of the design was less than ideal that brought down the sum of the entire SQ. Putting it another way, if the design does everything right and they pooch it in the volume control section or the excruciating long signal path by using a card based approach or less than ideal signal capacitors or an under whelming control of the jitter, the net result is the Class A output / differential designed won't overcome the short comings. I don't where they didn't get it right and I really don't care. I care about the end result.

If you still have one in good condition, I hope you will be open minded enough to get someone who is not a hifi nut to help you set up a spl matched blind test. I would bet you could not tell a difference, not even in your room when both are really set to pure direct and have the amps swapped say 20 times. I can even believe you will hear some difference but not so obvious that you could score better than 50 to 60%.

At the same token, if the 8801 (on paper) uses an lower caliber DAC that happens to sound better or if they used a better (fill in the blank) design approach on several fronts, the net-net will result in the AV8801 to sound subjectively better as an aggregate. Class A output / differential designed or not.

So there goes the contradiction, you are now saying the overall implementation counts more than the DAC itself and even after adding class A, fully differential, the AVP still ended up sounding so much worse than the 8801? You talked about little crew ups, welll you may be right but the odds are much higher that you are wrong and the people responsible for the R&D and final implementation of their flag ship are right. Since your qualified your previous statement about specs, we can agree on specs on paper don't count as much as the end results but to me the end results are the verified (such as by Gene using precision instruments and sound methodology) specs by properly conducted lab measurements, and with due respect, not by Mr. AV_Nut's and his fan club customers ears. Gene and other lab measurements are closer to facts than opinions, yours are just opinions albeit an educated one.

I have explained to every customer who traded in his AVP that the 8801 should NOT sound better but I conclude they will hear the same thing as others. As I said earlier, I give them the 8801 and ask them to give me back the one that sound worse. I've taken in trade all but one. One guys room sucked and I explained what he needed to do to improve it. He could not hear a difference and didn't want to "lose money that he invested" on the AVP. The other 10 heard what I heard.

So I see that you pre-conditioned/biased your customers. As a result they started right off the bat biased. The only thing that can save them from the initial bias would be blind tests and that I think most people wouldn't bother. You seem to sound convincing, I guess having been in sales for a long time so I am not surprised you had effectively biased them to think the 8801 must sound better and so they ended up with biased conclusion. Of course I am just guessing..

People can approach their purchasing decision another way. They can rely on a website like yours who takes measurements. You have convinced yourself that the AVP is superior and people will trust your measurements and opinion. My approach is different. Logic tells me what is better on paper but I refuse to let that get in the way of what sounds better to me. That is why I called the measurements "worthless". I know that they are not "worthless" but certainly the only test that really matter is how it sounds in your system.

How it sounds in your system is fully subjected to your bias. Given the choice, imho objectively oriented people really should believe more in the measurements published on this site than the opinions of dealers. How many people have done blind tests, let alone DBTs, probably fewer than 0.0000% right? And those who did, most likely did not do it right, according to you even Denon could not design and build their amps right so logically you can believe the average people would not be able to do their DBT properly at home, even if they tried they might just have screwed up some little things.

The topic reminds me of a conversation with the head speaker designer at Energy speakers. He went over all of the incredible firsts that he used on the Veritas series. He explained the mechanical bracing in the back of the magnet, the low resonate rubber top, the counter wound coil for a more linear response etc. He went on for a solid 1/2 an hour. I was DEEPLY impressed with his design approach so I brought it a pair. In short, I was under whelmed. The speaker worked on paper but not in practice.

That's yet another opinion, like it is mine that they sound better than speakers that cost almost twice as much such as the Paradigm S6. And before we go on, what is your reference for SQ, mine's live classical concerts and I am aware of the "room" effect so I tried my best to take that into account when comparing things in my own rooms.

 

[AV_Nut]

Your comment about the AVP jitter is interesting. Did you measure it with a logic analyzer? Oh wait, you don't believe in measurements or specs but it's convenient for you to sight an actual measurable phenomenon as the culprit for your dissatisfaction with the product.

How does "Jitter" affect the analog outputs of the processor, especially in pure direct mode?

I wonder how exactly your A/Bing the processors. Are you setting up a switch between the two products so you can instantly compare them? If so, are both units level matched, playing the same source, using the same source device, using the same processing modes and level matched?

Just how are you structuring an "upgrade" of a $7500 AVP to a Marantz 8801 with 1/2 the retail price? And, what are you doing with all of the trade in AVPs that you claim are sonically inferior?

This whole story is very interesting. Believable it is not, but interesting it is

Now now Gene. Let's be nice.

Did you notice how I said "or" in each possible reason? We can cut down on paragraphs if we all learn to read the post.

Re: Jitter on the outputs. Who said anything about that? I surely didn't.

Re: measurements. I'll leave it up to the designers. I'll let them assign which better measured specifications matter. I'll then judge their end product for SQ.

As to how to I sell the used product. Go on Audiogon and see if any AVP's come up for sale. I'll be getting in another XT32. Anybody want a inferior sounding product for $2900. They seem to love them in China. Of course I have them wire me the money 1st.

Does that sound believable to you?

Re: setup. Level matched with a volt meter on the speaker terminals. 16 sets judged it and reported what they heard and tabulated. Note: there was near zero correlation to price.

I have to run. Off to the airport.

 

[fuzz092888]

I mentioned earlier that people don't read other peoples posts.

I said it in my 1st posts on this board. I also said I was a former Simaudio dealer.

Well there's been so much nonsense in this thread, you'll have to forgive me for not re-reading it all with a fine tooth comb

 

[RichB]

Rich. Try this one out. I'll send you off a Wireword Series 7 Starlight HDMI cable. The bandwidth is >>20Gbps. All of the typical overpriced HDMI wires might clip out at 16Gbps. The WW has a patent on the topology to get that bandwidth. I'm not here to profit. So I will sell you one at my cost and you pay the $10 in freight. Report back.

I'm not a big believer in wires (even though some positively "measure" better). I will bet you will get back the resolution that you are missing.

Here is what my ears tell me. With room correction disengaged and setting up left and right to "large". Almost every single DVD player sounds "better" with analog in. But it isn't the Oppo that is the reason for the improvement. I hear it with a $99 Panny (when they had analog out).

There is a white paper as to why you need a lot wider bandwidth that is speced out. What I do know is I can pass in the blind on higher resolution music. To my ears, it isn't subtle.

I accept.

You should know, I current use Monoprice Redmere cables everywhere and I could not tell them from the high-bandwidth conventional cables I had before.

My experience is that HDMI is an inferior transmission mechanism for LPCM the receivers and preamps I have owned or own. This include the Onkyo PR-SC5507, Marantz AV8801, and the Yamaha 820.

I have setup the Pronto Remote to switch between all inputs 7.1, XLR, COAX, and HDMI.
This is not double blind testing.

I use the Ophthalmologist method: "This one" or "This one"
Fast switching is best. It not work well for prescriptions if it took 30 seconds to change lenses
It is not just auditory memory that is fleeting

So, send me that bad-boy and I will put it through its paces.

- Rich

 

[gene]

Now now Gene. Let's be nice.

Did you notice how I said "or" in each possible reason? We can cut down on paragraphs if we all learn to read the post.

Re: Jitter on the outputs. Who said anything about that? I surely didn't.

Re: measurements. I'll leave it up to the designers. I'll let them assign which better measured specifications matter. I'll then judge their end product for SQ.

As to how to I sell the used product. Go on Audiogon and see if any AVP's come up for sale. I'll be getting in another XT32. Anybody want a inferior sounding product for $2900. They seem to love them in China. Of course I have them wire me the money 1st.

Does that sound believable to you?

Re: setup. Level matched with a volt meter on the speaker terminals. 16 sets judged it and reported what they heard and tabulated. Note: there was near zero correlation to price.

I have to run. Off to the airport.

Audiogon has one AVP for sale with a $5k asking price and the seller is in the USA not Mexico.

and I ask again, were you able to switch between the processors instantaneously? What kind of switch box was used. Where was the configuration of the processors? What type of source material was used? So much ambiguity but I expect nothing less from the prior posts you've made.

Oh, and did you use different HDMI cables since you can clearly hear differences in HDMI cables too, LOL.

 

[jinjuku]

What card carrying audiophile uses HDMI for true listening? I don't even have one of those membership cards and even I have a dedicated 2.0 setup sans HDMI. Next you are going to tell us you can see the difference in cables

 

[Adam]

What card carrying audiophile uses HDMI for true listening? I don't even have one of those membership cards and even I have a dedicated 2.0 setup sans HDMI. Next you are going to tell us you can see the difference in cables

I use HDMI, so I guess I'm not an audiophile. Well, and I can easily see the difference in cables... it helps me not jam an HDMI cable into an RCA jack.

 

[RichB]

I use HDMI, so I guess I'm not an audiophile. Well, and I can easily see the difference in cables... it helps me not jam an HDMI cable into an RCA jack.

I start with the braille method because if that does not work, I have to go get a flashlight and glasses

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Oh, and did you use different HDMI cables since you can clearly hear differences in HDMI cables too, LOL.

I would be happy if LPCM over HDMI sounded the same as COAX with the AV8801.
Same source, same DACs, same outputs, different result.
It is not very difficult to test.

It is too much of a PIA to compare HDMI to HDMI cables and I would never bother.
If I get AV_NUTS cable, I would just compare it to the COAX and if it sounds the same, that would be a first.


- Rich

 

[Adam]

I start with the braille method because if that does not work, I have to go get a flashlight and glasses

- Rich

Yeah, I do that, too. Anymore, I have a picture of the back panel up on my iPad while I feel around.

FYI, that method can get tingly if you do it with power cords. One would think that I would have learned after the second time...

 

[slipperybidness]

You can think what you want about my technical ability and my motivations. You have yet proved my point to another level. You MEASURE and I listen. Gene. Set down the scope probe.


I have sent off an 8801 to every AVP customer with a garantee that I take it back if they don't hear it sounds better. They ALL have stuck. That is because the 8801 factually sounds better. Meanwhile, you can pontificate why it is superior. You are leading people down the wrong path with your approach. My advice: go listen between the two and get ready to eat crow!

Oh. Ask the folks at D&M which sounds better. Again, my ears agree with theirs.

If these were not double-blind tests, then this is absolutely, 100% useless.

Human bias is a biotch to get around!

 

[agarwalro]

I would be happy if LPCM over HDMI sounded the same as COAX with the AV8801.
Same source, same DACs, same outputs, different result.

I missed this if you mentioned it... What player are you using? Why not bitstream over HDMI with the 8801 doing all processing?